On the future of "Israel" and "Palestine"

Hello All.
I promise that this will be my last thread for a while, too much politics caused me to neglect my sites, which feed me (my only occupation).

There are two reasons I am writing this:
1) There have been to many (very sad) posts by Israel haters which deny its right to exist.
2) The Conclusion I expect one to draw from this thread, is given see below at the end.

We start with a small history lesson.....It relates to the thread Palestine? Excuse me! by uploas....

If any of the details below is inaccurate, I would be very glad if you would correct me, especially the many Israel haters around.. (to whom I forgive naturally. Its very hard to think when you see and hear about the terrible sacrifice taken by the palestinians, who happen to have an effective propaganda, enhancement by the good people in the west that just want "justice" and care about peoples lives, yet dont have the time to learn a thing or two on this very complicated conflict...).

Palestine is the historical name for the piece of land, on which today the state of Israel exists. why?
1) This stands on the definition of the term "palestine" in wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

2) I have a very "knowledged" friend who told me the first piece of paper in world history, in any language, on which the term "palestinian people" appears as is, was written late into the 20th century. Unfortunately I forgot which/what paper is it .... but if you don't believe me... have a look at the Balfour Declaration (I hope you guys, especially the Israel haters, know what that is...). There, there are "jews" and

but not "palestinians". If you read more about the term "palestine" in wikipedia and look at references therein, you will understand that before Israel there were no "palestinians". They were just "the arabs that live in palestine". This is the reason that the saying "palestine never existed", is true.
The term was "revived" by the various migrating arab tribes who found themselves "stuck" in palestine during the great events of the previous century.
a small p.s. : I hope you Israel haters have heared of the Peel Commission. If not, be my guest, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Commission where, also in 1937, there are "jews" and "arabs of palestine". but not palestinians.

3) When the jewish authors (i.e. nobelist S.Y.Agnon) in the diaspora were writing about this land, the 2000 year old dream of the jewish nation, they referred to it as "Palestine", "zion", but never Israel. The name Israel emerged in the zionist political ambition to "erase" the 2000 year of diaspora and build a "new image" for the jewish people. Its like a marketing trick. In the meeting of the jewish first state councel, who made the declaration of Independence, there were many delegates who did not want to rename "Palestine" (the historical name for this piece of land) to "Israel" (a religious synonym to the word "jewish"). It would have been very interesting to see what name the "stuck" arab migrating tribes which are now the proud and rightful "palestinian people" would have picked for themselves in that case....

But this is not only nomeclature. This has always historical implications:
In the war of independence Israel had prevailed. Back in 1948, there was no U.S., U.K., USSR to back us up. How did we then defeat the arabs of palestine (what later to be called simply "palestinians"), and the armies of egypt, jordan, syria, and lebanon?

The orthodox zionists like to say, that it was a 20th century miracle by the gods of Israel. I don't prescribe to this view . The reason accepted worldwide by historians is the following:
The lack of common origin (and even a common religious) of the arabs of palestine is responsible for the fact that altough better in numbers AND BETTER ARMED (yep, this was the only time), they could not win, simply because they had no focused, targeted, leadership. In some places, the egyptians were fighting the palestinians arabs to gain land, or the jordanians, or two palestinian tribes were fighting each other.

Only after the "nakba" (the catastrophe), the "arabs of palestine" united against the common enemy: Israel, lost the family characteristic (or partially lost), and became one entity "the palestinian people", sharing common faith and identity. However, 1948 would not be the last time that the arabs of palestine butcher one another: in the 2006 Coupe of Gaza by the Hamas, 206 members of the rival "Fatah" movement, a secular more practical movement, were murdered.

BUT ALL OF THIS IS ACADEMIC AND NOT IMPORTANT
And this is actually why I am investing the time to write this post for you folks:
Just like you try to undermine the rightfulness of the jewish state in palestine, called "Israel", to exist, I could do exactly the same, and undermine the rightfulness of the "palestinian" state in palestine, to exist.

(And I didn't even mention the many pages that the jews wrote thoughout history in the books of history and science, in comparison with not even a single line by the recently born "palestinian". Well maybe they have a small word: the first occasional suicide bombings by a political/terrorist/freedom (read whatever you want) movement as a legitimate method of armed struggle was that of the Hamas in the mid 90's, later joined by the Fatah, and even allowing women and teeagers to join, yeah, why not.....)

And now we reach to the reason I have written this post.
I dare not say that the palestinians do not deserve their own country. You see, its not about "who is right", and "who is wrong". Both sides are right. Both sides are wrong.
I have my first kid coming to the world soon and I really wouldn't like him to die in the next wars and their results.
There is an existing situation: The state of Israel, and the palestinian people, now a well define people and entity.
Its time to create creative solutions for the future, and not look at old maps, cite worthless quotes from important or non-important persons. etc'.
The palestinians should look themselves at the mirror: See the hate education, especially things like this, see that the heros of their society are not scientists, not singers, and not even soccer players, but people who lost the meaning of life and took on a suicide bombing with the goal of murder as many people as possible, etc' etc'
We should look ourselves in the mirror as well: The abuse during the occupation and the violence. The mesianic settlers who act with no limitation like they are the sons of god, the isolated provocating settlements, etc' etc'

Cheers,
Moshe Dubman (phD), Israel.

 

Well said

I agree as well.

 

Thanks lemon.

Very little responses... I am surprised of the Israel haters....
No more pathetic worthless quotes and citation of x or y?
No more links to articles found on one-sided negligible propaganda websites?
No more youtube videos and other kinds of "proof" ?...
phew.

I had some more thought am I bet that If the jews had decided to call Israel "Palestine", then the palestinians would have picked "canaanites" as a name for themselves. They teach in their schools falsified history, that they are the offspings of the cnaanites who ruled the land before the 1st jewish kingdom....

 

Ziya? Did anyone saw Ziya? we really need him!
we haven't got Anti-Israel threat for 17 hours!

Couldn't agree more.

 

and there is a solution for every single outstanding issues between israel and palestanians. it is very easy to get to a point when 75% of each side can agree on but practically impossible to get to 85%. but i guess that is for everything in life. isn't it?

 

Unfortunately not my friend. In the middle east, it is impossible to reach a simple majority of 50%.... not to mention 75%.
The palestinians and the Israelis are still not ready for peace.

The situation at the moment is the following:

An Israeli prime minister can not get elected today unless he says something like "I am ready to make big sacrifice, also in territory, for the sake of peace" (what is not valid for the palestinians, who elected the Hamas the branch of Iran in our region....). The majority of the Israelis agree for the establishment of a palestinian state on the 1967 borders, including 2-4% "land exchange" to compensate them for the area taken by the big settlements near the 1967 borders.
For the palestinians, this is unacceptable, as they also demand the return of the refugees to the pre-1967 territories, which is out of the question for us. This is since it would mean to reserve the course of history. There are many cases in world history of populations that were moved or removed, peace came, although they never returned.

They are demand, naturally, for some reason, half of Jerusalem, that also makes a big problem among the jewish population, but to my view here we are more likely to compromise, but not in the refugee question.

The question of the refugees is the most important obstacle for peace in our generation.

 

we start from the refugees.
refugees are the key to making this work.to solve the refugee problems we must look at it in a different way.
within the first few months of the start of negotiations, there should be a start of a massive construction of apartment buildings in gaza and westbank. the amount of these constructions should be huge enough to provide housing for all palestanians refugees all 6 or 10 million of them. arabs and europeans and US should provide financing. even iran if they want to. the israelis should help palestanians pressure arabs and europeans to get enough financing and become partners in making the housing required for these people.
each returning family should get an apartment in the future palestine ,instead of the land they owned before the start of this mess and the deeds to theose properties should be turned over to israel at the finalization of the peace agreement.
i would start at and around bethlaham. i can go in more detail if you want me to. I think this approach can satisfy both side

=======================================
the most important thing is for both side to stop arguing about who is at fault for their lack of success as this is a waste of time.
i have a solution to every single issue. not the best solution but a solution that is 75% acceptable.

 

Pizzaman, you seem to have missing the point.
When the palestinians talk about "return of refugees", they do not mean gaza and the west bank. They also mean Haifa, Tel Aviv, and the galillee. And for us this is unacceptable.

You must be kidding. Iran's goal, out of their fundamentalist islamic ideaology, is to make Israel disappear. They don't really care about the palestinians.

 

i am not missing the point. once there is an offer of a nice apartment in west bank and it reaches refugee population in syria and lebenon and other places, they will create the necessary pressure on the idiological leaders. they want out of the camps and a normal life. let them see a way out. in the mean time you will create jobs in the territories which will keep the people busy and their stomach full. you give them something and they will have something to lose. also this way they feel they are compensated for what they lost. now they have a choice of a dream vs the neightmare that they live in. once they see a chance to move into a nice apt. have a normal life, they will agree. majority of them. 75%.
on iran.
their goal is to become major player in ME. our goal should be to let them do that in a way that is beneficial for the rest of the world also.actually if you go back few years, you will see that they were dealing with israel behind the scene at the beginning of their revolution when they were fighting iraq. israel actually supplied them with arms. iran contra rings a bell?
iran and israel are natural friends. now that bibi is pm he will have the chance to deal with them in a political way behind the scene and reach a deal, as there is less pressure from the right.
read some of these here. you probably are too young to remember them as they were happening. i am not. start from the second entery. the first one is kind of irelevent to what we are talking about
http://www.historycommons.org/searc...tles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=Go

 

i see more blood to palestinian by the hand of israel
look at new israelian government and we will see the future

 

What's the problem? Liberman? He keep saying that Palestinian state is possible and reachable.

 

pizzaman, I TOTALLY disagree.

In camp-david 1999, Arafat was offered a palestinian state in the 1967 borders, with refugees returning only to Gaza & West bank (which is the max we can offer them, still today). He refused, and he said something like "I am a dead person if I sign this" (unfortunately I couldn't find a trustworthy link but I remember that very well).
I am maybe younger than you (31), but I live for some time in the middle east and there is a deeply rooted thing in the arab culture which the westerns can not perceive, it is called: "honor". And it is more important than money. An arab who was deported from his house prefer to live in a slum back where he was born than to live in a 1mil$ villa in some other place. The grandparents give the keys to the houses in Haifa to the sons and grandsons, until "return home" will be acheived. nothing more, nothing less.

I came to realize this is the last 3 years where I lived in Switzerland for my phD. Many little Israelis realize this. The thing is, that when I spoke with the Swiss who oppose Israel, they made many statements similar to yours. They think, that the palestinians are pretty much Swiss, but just speak a different language. You might think that the average palestinian is like a U.S. rancher, all he needs is independence, territory, and money. Foreigners who do not live in the middle east have a big gap in understand the cultural patterns that play a crucial role in the political developments. We, the Israelis, have also cultural defects which contribute to the impotent peace process.

The future looks doom in my generation, unfortunately.

True, But:

Yes, we were good friends, and Israel has nothing against the Iranian people, and vise versa
But the Iranian people is not the one who is in charge in Iran. There is a very primitive cruel fundamental religious dictatorship there, composed of people who see themselves as the messengers of god of earth (esp' Achmedinjad. Look at his face when he speaks. His expression is like "I am the new saviour of humanity). They will not hesitate to commit highly irresponsible actions, like religious people usually do. They threat, declare, black on white, numerous times (latest one in Switzerland couple of days ago) that they act with the goal to destroy Israel. I don't know what authority you have to dismiss they own declarations, but for me, as an Israeli, I have no other choice but to belive them. The Iranian nuclear ambition must be stopped at all cause. The europeans and Russia is the obstacle for this at the moment.

 

You mean your version of history, right? And anyone that think diferently than you is Israeli hater,right?
An example of how you "honest" guys work:

It's nothing but pure lie. Show me any source that will confirm your claim. Anything at all or stop posting false facts and than when someone disagree with you call him Israeli hater.
That's the main reason I stopped posted here in first place.

 

liberman has sayed that israel must elimenate the arabs and remove them from their land
he has sayed that israel must attack the high dam in egypt
with liberman there is no peace but more blood and kill
of course he is abig problem

 

you are the one that is wrong. all people are the same. they all want to win and nobody wants to be forced in an agreement.
what i am saying is a lot different than they can return to gaza and westbank.
i think that there should be apartments made for them as compensation for the land that they have lost. this allows them to win their right and keep their honor.while israel will not loose and won't be the one that pays for this compensation.
if you really want to have peace with them you have to consider their feeling. both side must feel that they have gotten most of what they wanted and this can be done. a nice new apartment in a nice building is a good way of inticing them to trade their old land. again this is a very easy thing to start. israel must ask mitchel to get the saudis to put a lot of money in the housing in the palestanian territories immediatly. start housing projects immediatly. and the apartments have to be nice and beautiful. they can be traded with palestanians that live there already and then extended to the ones that are outside. it can start on a voluntary bases throughout middle east. i am sure they will be some takers. as the time passes and people see an oppurtunity there will be more and more. the the other phases of peace will take hold also.

take a look here
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IH30Ak04.html
at this time ahmadinejad was not the president of iran and he has not have said those words. i do not know how much the nuclear issue was at that time either.
take a look here
http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2006/October/Biblical/index.html
israel relashoinship[in comparison to now] with komeini's govt
but lets keep this on the israeli-palestanian issues

 

Not an Israel HATER here, just another JUSTICE SEEKER !

Palestinians should decide what land they want to give Israel, not the other way round.

 

as i said there is a solution that 75% of both side can agree on. this is one aspect of the peace deal and i think that 75% of palestanian will agree to accepting the deal that i have.
it is very important to accept that if the great majority of both side do not agree there will be no peace. so the compromise position is not the best position to reach but an acceptable one and in that only to 75% of people.
i am not looking fr justice either just peace

 

I 100% agree. Anything that brings an honest and lasting peace agreement between the nations and stops the unneccessary (and often cruel) deaths would be absolutely fantastic!

 

we don't really care about the land (but east Jerusalem), we just want them to give up terror. and if US and the precious EU countries won't get involved, this conflict will continue for years..

 

If you think about it it's not so surprising since the topic is talked about like every month, every years, since so many time. Sometimes you have a peace truce, then no more, then a "war" then what not.
honestly the only one concerned are maybe israelis and palestinian, and then all the other people in the world who identifies with one side or the other.

But for an outsider like me, maybe you would call me an israel-hater since I'm not for israel, but then others could call me a palestine-hater because I feel the same about their side, except that they are the weakest in the story, but that's the only difference.
So for an outsider like me, I'm not interested in discussing of this topic because both sides are obviously so stupid that they can't solve this problem and they've been living it for decades... So I don't feel like I should waste any time on thinking about THEIR problem that they want it to become mine, it's not Just continue killing each other because obviously they enjoy it despite saying the contrary.

Anyway, other people very interested in the topic will find me stupid, so be it hahaha