What is the point? Hopefully, they are converting to mainstream Islam and not some demented subset that believes in wife beating. I have no problem with women converting to Islam. But if they convert and know they will be beaten then they are just ignorant fodder. There are also tons of women who date and marry convicted murderers in prison. Just because someone does something, like converting to a group that condones any act of violence against her or marrying a murderer, does somehow turn the act into something that makes sense. Logical arguments has never been your strong suit, eh?
It sounds like you WANT the Quran to say you can beat your wife, as you are finding as much info as you can to back this up. Where does it explicitly say you can/should beat your wife? Sadly for you it does not say you should beat your wife. I know it speaks of looking after and respecting women because they are the bearer of life, not beating them because you are an authoritative bully.
eh? did you convert to Canada now? anyway.. European women are reverting to Islam in a way that been described by Christians as: The point browntwn which you failed to grasp as usual, is simple, what these women know about Islam is different than what biased media, hatemongers, and Islam haters say about Islam, do you really think these women would escape a religion or a community that treats them as toys to please those big kids there ("men" in case you failed to grasp this one too), to a religion or community that treat them as punch bags for men? and you think they did not meet with somebody like you, or the OP? or people fulled of hatred against Islam and Muslims, who try to bad repute Islam always, and make women & others fear it, I m sure they met so many, in fact, hate mongers was the reason for them to want to know Islam more, but they are smart, they do not take your word, or my word, or anybody's word for granted, they check by themselves, and what they find, is as one of these women described:
You know what? I think I will start testing your honesty, this might get interesting. First off your quote was attributed to Christians, I was thinking how a Christian would say that unless you were talking about a religious organization like Catholicism, but nope, just a government official who is probably worried about islam taking over France: Just in case you are so brainwashed that you don't know left from right; just because they aren't a muslim it does not make them in any way a Christian. You don't become a Christian by birth or by birthplace. (I am beginning to feel like a broken record.)
oh, so he was a Muslim? and worried about European women reverting to Islam? hmm, maybe.. or maybe an Atheist and the site (Christian Science Monitor) adopted his views? whatever.. it seems that the site (Christian Science Monitor) shares his worries, that's why they made this article about this topic, interviewed the man, had it there on there site,
Try it again, here is the quote and who said it: I am not talking about who reported it or where you found it, I am stating WHO SAID IT. A French government official. Again, like a broken record, you can not be born a Christian. Their are people in this world who don't want to have sharia law applied to them and they are of many religions or non-religious beliefs.
NO. I don't respect the tradition of beating wives. It's wrong and evil. Thank you for the nice reply of saying that the tradition of beating women should be respected? You are welcome, but actually I just copy and pasted it, I didn't write it.
Funny, I don't remember mentioning that this was a Muslim problem. I just chimed in to add my voice to those who oppose wife beating. Me thinks thou doest protest too much.
I posted the quotes. Read them, and you shall have your answer. http://answering-islam.org/Silas/wif...#_Toc160373808 THE QURAN ON WIFE BEATING Below are 6 English versions of the Quran verse 4:34. This passage lays the foundation for wife beating. I provided all these to show their similarity. These translations are all from recognized scholars. I have corrected some archaic spelling. My comments are in [ ] type brackets. Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great! Rodwell[1] ['Refractoriness' means hard or impossible to manage, stubbornly disobedient']. Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme. Dawood[2] Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great. Pickthall[3] Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great. Arberry[4] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. Shakir[5] Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). Ali[6] ...Following are a number of various Hadith relative to wife beating. Again, I have edited several of these because of length. ABU JAHM, A WELL KNOW WIFE BEATER Sahih Muslim[9], Book 009, Number 3512: …When my period of 'Idda was over, I mentioned to him [Muhammad] that Mu'awiya b. Abu Sufyan and Jahm had sent proposal of marriage to me, whereupon Allah's said: As for Abu Jahm, he does not put down his staff from his shoulder, and as for Mu'awiya, he is a poor man having no property; marry Usama b. Zaid. I objected to him, but he again said: Marry Usama; so I married him. Allah blessed there in and I was envied (by others). Book 009, Number 3526: …So I informed him [Muhammad]. (By that time) Mu'awiya, Abu Jahm and Usama b. Zaid had given her the proposal of marriage. Allah's Messenger said: So far as Mu'awiya is concerned, he is a poor man without any property. So far as Abu Jahm is concerned, he is a great beater of women, but Usama b. Zaid... She pointed with her hand (that she did not approve of the idea of marrying) Usama. But Allah's Messenger said: Obedience to Allah and obedience to His Messenger is better for thee. She said: So I married him, and I became an object of envy. Book 009, Number 3527: …She said: Mu'awiya and Abu'l-Jahm were among those who had given me the proposal of marriage. Thereupon Allah's Apostle said: Mu'awiya is destitute and in poor condition and Abu'l-Jahm is very harsh with women (or he beats women, or like that), you should take Usama b. Zaid (as your husband). COMMENT These three Hadith illustrate that some Muslim husbands could legally beat their wives without any retaliatory consequences. Abu Jahm was known to beat his wives and to treat them harshly. Although Muhammad may not have cared for it, wife beating was certainly allowed within the Islamic community. Please post what is untrue? It truely is a shame that some women do stupid things. Women marry prisoners, and do other bad things for them. What was misquoted in the text that I cited? Nice diversions. BTW in ancient days property did belong to the husband. That changed though. In any case, please show which passages were misquoted? Why do you not condemn the beating of women? Why do you not condemn the Koran passages that encourages the beating of women? Why isn't it absurd that the debates are about what size stick it is to beat women? Just ranting that anyone who questions these "traditions" is blah blah blah, why don't you show us how it's wrong.
You might have missed this too. More on wife beating http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-wife...toothbrush.htm Wife beating in Islam today: A Pakistan Muslim Imam wrote a book called, "Tufat-ul-Nisa" ("Gift to Women") teaches that a husband should physically beat his wife just as the Koran says. In Spain, an Islamic leader named, Muhammad Kamal Mustafa, who functions as an Imam for a mosque and is viewed as a scholar, wrote a book called, "Women in Islam", which openly instructs how a man should beat his wife. The BBC reports that Muhammad Kamal Mustafa "recommends verbal correction followed by a period of sexual abstinence as the best punishment for a wife, but does not rule out a beating as long as it is kept within strict guidelines... to avoid serious damage, a husband should never hit his wife in a state of extreme or blind anger. He should never hit sensitive parts of the body such as the face, head, breasts or stomach. He should only hit the hands or feet using a rod that is thin and light so that it does not leave scars or bruises on the body. The husband's aim, the writer said, should be to cause psychological suffering and not to humiliate or physically abuse his wife (‘Spanish Women’s Fury at Islamic Advice’, BBC, 24, July 2000). Of course the woman of Spain were outraged! Six translations of Qur'an 4:34 The "word of Allah" in the Koran is clear and unmistakable! Exactly mirroring all legal systems that administer increasingly harsher penalties for continued wrongdoing, the Koran says the Husband should first verbally admonish her, next ground her to the bedroom like a child, and finally when all else fails, to beat her. We must say that such a verse is shocking. Documentation from Muslim scholars who specifically mention the toothbrush (miswak) We are not making up the "toothbrush". The idea originated with Islamic scholars who set the maximum size of the wife beating stick to be no larger than a "miswak" (a small natural toothbrush). Of course, this is only one of many interpretations of Koran 4:34. No Muslim denies that the Koran says a man can beat his wife, they merely argue among themselves as to how large the stick is. Some Islamic countries actually legislate the size of the stick! What the Hadith says about wife beating . The hadith are Islamic historical documents, though not considered the word of Allah, are used by all Muslims as a reference for their religion. These Hadith give us glimpses of early Islamic life. They show us how women were thought of, and how they were treated. Later Islamic scholars were able to draw from these stories and develop an Islamic system of life. But, what the scholars, and Muslim leaders did was accurate, based upon the Hadith. If wives were beaten with Muhammad’s approval, then that practice should continue today. Are women allowed to vote in Islam in those countries that are run by Shariah law? Well first, Shariah law is usually a dictatorship where NO ONE is allowed to vote! For example, Indonesia is a dictatorship. Egypt is a single party state backed by the military. Sudan held their first general elections in 1996 and woman are allowed to vote.
thanks cmike I appreciate your concern regarding Muslims wives, you must be a very kind hearted and loving person, who values humanity so much Now Will You please go and Ask your Govt to STOP the GENOCIDE Of MUSLIM WOMEN in Iraq, Palestine and Afghanistan I understand that your sensitive conscious, which was so disturbed by the mere though of beating of wife, would not be able to tolerate the ongoing killings and suffering in regions mentioned above
GENOCIDE Dictionary: gen·o·cide (jĕn'ə-sīd') pronunciation n. The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of an entire national, racial, religious, or ethnic group. ____ Now, new, do you honestly think the US is trying to exterminate every Muslim woman in Palestine, Iraq, and Afghanistan? If so, were are doing a pretty piss poor job of it wouldn't you say? I know you want to complain about US support and deaths caused by the US in those countries. That is a fair complaint to make. What is absurd and makes you look like an idiot is when you try to claim every death of a Muslim is an attempt at genocide. It makes you look foolish and allows people to just dismiss what may be valid criticism because you cloak it in the outrageous claims of genocide.
@cmike P.S. also allow those women in Palestine access to some water I know that water there is 'vital' for isreal and is your 'right' but with the kind nature that you have, I am sure you will generously forgo your 'right' and will happily allow the water deprived Palestinian women to have as much water as they want Thanks an obliged new
Like you or one of your buddies said before, it isn't the government, it's the religion that is doing the genocide. And I don't think he lives in any of the 3 countries listed above, so it isn't his government to ask. Tell your buddies to stop blowing people up. Tell them that it isn't working by randomly blowing up places, buses, cars, etc... It only furthers the belief that they are completely ignorant and easily brainwashed to blow themselves up and murdering others while they are at it.
@debunked why don't you, for a change , Go back to where you came from ? btw how much blowing up was happening before you decided to set your holy foot at those places (Iraq & Afghanistan) ?
I haven't set foot in Iraq or Afghanistan, but the blowing up stuff has been happening for years, maybe that is why you don't know what I am talking about, it is so normal to you that you don't know there is life without people blowing themselves up.
What does that have to do with wife beating? There is a whole thread on that topic - why don't you post there.
Nothing to do with the topic we are discussing which is the Koran and it's almost encouragement of wife beating.