Yet another thread about: Is Islam a violent religion?

The word "Islam" originates from the "s-l-m" semitic root.

Muslim are very lucky: the root also means "peace" (salam) and muslim just loveeeeeee it to say that it is the original meaning of the name, and Islam is the "religion of peace".
However, the real, original meaning of "Islam" comes from another meaning of same root, which is "submission". Namely, in the basis on the religions stand the requirement that one must submit and subdue himself to god. If you ever considered joining Islam, you probably would have the preacher tell you to "submit" yourself before god. And this is why.

As stated in the second sentence of the Wikipedia article, one who speaks Arabic would know that the word "Muslim" مسلم , is in the participle tense. In this tense, it is related only to the "submission" meaning of the root, and not the "peace" version. Namely, مسلم (Muslim) is "one who submits" and not "one who peace..." (I can't even build a meaningful translation with the other meaning of the root in this tense).
Moreover, think logically: Mohammed was a great military commander. He conducted dozens of occupation campaigns against many peoples, even when his empire was already so strong that nobody could possible pose a threat on it. And I ask, in view of the his imperialist campaigns, also described in quran, can this man be considered as the founder of a "religion of peace"? that would be kind of absurd, no?

Or maybe the people who wrote the quran just meant both meanings, and made a nice word play. Hebrew is very close to Arabic (but a little simpler) - we also have such kind of root games.
However, the name is just a "side thing"! its just a name. More important is what happens in practice with the Muslims in this very day, no?

Looking at the events of the recent years, can "Islam" be called as the religion of peace? the answer is a big "NO!!!".

Why?

(1) ------
In recent years, every day we hear about a Muslim terror attack somewhere in the world. It is such a common supplement to every hourly news edition that we forget about it. Unless 100 or more people are killed, we forget about it. In July 2009 alone a worldwide death toll of 207 people among members of 5 religions in 25 countries was recorded. All of those incidents were not due to personal, financial or random reasons, but only due to religion-motivated ones, warfare is of course excluded as well.
The death toll of the religion on peace in the past two months including yesterday's "peaceful actions" in Pakistan and Ingushetia. some of the events in the table occured in non-muslim countries: france, canada, uk, thailand, search and find them!

(2) ------
Need I remind you of the treasures of culture and art that humanity lost after the members of the religion of peace shattered down two monumental statues of Buddah, built in the 6th century in 2001? Could there possibly be any other occasion/group that will destroy UNESCO world-heritage sites for ANY reason? Even in WWII, the allies and the Nazi did everything possible to assure that historical monuments stand unharmed. So here we have one of the most peaceful events of the members of the "religion of peace". Just look and admire.

(3) ------
Have you heard of the Shabak people? a very small ethnic group in the north of Iraq, who originated from Islam but separated later?

You might think that 1,000 dead and 4,000 displaced people are not that bad? well you'd have to reconsider this once you remember that there are no more than 17,400 members of the Shabak religion worldwide today....

(4) ------
A few days ago there was a massacre in Gaza. Al-qaida supporters have charged Hamas for being "a secular organization hiding behind Islam", and declared gaza to be an Islamic emirate under the command of bin-laden. Hamas's response was the response usually one expects from those who practice "the religion of peace", 30 of them were massacred + 6 unarmed civilians killed at random. The fightings took place in a mosque. see here. The worst thing about it, is that the Israel "opposers" (actually: haters) on DP had absolutely nothing to say about the unnecessary excessive loss of life from their own nation/belief/people! But if Israel unintentionally kills a child, you will shortly find tons of dead-body pictures and antisemitic lies posted. This pattern is a rule without exception (i.e. same is valid for the massacre of 210 members of the PLO (fatah) by Hamas in the power-overtake two years ago in Gaza. I actually did feel remorse for them while the arabs (and palestinians?) on DP refused to say a single word on this matter, and I don't know if its funny or sad.)
From this I argue that the members of the "religion of peace", even the more intellectual ones on DP who know how a keyboard look like, hate the others much more than they love themselves, and yet call themselves "religion of peace". It is very common to have chats with muslims who never met an Israeli and yet as a result of their hatred- and islamic-supremacy education system would say that there is nothing they hate more than Israel. I dont see how people who hate others more than they love themselves, can be regarded as a "religion of peace". Just read all of the posts of imad, new, polite teen, gauaeriu, etc': all there is are words of glory to islam and (in some cases) words of hate to the west/Israel. Self criticism? never. Always will answer: "you" and never talk about "me".

++

Very peaceful.

(5) ------
I will conclude with a video on youtube which I posted a few times before. This is a children's show in the OFFICIAL NATIONAL TV of Saudi arabia, one of the more important countries who practice "the religion of peace". To my humble opinion, this video is the most horrible video on the web, and nothing can account better for the reasons to what I have written above.

(6) ------
A not too violent event but yet an event that teaches a lot about the members of the "religion of peace" is the danish caricature affair in 2006. Newspapers based in Muslim countries regularly publish caricatures with anti-newish and anti-Christian materials. When a caricature would be published in Egypt portraying Jesus as a drunk man, nobody will even pay attention. Arab newspapers publish regularly caricatures portraying jews as blood-thirsty people who plan to conquer the world. but who cares?
The danish caricatures caused very violent demonstrations worldwide, some people were shot by their own police. Even Muslims who live in europe stood in the streets with signs saying: "slay those to insult islam". The "people of peace" are willing to die if you "insult" the prophet, and I doubt it if they would sacrifice their lives if you insulted their mother. This is insane. Also check out this very nice answer by my Israeli newspaper to the affair, who organized a caricature competition for nasty anti-semitic caricatures where only jewish artists are allowed to participate (part II). I must admit, apart from being too cool like Israel is, it made me really proud to stand in the opposite side to everything the Muslim demonstrators worldwide stood for.

(7) ------
The abuse and beatings of women, the man's property? polygamy? marriage with 10 year olds? all have been already discussed.

Now its up to you to decide if you think that Islam is the "religion of peace", or not.
My answer to the question:
Islam is just a religion. As with all religions, it is idiotic, primitive, and senseless. But unlike all religions, it is being practiced in the most fundamental manner (understand what "fundamental" mean?, and no, it is not a synonym of extreme), whereas with other religions there is a much thicker layer of "interpretation", that mediates the centuries that have passed between the era where people wrote this text and today which damp the text turns it into the (sometime nice) practical and PEACEFUL doctrine that they have turned in the recent century. In the days of the crusades, witch burnings, etc', Christianity was in the early "mental" stage that Islam is experiencing today. I hope that Islam will get over it, just as Christianity did.
In short, Islam is what Muslims make it look like through their interpretation and actions derived from it. Islam could have been the religion of peace, just as all other religions but first its up for the Muslims to decide to denounce the above behavior and chose a new, peaceful one.

 

(1) ------

A) If you wanna compare death rate then you will find, major killing is done by christians in the name of christianity in their "Holy war". Similarly, what about death rate from racism is also much greater, look at civil wars of america. even US who attack after 9/11, they have killing 30000+ of afghans and iranis just to find one guy Osama bin Laden. while combining all terrorists attack the total number of people killed are not even touching 10,000 (including 3000+ of deaths on world trade center which is known to be another inside job, you might call it conspiracy theory).

Ps: this doesn't mean i am backing suicide bombing, infact i think suicide bombing on civilians only started after USA landed in this region. And that's why i think they are responsible for this.. And the suicide bomber will never go to the Jannah, since suicide is not allowed in Islam.

(2) ------

A) It all depends upon how much people care about those things.. Afghanistan is to be known as 99% Muslim country, and there are not any Budha were living or visiting that place. Neither Afghan government of that time was interested in that to put ticket on that and let people come and visit it. So they destroyed it. But if you are saying Islam is responsible for that then you are totally wrong. When sikhs capture Punjab they did same thing to many places like badshahi grand mosque, dehli mosque.. similarly when britisher invade South asia, they did same to many places.. But again i am not justifying.. but saying every religion has same number of people.. doing so..


(3) ------

I post same thing you posted here, just highlighting something

It explains alot, because of whom it all started...

Any how no time to answer everything... Just say this, "All you have posted don't prove anything, nothing to do with ISLAM".. to me it seems like some who want to destroy Islam's image created some people, after invading Afghanistan and Iraq (like we know here in my country who is supporting these TTP, and BLA). Also, you are completely wrong.. No ghazwa (fight) by prophet has done in offensive way. Last... there is no word in Arabic which pronounce as "s-l-m".. better read some real books then Wikipedia. Submit in arabic is "Taslem", not "s-l-m". But yes, Islam is "Submission to Allah", but Islam is derived from Salam, which means "Peace"

Edit:

I was just reading by, found you are pretty weak in English.. even don't know how to explain the meaning of "Fundamental". I give you a good way to do so, just paste it in Word, and right click, and find synonym ..

 

I'm not an Islam, but I believe its not a violent type of religion We have our own beliefs, the fact that we respect each other is important

 

Hi Fracker

you totally missed my point. In my essay to argue that Islam can be considered as violent religion, point 1 refers to "in house" violence. If you look at the table, the victims are (in most cases) Muslims, killed by other Muslims for religious reasons (sometimes even inside the family). If you seek a parallel (or: want to compare the dead rate, as you put it), you should provide a similar table of Christians killed by other Christians in the name of religion. Unfortunately, if you will try to compose such a table, you will find that your bank of events is empty after 1 or 2 lines (say, Houston Texas 1 dead 0 wounded - a doctor who makes abortions killed by a christian fundamentalist), whereas the parallel table in the Muslim case gets a new line every day.
"suicide is not allowed in Islam" - I'm afraid 1 billion Muslims will not agree with you, and I'm sure that 7 million Palestinians will not agree with you: many streets in Gaza are named after suicide bombers.
I therefore have to regard your answer as irrelevant to my allegations. My point was - Murder of Muslims by Muslims in the name of Islam. Warfare and inter-religious events are left out.

"deaths on world trade center which is known to be another inside job" .
Teach us more about that: who are the people who stand behind 9/11, provide all the references and proof please. I can't believe that I always thought al-qaida is behind 9/11. How ignorant am I. The video where bin-laden says : "we didn't expect such a success" must be a fake as well. It most be the zionists.

I'm happy that you are not justifying the destruction of the Buddhas, and see it as a savage action as I do. I'm also afraid that your allegation that the British destroyed places of worship is an ugly lie, unless you can provide a trustworthy reference and couple of examples.

"but saying every religion has same number of people.. doing so.." - and I say "NO". In Islam, there are more people who "do so", whereas the people who do not "do so" (the vast majority), stay silent and do nothing prevent them.

Please explain exactly what you meant by: "It all depends upon how much people care about those things". I see it not only as a justification for the destruction of the Buddhas, but also as a justification for the genocide of the Shabak people. They are so few and have no idea, nobody would care, right?

That's true, that the violence started with the invasion of Iraq. The reason there was no violence before, is just like the reason there is no religious violence in the west: the man in power Saddam Hussein, although a great murderer of Muslim in his own right, did not approve it. Once he is gone, the Muslim people can exercise the violence which is inherit with their interpretation of their religion more freely, and this is exactly what they do.

"No ghazwa (fight) by prophet has done in offensive way." are you arguing that the conquest of all of the middle east was not done in an "offensive way"? are you even taking yourself seriously?

Notice how your answers (1) , (2), and (3) related with the second part of point (4) I raised:

Is the west also responsible when a man kills his sister? Is the west responsible to the genocide (sometimes by beheading) of the tiny, harmless Shabak people by the sunnites? I think you should reconsider if this is what you really think, and why is that.

Embarrassing enough for you if I have to teach you that "Taslem" originates from the "s-l-m" root as well.
My claim that "Islam" originated from "submission" is based on two reasons: a linguistic one (the participle name of the believer, "Muslim", that has no meaning using the "peace" version), and a historical one (the conquests of Mohammed). Your claim ("but Islam is derived from Salam, which means Peace"), is based on: "I just really want it to be like this, so it must be like this. This is what I have been taught in my childhood: it must be true". It is similar to your allegation that the British destroyed places of worship.

I urge you to read the wikipedia article about what "Fundamentalism" means. By the way, where are you from?

Finally we do agree on one point. My English is indeed pretty weak. However, my clear thinking, the ability to unbiasly derive the correct conclusions from ALL of the facts at hand and not just those I choose not to forget, and at the same being able to use self-criticism required for making sure i'm not being prejudicial, is not.

 

articles like these has been written throughout history about blacks, women,american indians and most commonly jewish people. we also know of some that has performed medical a psychological experiments trying to prove their point.
nowadays it is understood that it is more a reflection of the authors frame of mind than the subject.

 

Isn't being politically-correct just sweet?

So you say that "Islam is violent. but not more than everybody else?". I beg to differ.
My post was not written "throughout history", but yesterday. If you think you can compose a parallel one but with the blacks or women or american indians or Jews or Christians or Hindus or Buddhists or bahai or shabak or gypsies on the defendant chair, I encourage you to take up the challenge.

Your indictment to prove your politically correct point should include:
1) daily occasions of murder of jews/christians ect' by other jews/christians ect', sometimes members of the close family, due to religious grounds/motivation/interpretations.
2) demolition of place of worship of other religions (which also happens to be a one-of-kind monument and a treasure to humanity as a whole) in the 21th century.
3) unrestrained violent demonstrations due to a caricature.
4) abusing the lack of knowledge of the language of origin to invent a new meaning for the name of their religion in its original language.
5) a 4 year old girl on national TV expressing hate to any other ethnic group/religion and being praised by the host.
6) you can leave abuse of women out....

All the best of luck to you!

(Try to write it against the jews/christians/buddhists/hindus/bahai whatever. blacks/women/indians etc' are not religions but races/genders whereas muslims and jews are not, and was not a smart thing of you to mention).

Many European countries (esp. France, UK, Sweden, Netherlands) are already sorry for this "politically correct" policy regarding Muslim immigration that they adopted.

p.s.
The members of the "religion of peace" sent you their kind of warm blessing today in Iraq killing 95 people, and we in Israel sent you our kind of blessing.

p.p.s. an amusing philosophical thought I had:
Muslims believe in Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. then, they believe that god made Mohammed the last prophet.
At the same time Muslims (and all other religions) believe that the bible was written by god. these are the words of god.
So from this, one concludes that god has a terrible identity conflict regarding the language:
1. one text he brings upon humanity in Hebrew.
2. another text he brings upon humanity in Latin.
3. and the final text he brings upon humanity in Arabic.

I might have been a believer if god had a psychiatric problem only about the language, the problem that according to the belief of believers of all religions, god has a lot of other, more complicated psychiatric problems.....

 

You have way to much time on your hands.

 

yet another lame attempt to discredit Islam

I feel sorry for you

 

If you read my last paragraph,

you should understand that I am not attempting to "discredit Islam". I do not argue against Islam, I argue against the followers of Islam and accuse them for being more violent in 2009 towards others and themselves than the followers of all other big and small religions of the world (combined!). I haven't read any reply that relates directly to my arguments and raises good counterarguments that can serve to weaken them, such as what have I missed something in the equation? maybe I missed something important the context of the events or their backgrounds?
It happened to me already several times that I missed something in the equation . Please let me know if you notice it happening again. But from what I see until this post, so far, so good.

 

i do not judge based on action of a few. i condemn the few.
i will get more into detail later when i have more time
but let me ask you this.
why is i bad to be anti-Semite?
does the same reason apply to other people

 

I will wait until you will get more into detail as I did in the challenge I gave you, and then we see what I have to say in my defence

 

Anti-semitic? Who is anti-semitic? I, for one, have nothing against Arabs at all..

For those who have only "half-a-brain", google "semitic"

 

lol like islam, the religion of violence, oppression and child abuse, needs our help when it comes to being discredited. it;s follows do a far more profound job than we ever could.

I mean, just the other one of your "brothers" was saying that a 9 year old child should be free to have sex with a 50 year old man if she wants to and that its "her right". That level of unashamed disregard for the welfare of children leaves any efforts i make standing in the cold when it comes to discrediting a dogmatic ideology.

 

we say i'm not muslim,and absolutly right,islam is not a violant religion,

 

Right and we say "absolutely right,islam is not a violent religion"
Sorry, I can't help myself sometimes. I need help

 

So you are saying this don't happen or didn't happen in other religions? Boring.. i think you never read the history, about civil was, what happened in europe in 11 century etc. Also, house violence is more common in US then Pakistan (check the statistics). In fact, i see in my country it is more less violence since, everything is well known, who is the BOSS in house (like some years back my grand mother was the boss of the house, so both brothers (my father & my uncle) have to accept what ever she say, they could only give suggestions) but in western countries.. everyone has equal rights, parents kick their childern out of the house.. Divorce everyday, BF cheating to GF, or otherway ..

Again if you are educated too much but don't know about something you are arguing about called illiteracy. There is a Huge difference between Suicide bombing and fidai attack. In suicide bombing, you going to die while achieving your target, and in fidai attack you have always escape route planned after achieving the target (but yes most of the times you die while attack, also there is huge of code of conduct before planning about this type of attack).

So are you same guy who thinks a civilian plan crash into tower and a tower (WTC 7) crashed which is far away, and the closed building is standing? Lolzz.. and you also believe that a thin guy(just in some days), who is living in the cave, and most of his time passes when he is fasting.. become big fat guy.. and his beard become more crowded.. lolzz.. i don't need to explain.. or reasoning.. (i have done this many times in many forums, so i am bored now with these all old arguments). Just enjoy your ignorance or read the interview by Hamid Mir of Osma bin Laden after 9/11!!

It is very useless debate.. no time to carry on. you enjoy the TRUTH.. ISLAM is full of violence, it doesn't means peace but submission.. Prophet Muhammad (SAWW) didn't work for the peace BUT he is always on war.. This will not change my truth that, Islam means Peace, & prophet Muhammad (SAWW) always went for the peace when there was no option.. he also defended well. A Momin is the Marcy to all of his relatives, neighbors.. & some misguided or sinner muslims are misery to his surroundings..

 

i am going to take a few minutes to talk about your essay.
in your introduction you go on about what the world islam means. to me it does not matter. so what if it means submission to god? hoptydo.i am not trying to say islam means peace and i do not give a shit what it means. i also do not think islam is the cause of any of these acts, these things are going on because of political and social circumstances that are not necessary related to each other in the way you arre presenting.
1-bombing and terrorist attacks.
these actions are political. they are against different political groups or a particular govt. kashnir is not rlated to israel/palestanian situation and iraq is not connected to afganestan and south east asian situation to the stuff that is has happened with the russians. these situations are clear political situation. aims are political and actions are political. islam is used as a cover to gain support.
2- cultural and religious artifact has been destroyed at all times. tombs were raided. graves has been built on and so on. now the fact is that afganistan has been bombed for 25 years out of the last 40 by the two superpowers. so it is not surprising that people act the way they do.
if you object[rightly so ]about rockets that palestanians drop on sedrot just imagine what has been happening to the afghans. they have been bmbed to the stone ages so they act like that. i do not find that surprising.
3-ethnic conflict
4-another political conflict. i explained this already.
5-saudi arabia is a dictatorship. the laws of saudi arabia and most arab countries are designed to keep the dictatorship in power.
6-if someone say something anti semetic all the jewish people object. just look at how everyone is trying to silence the paper that accused idf soldiers for organ theft in the past few days .when the picture of Mary with dong was put on display in new york, mayor guliani tried to take the museum funding away. freedom of speech means nothing in these situations to the people that felt disrespected.
7-now this is the most ridicules thing that some people want to present. show me that there are more domestic violence in muslem countries. or more women being raped.
conclusion
although i is true that there re many violent act comitted by many muslems all over the world. these are not connected. these are poliical acts against different political targets. trying to connect these events is foolish.
it is playing to the hand of people like OBL
i do not believe in us versus them mentality. i believe in them against the rest of us. the more the rest of us are the better the better it is. and i want to isolate the people that are using violence to achieve their goals. i do not want to allow them to define it as a religious goal to get more support.
for example i would ask if al qada follows islam then why do they have to have so many fatws. it is obvious that every time they issue a fatwa they are trying to change islam. even what their own followers believe what is acceptable to islam.

 

Instead of parallel indictment you decided to write a defense strategy, fine. Let me show you how you failed.

Agree. In my essay I wrote that its just a name, and the name has small importance. Yet I do insist that for the people who wrote the quran in the 7th century, "Islam" meant submission, not "peace".

Not True! Period!
Some of the events in the table also have a political aspect beside the religious one. The most don't. I filtered the table for you a little bit, maybe it will help you see better:

2009.08.19 Iraq Kirkuk Islamic militants kidnap and murder a Christian doctor.
2009.08.19 Thailand Yala A villager is shot five times by Islamists while walking to a market.
2009.08.12 Jordan Madaba A pregnant woman is shot four times in the head by her brother for marrying by choice.
2009.07.27 Nigeria Maiduguri A Christian pastor and father of seven is hacked to death by radical Muslims, who then burn down his church.
2009.07.20 Somalia Mahadday Weyne A father of two is shot to death by Muslims for leaving Islam and becoming a Christian.
2009.07.18 Pakistan Swat The Taliban behead a government employee in his home.
2009.07.16 Jordan Amman A young man stabs his married sister and smashes her head with a rock over 'immoral behavior.'
2009.07.16 Thailand Narathiwat Islamists gun down a food vendor for selling pork.
2009.07.09 Jordan Amman A 27-year-old woman is stabbed to death by her younger brother for bringing dishonor to the family by getting pregnant.
2009.07.09 Jordan Amman A second woman is stabbed to death by her brother, who finishes the job with a rock. Her crime was talking to a man.
2009.07.07 Philippines Jolo Abu Sayyaf militants detonate a bomb outside a second Christian church, killing two innocents.
2009.07.02 UK London A 24-year-old man is blinded, suffers the loss of his tongue and 90% burns during an 'honor' attack in which he was forced to drink acid and had it thrown on him by angry Muslims.

This is just the last month. This is not political.

I remind you that I was not talking about "all times", I was talking about the 21th century.
But OK, lets for the moment assume that the demolition of the Buddhas by the taliban and the church demolitions in Gaza are "special cases". And true ---> no more events of demolition of places of worship I can think of. there is a big BUT.
Think of this as a philosophical game: is the demolition of a church not just as bad as the banning of Christians (or any other religion) to build new churches and practice their religion freely? is there a philosophical difference between the two? building of churches is (with few negligible exception) illegal in Saudi arabia. In the "ghettos" (something isolated by a wall) of the foreigners is Saudia there are churches, and you are allowed to wear a cross on your neck, but you will be arrested if you do not remove it when you visit downtown. This is how the members of the "religion of peace" appreciate you as a human being, if you are not a member of the clan.
The "religion of peace" republic of Iran punishes Iranis who decide to marry a non-muslim with the death penalty. Just politics and similar to all other religions, right?

Was the murder of the jews by the Germans also an ethnic conflict? You must think it was, if you think that the genocide of the Shabak by the sunni is an "ethnic conflict". If not, please clarify the differences between the cases:
You really think that 17,000 persons can "demand" something from dozens of millions so that a "conflict" will come to exist? They wake up every morning and pray: "please god, let me live through today and I will be grateful.", as the jews of WWII did. Think of what you just said! My god! There was a reason why I picked the Shabak people and not any other of the dozens of inner-Muslim conflicts. And this is the reason: the hate that will soon leads to their extermination is only due to religious differences! The same hate the you will earn if you dare speak a word not in favor or Mohammed or even suggest to build a new church in Saudi arabia.

True. This is a political conflict. And the first one. But this point was raised by me to make the following argument: "when muslims murder other muslims even for political reasons, the DP members who are very noisy when Israel unintentionally scratch a child, are silent like fish".

True, but not even remotely related with point 5 in my original post. Or you agree with me? saying "Saudi laws are meant to keep the dictatorship in power and not only allow but also promote the hatred to everything non-muslim, especially the jews (as the video show) and the west (as 9/11 showed us)" then good.

I don't recall worldwide demonstration with a number of dead in both cases. I can't find a picture I saw once on the web showing UK Muslims stand in the middle of London and hold numerous signs saying: "Slay those who insult islam", "Kill ...." , "slaughter ...." etc'. You got to admit that the islamic protest has a different...."color shade", not evident in other religions.

I can not. They do not collect statistics: and the statistics are worth nothing - the women are not reporting such events to the authorities. Just like in middle ages Ireland - a woman who got raped is filth ---> in the islamic world of the 21th century - its the same.
In Israel this is very interesting with the arab minority (22%). From time to time we hear about "honor killings". But although that in Israel the police WILL act to bring the murderer to justice, unlike i.e. Saudi arabia, the women never speak against the murderers (so you expect them to speak against rapers?). However for the first time in the history of the state, this has changed for once.

.

Pizzaman: the middle east is not full with Americans who just happen to speak another language. There is a huge cultural gap that in your terrific "politically correct" clean american education you can not grasp. Believe me, I would be more than glad to apologize and see that I was prejudicial and wrong, but unfortunately I'm not. I think that honesty comes before "politically correct". I hope I finally managed to convince you that the violence described in my original post IS something different, a masterpiece which is characteristic and unique to the "religion of peace". If you are not seeing this because you really don't want to see it, there is nothing I could do to help. But I hope that you find sense in my counterarguments above.

 

i am glad that you see what you are doing as an indictment . i am examining your indictment . you must show a prety solid evidence of your indictment against what over a billion people find dear.

i can see it being submission to god and still see no problem

some of these probably have other reasons. jealousy. gang related. of course there are some that they might have been because of a perceived religious agenda. nevertheless you must show a pattern. solid evidence.
what you are saying is just like some would try to say look at the jewish rabbi in jersey. this proves are jewish people are involved in money laundering.

i agree that most if not all govt of ME are bad. horrible.
although i am completely against bush and the republican partty, i believe arabs made the biggest mistake by not supporting him and volunteering their dictator to be next after sadam.

i really do not know much about these iraqis, but i give you my take about holocaust.
i think it was more about the superiority of the arian race, than the jewish religion i think it happened because germans were feeling week and out of control of their lives. so when hitler introduced his hate they loved the feeling that it gave them. they felt good about themselves and that is why they let him do it.
i think the world must learn from holocust. we should not only learn about what happened but most important is to realize why an how as hitler able to control the germans to let him do what he did.

most muslems on dp say that islam is not about what extremist say. they say what they believe is not what these people believe in. and they get attacked for saying that. it seems that some of people on dp actually attack a muslem member for saying the exact thing that we want them to say.

i have to saythat there is two thing that is going on similtaniopusly.
you can be sure regardless of how muslems feel about jewish people they feel that palestanians are being harmed by israel. and they want an end to the occupation;
there is also an opportunistic elements by the ME govt to paint israel and US as the cause of the arab problems, and absolving themselves of all responsibility.

i do not remember anyone getting killed. but being obnoxious is not against the law. i think they were more vocal and get agitated easier than most European and Americans, but so do Israelis, Russians and host of other people.

if you have no evidence then you have no case. they call it jealousy in US. remember OJ

i hope you realize that your country is in hostility and war with these people. it is not unusual for you to hate each other.
what i am saying is that you have to overcome this hate and try to find common ground and hopefully make peace.
i am saying that the best way to fight the violence is to isolate the violent and your way achieves nothing to end this problem of hate and violence.

 

It seems that I will not be able to convince you. You are wrong again. Most irritating to read was:

I started by blaming the genocide of the Shabaks on the inherit religious hatred towards other religions in Islam. Then, you called it just a "ethnic conflict". I used the holocaust in the 1st part of the answer, and a stronger argument in the 2nd part of the answer: "You really think that 17,000 persons can "demand" something from dozens of millions so that a "conflict" will come to exist?" , just to point out that under no circumstances the genocide of the Shabaks is an "ethnic conflict". Now, at this stage, you started to talk about the holocaust, in total irrelevance with our debate. The holocaust was used just as an example (a giant butchering an ant) to explain you that the Shabak genocide is not "ethnic conflict", just as the holocaust wasn't. It is a genocide, motivated by religion. You must see it like this, because there is no other way to see it. The Shabak parted from Islam - their religious belief are an insult to Islam, according islam - "the disbelievers are the enemies of allah. 2:65". Also the murder of a sister by her brother - I have no other way to see it but a murder that was spared if Islam (or - the interpretation of Islam) was a bit different.
Too bad that you have glued the "politically-correct" glasses engineered by the american education system to your nose so tight and don't even consider to remove them for a second, maybe new insights will become apparent.


And now to this, VERY ANNOYING COMMENT of yours:

To let you know, 22% of the citizens of Israel are Palestinians, just like those we hear about them so often on this forum. But unlike their brothers and sisters, they hold a full israeli citizenship and do not engage in any kind of violence (except for the family violence inherit in their culture, not all though........). I speak fluent Arabic, both the palestinian dialect and the "high arabic", used through the whole arab world. I have naturally many arab friends - one of the is a business partner with my dad. I admire the Arab culture, especially the cousin, and sometimes listen to Arab music. I just don't like the VIOLENCE which ISLAM IS CAUSING WORLDWIDE.
You have no idea how foolish you sound sitting there in a ranch in Texas and telling me that I hate Arabs and I should take a lesson from you.

just read imad declaring that homosexuality is a problem that should be fixed, new posting anti-semitic lies (george washing) and then fights EVERYBODY and insisting that they are truth, and now imad and new posted that Israel trades palestinian organ along with american orthodox jews.... then they argue that the Lockerbie bombers is an innocent good family man, imad and new as well as ThraXed and gauaerkjn denied the holocaust couple of times.... they have no limit which they say to themself: "stop. this far I will not go". Just look at the herd of the Muslims on DP. Just see the hate that they manage to get out of their keyboard: there is absolutely NOTHING evil said about jews that they will denounce, and absolutely NOTHING good that they will support.

Looks doom? now we get to the worst part: you have to understand that imad and new belong to the elite 1% of the Arabs in the middle east! (who know how a keyboard look like and can speak a couple of English words!) imagine what middle ages opinions you would get from the rest 99% of their country's citizens if you could chat with them in Arabic? can you even imagine that? Imagine that if the DP herd of Muslims who talk and think the same with no difference from one another is the top elite 1% of the rest, what can you expect from the rest?

if you have problems to imagine, refer to the posts mocking islamic clerics on Saudi TV discussing how to beat your wife, arguing that the earth is flat, etc' in other threads and refresh your memory. If you don't see how these kind of people can be the reason for the excessive religious violence caused by their primitive view of the universe and their place in it, I can not help you further.