Womens Rights -- Are they for all women or just some women?

Religion is a side issue, and not directly relevant to the discussion. (Proof: Communist China -- no religion -- incredible human repression.)

The question was whether is was morally acceptable to use violence to protect the defenseless.

You answered a firm no.

From your follow-up answer, it appears that your moral system may not be logically consistent.

So, where do you really stand? Is it morally acceptable to use violence against bad people to protect weak people?


Edit: P.S. I am an Athiest, the same "religion" as those mass murderers in mainland China.

 

Most of us would answer the same way, Will. It doesn't mean that most of us agree with murder. It means that most of us are human.

 

Let's follow the logic here.

It's OK to use violence to protect a Canadian girl from rape, but it's not OK to use violence to protect a Libyan, Pakistani, Iranian, Iraqi, or Saudi girl from rape. Is that what you are arguing here?

If not, what are you arguing here? Please explain your apparent logical inconsistency.

 

Excuse me? If you as an individual came to my house and did any harm to me or mine, I would rip your head off. If you were part of a culture which devalued women, the disabled, ethnic minorities or gay, leprous, baboons I would do my damn best to make you see the light of equality.

If you were a undervalued women, an ethnic minority, joe blow or a leprous baboon that individually came to my house and raped my daughter I would spread your entrails on my front path for the crows. Individuals are responsable for their own actions. What part of that do you not understand?

 

You didn't question him about a Canadian girl. You specifically asked him about his daughter, Will. If you're talking about family, you have to expect a stronger response. Would you fight as desperately for my protection as you would for that of your wife? Of course not.

 

I would fight for any innocent person who was assaulted in my presence. That's the only moral thing to do -- in my book. Your morals may, and apparently do, vary.

I do not see my wife as being morally more valuable than any other innocent person. She's wonderful and I love her very much, but that is not relevant here.

Do you remember that bit about all humans being created equal? That means that a Pakistani woman is equal to your wife. They should have the same protection under the law, and they should have the same protection from you -- a responsible citizen.

Oh wait, you're Canadian. Are all people equal in Canada too?

 

Interesting thread. Although I consider myself spiritual, I certainly don't subscribe to any one "organized" religion. That said, the "Golden Rule" seems like a pretty good rule-of-thumb to me...

 

e10, that's a dodge, but I can see that its a dodge which you have bought into, not one that you are perpetrating.

You are claiming that its OK you you to use violence against one person who is assaulting an innocent person.

So, what if it is a group of people assaulting your daughter? Is it still OK for you to use violence?

What if their religion demands that they assault your daughter? Is it still OK? You know, this country is only two hundred years old and their religion is much older than that. Who are you to interfere with their religious beliefs?

Would you educate them while they were gang raping your daughter? Would you offer them tea and cookies and turn on NPR for them?

If you answer no, then you must ask yourself this follow-up question:

If there is a large group of organized bad people, which effectively prevents you - as an individual - from taking successful proactive action to protect the innocent, is it morally acceptable for a group of progressive like-minded individuals to band together to defend the weak from this large group of organized bad people?

There is such a group, it's called the United States Marine Corps.

They do the same things which you claim you would do, except they do it more effectively against organized and armed bad people.

Now, why again is it that one course of action is morally acceptable for you and your family, but not morally acceptable for others?

How are you special?

 

My morals do not vary Will. All people are created equally, but I do not love them equally. That's a fact of life. Again, you're talking about family. It's different with family.

With that attitude, she won't be your wife for very long. I'm sorry, Will. I don't believe you here. I think that when the chips are falling, you'll side with your wife. And, I have to ask. Do you have children, Will? Children are an entirely different matter than your wife. There is nothing that most people wouldn't do for their child.

Pop Quiz Time...
You are dangling by your feet from under a helicopter. Your arms are free. Suddenly, 3 people fall out of the helicopter and are rushing towards you and headed past you to certain death. One is your wife, one is your daughter and one is a 20 year old Pakistani girl. You have 2 arms free and can only grab 2 people. What do you do???
If you're like most humans, you'll grab your wife and daughter and hold on for dear life. It's not that the 20 year old deserves to live any less than your family, but she's NOT family.

Correction... She has the same rights and freedoms as my wife. She is certainly not equal to my wife. There is a huge difference.

Yes, they should. In a perfect world, they would.

That's what we strive for, yes. It's in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

 

If this were actually true it would be a different story. In pakistan there are many tribal people who live OUTSIDE OF SOCIETIES boundries. A tribal court outside of the law is the equivalent to me as a judge in my backyard making rulings on your wife.

If we don't even have the ability to protect Iraqi's from bombs blowing up EVERY SINGLE DAY, how the hell do we have the ability to go invade all those countries you mentioned and stop them?

I've never heard a word out of you defending the 30,000 Iraqi civilians who have been killed by OUR BOMBS. I've never heard a word of you defending the MILLIONS MURDERED IN AFRICA.

There's a much larger problem than womens rights abuses in Lybia or Pakistan. It's the mass murder, mass starvation and Genocide going on EVERY SINGLE DAY in northern Africa. Why Will, as a person who cares so much about every innocent, do you never talk about these people? Why are you so interested in pointing out everything the Arab/Muslim community does instead?

 

By the way, Will..... I do commend you for your idealistic thinking. But, it is just that... idealistic. It's much more difficult to put into practice when faced with reality.

You originally posed a question and took an idealistic morally superior stance on it. My point still stands. Your question assumes that your morals are superior to those you speak of. They would also say the same of their morality. You also assume you have the ability to change it. I think this point is also in question, assuming that you even have the right to change it.

In an ideal world, these things wouldn't be happening. But, we don't live in an ideal world. There are people out there that you consider bad. Practically speaking, the best you can hope for is to protect your own (your family, your country, whatever). Outside of that, you really don't have jurisdiction so the question is moot.

 

debunked:

You are the wind beneath my wings.

You actually got gworld to go back and quote the post where the answer to his question was written, even if you couldn't get him to read the line in the post where his answer was written.

gworld went so far as to bold a different line in the post -- and one that showed where once again he was misrepresenting the truth. gworld may be ESL, as he does not appear to understand the difference between "my" and "an."

Reasons Why My Wife is My Authority on the Koran, and gworld Isn't

1. My wife can read.
2. gworld is barely literate, even in English.
3. My wife is fluent in Arabic, the only language in which the Koran is valid.
4. gworld doesn't read or write Arabic fluently. (gworld, please feel free to correct me if I am incorrect)
5. My wife has had many years of religious training.
6. gworld appears to be ignorant of religious knowledge, and actually hostile to religious knowledge. You can't learn until you open your mind.
7. My wife memorized the Koran.
8. gworld can't remember the topic of a message thread from one moment to the next.
9. My wife can quote the Koran, chapter and verse, from memory. (Of course, I can't understand it when she does.)
10. gworld can only quote using his mouse.
11. My wife has lived in more than one Muslim country and seen Islamic law in action, including viewing bodies decomposing in the town square.
12. gworld lives in a fantasy world where Osama bin Laden is just "misunderstood."
13. My wife is rational and analytical. She is able to objectively analyze a document like the Koran and make rational statements and judgements concerning its content.
14. gworld, well, enough said.

Actually, from an objective standpoint, although I stated that my wife was my authority on the Koran -- she really does qualify as an authority on the Koran by the M-W.com definition.

Oh, and did I mention that she has an IQ of 172?

 

Great post Will!

Gworld has been served!

 

will, maybe you should have your wife sign up and do some serving and let the rest of us just sit back and watch. But, she probably has more important things to do with her time.

I just went through the pages since my last post just now, wow... e10, I sometimes don't quite get you. I think I understood most of what you were trying to get at, but the part in you first post in here about racism, etc.. threw me, if you were pointing that at Will, but maybe it was towards someone else, did I miss something?

 

A good evening indeed! Was nice to sit back and watch astute oberservations on how things really are, Ayaan Hirsi Ali style

Nice job Will!

 

Now that we can all agree that your wife has no qualification or credential that make her an "AUTHORITATIVE" source on Islam, let's look at what we are left with:

1- She is an Arab and speaks Arabic, so millions of other people all over the world, what is special about her?

2- She supposedly studied Koran when she was young and so million of other people in Arabic countries.

3- Her family are bunch of assholes.

4- You think highly of her, little willy is impressed by her guns.

5- You don't understand what she says when she quotes Koran, so it is totally her interpretation and you have no idea if it is correct or not.

Are you seriously telling me that your whole bigot view of a religion, cultures in many different countries and millions of people is based on your wife said so?

I am sorry but I can not accept all your BS because your wife decided what you should think. Her decision to marry a scared little boy like you makes me very suspicious about her intelligence or analytical capacity.

 

As impatient as I am with stupidity, she is even more so.

But, she is considering building a web site on genetics, so perhaps it will happen some day.

 

Well... She would have to be. Wouldn't she, Will?

At 172, I can't imagine her home life is easy.

 

These threads usually move to quickly for me to comment. But Will, and everyone else patting him on the arse, must be talking about a totally different gworld to the one posting on here. I haven't got ANY of those points about him here. You're doing your usual Will thing and launching a character assasination against someone that actually stands up to you.

You bring up some really important topics here, and you're obviously well read and elequent enough to back up your arguement but you're also very much set in your opinions and never even seem to consider another viewpoint. Personally, I think you really enjoy these threads and getting a rise out of people. I see that in gworld and yo-yo too, which is why you often clash.

As for the issue at stake. It's hypocrital, but most people would fight tooth and nail for their own, but distance themselves from those in the next town, let alone another country and culture. The most people are willing to do about atrocities overseas is to tut and shake their head - then turn back to the TV and watch drivel.

 

Sorry, laziness on my part. Religism is not really a word but I guess the sentiment behind it better clarifies my feelings about this thread.