“I was standing at the edge of the fire (hell) and the majority of the people going in were women.†- Prophet Mohammed
Koran 4:3 states "And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two, three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course." Islam believes and promotes only one relationship between male and female and that is the relation of lust. "If a man and a woman are alone in one place, the third person present is the devil". Prophet Mohammed Polygamy is legal in Islam. A man may marry "four Permanent" and as many "Provisional" or temporary wives as he desires. In Islam, if a 6 or 7 year old girl is raped by an adult man, she will be the one that gets punished. It is her fault because she provoked it. The parents then will burn or kill her because she has dishonored the family. Koran says that "Men your wives are your tillage. Go into your tillage anyway you want". This means that a man is allowed to sodomise his wife and she cannot complain. brujj1, Even if there would be "moderate attempts" to reinterprete the meanings in the quran, can you do so with the haddiths and sunnahs? You see, something is fundamental wrong with islam. Mohammed preached his religion for 13 years and garnered only 150 followers. But when he turned to politics and war, in 10 years time he became the first ruler of Arabia by averaging an event of violence every 7 weeks for 9 years. His success did not come as a religious leader, but as a political leader.
Arnie, you have all the corrupted hadiths as your sources. that so called hadith about hell and women is not true. You are blaming Islam about the raped woman being beaten or punished. You seem to know a lot of verses, you must know about the blame of sexual act, or rape and the punishment for that - it is the same for men and women- why do you ignore that? You know what cultures are not able to change even when they adopt a new religion. This is all cultural b.s. I myself grew up in of those societies, and I hate it there. They have nothing to do with Islam. I used to sit and listen big guys talking about religion, then I saw how they treated their wives. I mean, they did not even see what they were doing. When did Prophet hurt his wives? When did the Prophet tell his wives that he was superior to them? When did the Prophet beat his wives? If you oppress people under the name of anything, they will end up refusing it. That's why "there is no compulsion in religion" said the Prophet and I believe that it is a verse in the Qur'an too. You can not teach religion with force! It has to touch the hearts. Whenever I see hadith that demeans women, I know this is not from the Prophet. I bet a bunch of men used those phrases to scare women, or tell other men to feel superior. You know how men always want to feel superiour to women otherwise they don't think they are men. This so called hadiths for me are by those men. I have no doubt in my heart that those are not from the Prophet. You think the Prophet was not afraid of Allh that he would say things like that? Where do you get these ideas? I have never read these in my studies. I took my Islamic Studies Masters in Canada. Don't believe everything you read about Islam, especially these days when everyone tries to blame Islam as the source of evil. This is the time to be aware of your sources. The Prophet himself has known to have said that he did not want his hadith to be recorded! Hadith collections began long after his death. Hadith and sunna includes so many peoples' words that the common people at the time took as authorities. They are not all Prophet's words or actions. Did you know that women today are much more oppressed than the Muslim women in the middle ages? When you look at the court records of 16th or 17th centuries, you come accross with recorded court cases in which you see women who were 13 sued their fathers in villages! I remember one case in which a 12 or 13 year old girl in a village asks for a divorce. The judge asks her why and she says "my father married me to my cousin and I was under age, now I am grown and in Islam a man can not take a woman in marriage against her will. I don't have will in this marriage." The judge asks "how can you prove to me that you are grown and you have the ability to decide for yourself" (remember, in Islam only the decisions of mentally mature people are taken, and the judge wanted to make sure that her divorce can be granted) The young woman says "look at me, do you see a girl or a woman!" The case shows that the judge granted the divorce to her. Now this is in a Muslim village! Can you believe that? But the cases are recorded and still kept in manuscripts. You can read these in scholarly journals in universities. I mean this is not a story this is real recorded court case!
My sources are natives of arabic languages and farsi etc., and easily capable to debate everyone. No muslim scholar so far wants to debate them. Why? Every Muslim is dancing around the issues. I thought he didn't want to have pictures drawn of him? He didn't want to have the shame revealed, he knew that he was wrong down the line. When you check about the history and facts of Islam, all the wars since 1400 years, what conclusion you think can be drawn? - and it hasn't stopped yet. If someone tries to change those facts, means nothing else than to renounce Islam and start something new. - Good luck -
As I was studying in Islamic Studies at McGill University in Montreal Canada. The first thing we had to learn was to be able to read a book and detect the ideas of "orientalists" who tried to show Islam as an ugly religion for centuries. This is not a new thing. Another important thing was to go to the primary sources and read them. Primary sourses are the origional sources which are written in the past centuries by the people about their own lives, like court cases. Court cases are the most important primary sources for Islamic history and culture. They are the only ones that show the life of the societies. Apart from these, I always ignore ideas of people especially about religion. People can talk all they want. But they can not take my religion from me by telling me that Islam opresses women and all that. I don't believe Allah is like that. I actually see things from another perspective. I see men as people who need more help in this world. NOT that I want to help them more! Not at all! But I think they need more help. Perhaps that's why they need to bound with other men so much! So you are blaming Muslims for all these wars? No one else has a part in it? It is not that they were attacked but they attacked everyone else. That's completely an orientalist view!
So you believe that but denounce the haddiths and sunnahs. Looks like in a convenience store to justify the cause? Do you realize the dualistics you have applied? And do you want to tell us that the Quran is not the center of every Muslim? Now its court cases?
As far as I remember Tabari did not write in Farsi. Moreover, Tabari always quoted several views as much as he could in his 12 or so volumes. He always said "so and so said this, and so and so said these..." after all that he gave his opinion. A very good scholar! We still use the same system. I looked at Tabari's 1st volume (the only one in English) I saw several women related stuff too. There were many quotes there which you would think demaining women, and many you could say praising women. You can not just take negative and then say this guy was bad. If you read Tabari in Farsi, it must have been translated into farsi. Before Islam, Iran had the worst rules for women. I think they were called Humbarabi rules! I remember reading, " husband can beat his wife, cut her ears, or nose but can not cut an arm..." from Humbarabi rules. I simply believe that society adopted Islam and still continued their cultures. So the bad treatment of women did not change, and even became so called "Islamic culture." I think you don't want to understand me. What I am saying is this: If you think Islam is opressive, how do you explain this court case? How could this happen? I understand the Prophet not wanting people record his words is because the Qur'an is the source. He is an example. The best example. He did not want his words to be taken equal to the Qur'an. You must have heard the hadith that says "if you hear a hadith and you think it is something that does not go with Qur'an, then you go with the Qur'an." You must have also heard that when you hear a hadith and you don't know what to think about it (you did not like it, you don't think it is from the Prophet...) you ask your own heart and then decide.
Oh boy, ~sigh~ now you found some old court papers and think that's it. There's an old proverb that says: "Exceptions confirm the rules".
No sentence has the equal importance as the verses of the Qur'an. But we need to know what the Prophet did in many situations. That's why people started collecting hadith long after the Prophet died. Situations changed, new societies accepted Islam, people had to look for the Prophetic sayings to decide what to do in those new situations. Everything started to be recorded and each new judge referred to the earlier judges' decisions to see how they decided in those cases. What you say "some old court papers" are gold in studying history. How do you think scholars work? You think we read a bunch of books written and sold here and there and then we write?
brujj1, you're coming up with one against thousands without even providing the proof. You mention something from old writings without evidence. We provide you hardcore proof of your pereverted believes. Your credibility is gone.
cold hard facts? such as the american solders playing football with the heads of the Iraqies? You mean what? Christianity is bad?
Not a link which backs the story up, but attempts to dissprove it http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog/2006/04/german_weekly_a.html I personally think this whole 'story' is a load of bs
1. is the story true? 2. if so were theses men punished for their wrongs? 3. Either way what does this have to do with Christianity? (Are these men in question proclaiming Christians or is this just another of the false ideas that are so prominant on this forum that all americans are somehow Christian?) 4. Either way does Christianity teach or even condone such acts? Really easy questions to answer if you are capable of being truthful, try to answer them.
thank you for the bad rep, please be man enough to put your name to it next time, just to prove you're man enough to back up your words of wisdom. or are you a mouse? yup a mouse has a bigger pair than you do. you just proved in your words what you treat women like
i think the coward was shit scared from day one like he said, and needed to dream up something to live off while on the run, it's like alex jones and 911, boy you yanks dream up stuff they make movies outta thats scacasm btw
I just want to give my opinions about this religion topics. This part is open for long time and all I see is people quoting from Quran or other holy books and then giving their own opinion about that quote. Please remember that those days were different, conditions were also different. Every religion is getting modernized day by day. I'm a Turk and my religion is Islam but I'm not a good believer. However, it is really not nice to quote something from a holy book and tell that "This religion tells to kill women, rape women, have more than 5 wife" etc. Everybody on the world believes in something. Even the non-believers believe that there isn't a creator. It is really not a good behavior to express your ideas in a non-polite way and in an insulting way to the believers of the religion. At the end, this is like supporting a football team, even if you know that they have wrong sides, you don't tell it or act like you are supporting it. Same thing with religions. Please know that you can't make a man believe in your religion. Or you can't make them hate their own religions. We are all human and we all believe in something and lastly, please don't judge people with their beliefs.
If we scratch through all the major religious books be it islam, christianity or hinduism , we will get lots of dirt. Talking about women , i happened to write something on the status of women in mughal india. "Khan-i-Azam Mirza Aziz Koka put it back then ‘A man has to marry four wives: a Persian to talk with and make love, a Churassian (khurasani) to keep the household, a Hindu to look for the children and one from Mewar Un Nahir or Transoxiana to whip in order to deter the three other’. Women during the mughal period were nothing more than “prized possesionsâ€. link