Why the "prophet" Muhammad never learned the alphabet? Even fools know it ...

What does "reading" mean to you?

 

Uh - Imad, might want to check the temper at the door. Gauhar, a Muslim, sent me some information that I felt was important to post - and he felt was important to post, "especially for Muslims" - as it presented the issue of Muhammad's marriage to Aisha from a different perspective than was being discussed over the last several weeks.

In fact, what I posted was an exoneration of Muhammad on the issue of child marriage, of sorts, as it shows thought and research that refutes the Bukari version of Muhammad's marriage to aisha, which states she was a young child. I found it worthy food for thought, and in fact, I felt honor bound to report some information that was contrary to what I earlier knew.

As you can see from my post, I honestly didn't know where to put the discussion, anymore, since this thing has been discussed across many threads, as I said.

Re: "running away." I do know we were in the middle of some discussions, I went away to spend time with my family (crazy, I know - but my family actually deserves my time, when back from several days away, and this site pales by comparison of comparative need....). I'm aware we have yet to have some discussions to complete, and when I give a damn enough to continue on, I will - though I've little hope you'll actually listen to reason, as witnessed by your losing your shorts to my mitigating post, above, made at the request of a Muslim, in good faith; hence, it's kind of like pulling eye teeth to wish to return to our earlier conversation.

As to the death of Muslim children, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and the Iraq war, I am quite clear on my views - and have stated them, many times - you should slow down, I'd offer, and try another tack, because you're barking up the wrong tree.

Anything else?

Now, we could just start here...quite simple, really:

Is the Bukhari hadith infallible?

If not, it must be concluded that the hadith are fallible - since one instance of error renders something fallible, correct?

If the hadith are eitherfallible, or vague, can it not be said - as with just about any religious text I can think of - that the text is subject to the mind of Man, in interpreting that text, and implementing prescribed things thereof?

Presuming the Bukhari hadith is fallible - as discussed by Islamic scholars, in my post above - is it not strange that people would blindly follow it, or any hadith, to the point of revulsion against one's own mind?

In other words, is it not illogical to say "right or wrong, mine is not to question" if the hadith are, in fact, fallible?

Now, in my opinion, these questions are very straightforward, Imad, and do not require volumes of sophistry and obfuscation to deal with - so please feel free, as before, to answer them directly, without vagaries, sophistry, or other diversions.

In fact, I did not pull my information from "an anti-Muslim" site or slant; I received information from a Muslim, in good faith, read the information, in good faith, and as the information works a logical refutation to the Bukhari hadith:

I then proceed logically to ask, if this hadith is fallible, what to conclude, next?

If you've an issue with dealing with this, as before, Imad, I'd offer that it is you, sir, that are "running away," not myself.

 

I apologize for Imad's temperament. As you can see from this thread, Islam is continuously bashed here. I've gotten so frustrated with it that i had to stop visiting P&R altogether.

I believe Hadiths are not infallible. They were written by humans, recorded 200 years after the death of the Prophet (pbuh). No human beings are infallible. Even the Prophet (pbuh) himself said that he was a human being and made mistakes.

Only God (and his Angels) is infallible. All Prophets are mere human beings and thus cannot equal God in any way.

Under Islamic law, the conditions which are requisite for the validity of the contract of marriage are
1. Clear Understanding by both parties of what they are getting into
2. Adulthood of both parties (generally signified when both reach age 15, or at puberty)
3. Freedom or discretion of both parties entering the marriage contract.
(Source: Fatawa-i-Alamgiri, page 377)

If any of the above conditions is not fulfilled, then the marriage is void.

A person who is an infant in the eyes of the law is disqualified from entering the marriage contract. (tassarufat-i-shariyeh–tasarrufat-i- shar'iah).
Source: http://muslim-canada.org/marriage.pdf

A marriage contracted by a minor who has not arrived at the age of discretion, or who does not possess understanding or who cannot comprehend the consequences of the act, is nullified.

When these laws are so clear, how can anyone in his right mind think the Prophet (pbuh) married Ayesha when she was 6? The marriage would never be valid. Every Companion of the Prophet knew that... The Prophet (pbuh) would never violate the code of law. And he did not, as clearly shown by the article posted by Northpointaiki.

.........................
The hadith in Bukhari that claims Ayesha married the Prophet (pbuh) when she was 6 is wrong. If any brother believes otherwise, i would like to hear their arguments...

 

It's true that you said you are going to spend some time with family, that's why you couldn't discuss any more in that thread, even if in that same day you been discussing in other threads,

it is also true that you never came back to that thread, and it is also true that this was not the only discussion that you left using some excuse while saying you will get back and never got back,

for example, I still do not know whether you still think that Islam requires the rape victim to bring 4 witnesses to be considered innocent, or not? as you claimed, but that's not the point here, you are free to post whatever claim you want, and hide whatever else you want, but it would have been good if you continued there too, before you ask me later in another thread why I do not participate in that discussion you were participating in.

running away from discussions you start, and in some cases you somehow invite others to participate in, then turn your back without continuing, then later ask why somebody is not participating to imply they have nothing to say, and that your view is the correct one, is not a nice thing to do, if you been practicing this, then let me advise you: if you believe your views are so true, then there is no reason to keep discussions open, to later start them elsewhere, this will make me believe that you do not discuss to know, or exchange views about some topic, but rather than having an agenda, which can't be explained except by keeping the hate against Muslim alive.

it is been mentioned that Aisha age been a topic of discussion among Muslims scholars themselves, and it's been been proved here on these forums, several times, that the age of puberty was the accepted age of marriage in 12th and 13th century, 600 years after the prophet pbuh marriage to Aisha, and this was not only in Muslims communities, but everywhere in the world, so whether her age was 9, or more, there was nothing wrong in it, at that time, in the contrary it was a necessity to maintain the population in all communities, including USA which the age was 7 years in 19th century, but for some reason, the three I mentioned their names, have a problem with that, their problem is not with child sexual abuse in their communities, and not in child marriages in non-Muslim Asian communities, and not even in child marriages in Muslim communities, but with the prophet marriage to Aisha.

if you have anything new that you would like to discuss about the topic of Mohammad marriage to Aisha, you can go back to the so many threads about this topic, of them the ones you left open without getting back, and not pretend as you do not know where to post this, did guhar tell you post it in that thread? even if he did, you are not a newbie, and you should know better than changing the topic of a thread from a point to another, if you want to say "excuse me" then make it "excuse me" for "bringing back this old thread but I have some new material that is related" (despite some of these threads are not that old, you know there is an interest always to keep the party open for bigots) and not "excuse me" for "posting off topic" as you did here using a lame excuse of not knowing where to post it, like the lame excuses you used before to run away from discussions without continuing what you yourself started,

this is my opinion which I strongly believe in, but I do not claim it is the whole truth, I may have failed to notice something, or missed another thing, that can change this belief, if that was the case, you are free to mention it, if it was convincing, I will gladly apologize, but for now, I strongly stand behind every word I said here.

 

Having sex with a little child is evil in any country under any flag. 6 years old is a baby still and at 9 you have a very young child. 13 was a common age to be considered of age for many cultures and years ago a 13 year old was more mature than most 20+ year olds today. 13 back then worked hard, could raise a family and took responsibility. Today, just reflected in this forum alone shows the lack of maturity in our global society. Blame is always put on others and no one takes responsibility. Today we want the government to take care of our problems or put the blame on other when the religion is to blame for the thinking.

 

Beating a dead horse again, it seems. Do a search for this fella's past posts and see how many times he has been doing the very same thing: "asking" (or should I say, pretending to ask) about the Prophet's PBUH marriage to Aishah (R) and implicitly charge him with paedophilism.

Needless to mention, this has been dealt with time and time again:

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/the-young-marriage-of-aishah/

http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org/re...-muhammad-saw-aisha-ra-proper-evaluation.html

But the crux of the matter is really simple and this tiresome polemics can end here if the belligerents can get this drilled into their puny little brains: Aishah (R) was the only virgin that married the Prophet (P), she became a great jurist and a renown leader in her later years, and there were no reports of her suffering from any mental breakdown or psychological disorders associated with rape victims. If Aishah (R) did not complain about her marriage, who gave you the right to intercede on her behalf to complain about it? Are you her lawyer? Her father? Her legal guardian?

Sheesh...you people are still playing the same old games. That is why I don't bother visiting P&R these days because its wasted on the likes of you!

 

You are mistaken my friend. I have complete faith in the integrity and fair-mindedness of NPT. It is my fault that the topic of this thread was diverted. I'm sorry. But I found something that I felt was important to be shared.

I don't care how many countries allowed girls to get married at puberty. I want to know what MY beloved Prophet (pbuh) did. I generally have utter dislike for hadiths, coz the Prophet had strictly prohibited recording any Hadiths. He knew all along that it would create confusion and strife and divide the followers of One God into different groups, each swearing allegiance to its own set of "Hadiths".

There are some basic conditions which must be satisfied before a person can get into the contract of marriage, puberty being just one of them.

As such, a girl of 9 could not fulfill all those conditions.

I do not believe that hadith. It is weak and corrupt, and I reject it.

 

Appreciate your comments, Gauhar. I don't consider you're bringing me this info, or my posting it, a diversion, something like that. I know the issue has been much discussed, I certainly took a principal part in those discussions, and I am interested in the information you brought forward, so I'm sincerely grateful for the information to consider.

Imad, whether you can believe it or not, I do not have any pre-conceived designs in place - I say this all the time, and I mean it: though I'm an atheist, I believe whatever brings you comfort in this life, so long as it harms no other, is good with me. Peace, good fortune, and all the rest.

And that's it. There is no "but" addendum. All I care about is that innocents are not harmed - anywhere - and that truth be discovered, as best as possible. I'm not perfect, but I try to be open to sincere debate. The many things you say I've dodged - presuming, among them, your issues listed above - I have commented on already, many times, so not sure where you believe I've somehow fallen short. But it wouldn't be the first time, if so, and I'm glad to admit my errors, if I've committed them.

Thanks again, Gauhar, for the information, and for your comments here.

 

#Jesus and all of the Prophets before him prayed the same as Muslims pray today

 

Jesus also prayed standing, sitting, leaning, walking, etc... He spoke to His Father all the time in any position and wasn't limited by a man's rules on how to pray.

 

so do muslims. but theres a proper way to pray.

just like any other things you do in this world like eating, you can eat with your hand or even with your foot if you're retarded. the proper way is to use silverware.

Bible does not quote every moment that the lord prays when hes standing, sitting or while taking a nap. It quoted "fell on his face" / putting his face on the ground and not just him, so do the others before him

 

You was refuted here in this thread:
http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?p=12415551#post12415551

You said you will come back to discuss it, but you never came back and you never replied back.

Then you went here and opened the subject again running away from the old one which you could not reply to:
http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?p=12477457#post12477457

Yet you got refuted again.

As Imad said you get refuted and you keep running away to another thread to open the same subject and yet you get refuted by someone and yet you wait a little and then open the same subject somewhere else like it has never been discussed or change it to another topic.

You keep playing the one who is bothered by islam laws or muslims action and interested to know and seeking answers and explinations from muslims.

When they reply to you and clearly refute all accusations, you go and play the same game in other thread.

Your not fooling no one except yourself by thinking you can fool us or readers.

 

Have to say, pretty ballsy to condemn my cooling my jets for a few days - while we're here - any reason why you've not chimed in to a clear case of murderous intent? Any reason you were silent for the longest time, despite my countless requests for input, on the issue of child marriage?

I'll only briefly reply now, as it's saturday in the U.S., and I find watching my son's soccer and playing jazz with my mates a helluva lot more interesting than trying to engage in a good faith dialogue with what feels to me like a brick wall of obduracy.

I have zero interest in proving whether I've "dodged" anything - the very links you provide (dredge through this mire, for example) show that in fact, I engaged quite a bit, but do feel it's like pulling eye teeth sometimes to get a straight answer. I was off DP for awhile when my family returned, and now that I'm back - should I wish to dive back in - and ask the same questions dozens of times, until I get a straight answer - I'll take it up again. Believe whatever you need to believe - no amount of reason seems to make a difference, regardless. I honestly don't have some kind of "agenda" in place, (might want to read and consider what another Muslim had to say in this regard) but do get pretty damned tired of obfuscation, sophistry, and all the rest.

 

I am not a Muslim but I believe that one should not hurt any religious emotions.

 

You fools. All of you fools. Do you see what organized religion has done here? Oh I for sure know that you'll ignore this, but I hope to reach one mind that hasn't been obliterated with some form of newspeak.

Look at what you are doing! Look at it! Fighting over stories in a god damn book that was written more than a thousand years ago. Do you not see the grand scheme?

The plan?

The reason?

If you divide a people, you conquer them. You are owned by your institutions. You speak what they want you to say! I don't care if you are a Muslim, a Christian, or anything else that prays to a being you do not see, hear, touch, feel, or know as if they were in your house in front of you! You have a better chance of meeting Elvis.

You're all insane, to be honest, or otherwise just indoctrinated from birth or through peer pressure. You say what they want you to say, you fight what you want them to fight, you think what they want you to think, and you do what they want you to do.

Religion has invaded your lives, your thoughts, your dreams, every part of your psyche has been dominated by the fear of retribution that will not come. Your fear controls you.

Your fear of what others might think,
your fear of what they might say,
what they might do,
and what it might be like to live life as you see fit.

You are used to rules, regulations, protocols, and philosophies that were drilled into your brains starting as soon as you uttered your first babble as a baby.

When have you thought for yourself without the presence of a "god" or a religious influence? When have you stepped outside of your tiny little boxes, taken a breath of fresh air, and just thought for yourself about yourself, without the ever infiltrating brainwashing and programming from your youth?

Do you help people because you want to, or do you help them because its been programmed to do so?

Do you argue with people because you want to, or do you cling to some fantasy from childhood of making an imaginary sky god smile while you argue/harm/kill anyone who dares to question Him (when those messages came from a religious authority - not His mouth... the Lord never speaks to normal men unless it was HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO).

Gahhh, there are nearly seven billion people, and more than three quarters follow blindly and speak the party line. It is the same as politics.

One party says jump, its followers jump. The other party says jump twice, to out do the first one. Before you know it everyone is jumping - and the rulers are passing laws that take your money and livelihood away.

They use your fear of death to entrap you, saying all these pretty things about what will happen if you "behave" and do what they want you to do - and then increase your fear of all the bad things that will happen if you dare question, oppose, or speak against them!

It is a scam, through and through. Even Charles Manson knew the fundamentals enough to brainwash grown women and men - Religions like Islam and Christianity and even Judaism have had hundreds of years to perfect it.

It becomes quite simple. Parents teach their children from birth. Children, being naturally accepting of what parents say as being correct, believe it until the day they die unless they find out that... their parents were wrong.

For the love of humanity itself, I hoped I helped at least one of you.

I know I haven't changed minds... and that makes me sad for you. In fact, I pity you, regardless of if you want it or not, and I pity the future.

 

Your words have some truth in them. I'm going to save this post in my Evernote account. I'll think over it... but I don't agree with everything you said...

 

Just a couple of days ago a Muslim Afghani guy was arested for plotting terrorist actions in US.

I AM SORRY, BUT IT HAPPENS THAT "MUSLIMS" ARE THOSE WHO TARGET AMERICANS, CIVILIANS IN AFGHANISTAN, PAKISTAN, IRAQ, RUSSIA, SPAIN, ENGLAND ETC....... (for those who get easy offended of course most muslims are good people ...)

I haven't heard of any Budhists or Hindus or people from any other religion group to target civilians as means of fulfilling religious duty.


ALL THOSE TERRORISTs FEEL IT IS THEIR RELIGIOUS ISLAMIC DUTY TO KILL OTHERS WHO OFTEN HAPPEN TO BE CIVILIANS.


If that hurts somebody's feelings, may be he is supporting the jihadists. Every normal human being wants to live in peace. How often do you hear imams condemning islamic violence?

 

which speaks of your ignorance

I also haven't heard of Eiffel tower, does it mean that the tower has ceased to exist ?

 

It does not matter to me if you agree with all of it, only that it makes someone out there take a step back and really look and how the control is so complete on so many (6 billion out of 6.5 billion - even that is a liberal estimation as I know of no 500,000,000 wandering around free of control) people.

 

That is bad, no doubt about it. They should be condemned. Islam never said the killings of innocents is acceptable.

Similarly to the killings and the stealing of lands in Palestine. Most Muslim never think that Israel has the rights. And that should be condemned too because whether we like it or not, it's the main factor why some Muslims extremist took such action. Yet still world never want to learn..

I guess your statement was made base on your lack of knowledge...