When you play chess enough, one can always anticipate their opponent's next move. Especially when they use the same 2-3 strategies over and over. The only denial taking place is on your part. In the presence of overwhelming information, as usual, denial seems to be your preferred strategy. Checkmate...
You don't seem to have answered my question. Are you denying that the word that has been translated into 'beat', can be translated into other words? When did you become an expert in the arabic language GTech or Islam for that matter?
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sr&ID=SR2704 There are so many more here that it's rather impossible to list them all. So the question isn't: When did you become an expert in the arabic language GTech? The real question is: When did you not become an expert in the arabic language nokiaking? That ought to keep you in denial for a little while longer.
I see you have once again decided to avoid the question:I'll repeat again Are you denying that the word that has been translated into 'beat', can be translated into other words? Did you know GTech that everything you need to know to live as a muslim is in the Quran, you do not need scholars and co telling you what to do?. So giving quotes from scholars which instruct beating of the wife does not automatically make it part of Islam. Islam is the Quran- in which there is no mention of wife beating. And the answer to your question, ever since arabic has been my mother tounge, which is more than can be said for you. Just answer the question GTech... Are you denying that the word that has been translated into 'beat', can be translated into other words?
nokiaking, I see you are in hiding as a "guest" waiting for my response. Everything you need is in my last post. How one can *honestly* deny such and continue to lie is beyond me. You seek my answer repeatedly, ye my answer is above, in the overwhelming evidence that shows the quran does instruct me they can beat their wives and the many, many books and clerics who preach such. The translation card has failed you, once again. It is not "I" that you should take issue with. I'm simply aware of what you seek to cover up. You should be taking issue with those I've noted above, the many who *do understand* what the quran says and use it as justification to promote wife beating in islam. They should be your target, not those who are aware of what they say. The quran makes it very clear. allah would not be pleased with you for attempting to mask his truth.
No, why do I need to hide as a guest, i'm not that obsessed. The reason I keep logging in and out is that i'm trying to finish my essay on pain channels but keep getting lured back to digitalpoint!!! You STILL haven't answered the question, why? I'll repeat it again in the hope that you can answer it: Are you denying that the word that has been translated into 'beat', can be translated into other words? (I've even made the size bigger and a different colour, just in case you miss it) Quotes from scholars do not exactly as overwhelming evidance for a subject on Islam, The only evidance is the Quran, in which it doesn't encourage wife beating, but the word that has been used in the TRANSLATION to english has several meaning. Whether you Believe it or not, its still the truth p.s Be a man and answer the question: Are you denying that the word that has been translated into 'beat', can be translated into other words? simple yes or no will do
nokiaking, is this your last failed attempt at some sort of argument? My answer is above. The quran does instruct men to beat women and I've documented countless that preach this position. Stop lying and trying to make the issue about translation. Your translation card argument holds no water.
http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sr&ID=SR2704 There are so many more here that it's rather impossible to list them all. So the question isn't: When did you become an expert in the arabic language GTech? The real question is: When did you not become an expert in the arabic language nokiaking? That ought to keep you in denial for a little while longer.
YOU STILL HAVEN'T ANSWERED THE QUESTION !!!!!!: Are you denying that the word that has been translated into 'beat', can be translated into other words?
even if it can be translated to mean other things, they are also means of oppression, i read the list of words you said it can also mean, but the main point is this, that most of you take it yourselfs to mean "beat" and do beat your women, wheather or not you can use that word for another meaning, the proof is in your actions, and that means you beat your women.
Why not? Documenting countless that preach this position does not automatically make it right and become part of a religion. Some christians believe that it is right to hate homosexuals, it even says in the bible. Would it be fair to assume that hating homosexuals is part of christianity?.... Do you know what, I really can't be bothered any more Believe what you like, and I'll believe what I want it really doesn't matter
you shouting like that make me wonder if ya gonna beat me in the next post edited for Gtech's fave colour.
http://forums.digitalpoint.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Of course, I am not denying that women are being beaten, I am just highlighting the fact that the Quran does not allow the beating of women, these people are just using misinterprated translations as an excuse. By the way, I don't 'beat my women'!! By the way please don't generalise the actions of others to the whole population, not all muslims . Wife beating is not a part of Islam. I think these paragraphs describe what I am trying to say better... "In fact Sura 4, which is entitled "The Women," is one of the longest chapters in the Quran and deals with many of the rights and responsibilities of women, rights that were first available to western women only a few decades ago, and some that still aren't. The theme of this Sura is to defend women's rights, and countering injustice and oppression of women. Thus, any interpretation of verses in Sura 4 must be in favor of the women, not the other way around. Unfortunately sura 4 is extremely abused by many of these so-called "Muslim" men in the world. While disregarding their own obligations and their own righteousness, these men only focus on themselves and give themselves the excuse to beat their wives. They find support for their misguided and biased views, and for treating their spouses unjustly, in the fabrications of the so called Hadith and Sunna. They misrepresent the true Islam "
No that was just for GTech's benefit, I wondered if he hadn't seen the question as he hasn't answered it in his last two posts. Hopefully it will catch his attention now though
I'm flattered It's a shame that repeatedly calling for an answer to something that's already been answered and denial are the only things you have left. You can't even start to imagine how comforting that is for me! Could you make the font a little bigger and use blue next time? Blue is my favorite color And far be it from me to suggest kitman strategies, but if you don't mind, I'd like to help you out a little. Instead of the translation card (which has failed you quite miserably), have you considered using moral equivalence instead? It can be an effective strategy if done right. PM me if you want, and I can help you put together an argument in private to use against me in public.
from top to bottom point #1 the only guy that knows 100% what he wrote, is dead so no-one know 100% for sure what he meant, sadly, we have to go by the actions of the leaders and followers of the majority of the states, that do oppress and beat, kill, humiliate, thier women. although i accept this is not all muslims, it is infact the majority. small action like keeping the women covered, so they never feel the breeze blow through their hair, never feel the sun on their backs, cannot walk beside or in front of thier men, thier place is 10 foot behind. thats being put in your place, with subtle abuses. bold #2 here's the deal, when you start to defend the oppressed women, the girls given 100 lashes for being a rape victim, because she lived she didnt fight hard enough to protect her honnor. the 16 year old child abuse victim that was hung in iran while the 52 year old taxi driver that had been sexually abusing her from 13, got 90 lashes. the girl shot in the head at the football stadium to a roaring public. when the women can feel the sun and breeze in thier hair and on their back, when you all speak up to defent the womens rights to life, free from fear, and activly make some changes, i'll keep my mouth shut. while you do nothing, someone has to speak up for the hung 16 year old, i wont allow her short life to die in vain. i wont allow rape victims to become victims of abuse by the state. someone has to speak up for them. and i'll tell you know, you're talking to a rape victim that spent 6 weeks in hospital after what he did to a child. bold #3 so you admit it goes on, just dont condem them and speak out for change. how many meeting did you attend last year, asking for change? none i bet. well if my words force embarresment to all the good muslims, and force them to act, then i feel i have made a change. until i see that happening, then you'll have to put up with me. for that i'll say sorry to you now.
But the thing is GTech that you haven't answered the question, please post the link and highlight your yes/no answer to the question! Sorry the font size used was the largest and I have taken note to use blue next time, now... bold and underlined? or not? The translation is NOT correct however much you try to accept it By the way have also PM'ed you
The point I am trying to make is that Islam should not be held responsible and blamed, its the people that carry out these attacks. Just because they follow a religion and claim its part of the religion doesn't mean its correct. I genuinely did not understand what you are trying to say here. By the way I attended many meetings and discussions on Islam, violence against women and various other topics last year and this year. The best one I can remeber was held at the church in our city (me and sam are from the same city, people) by the amnesty international group But being a student it does occasionally limit the amount of participation. But I try and do my bit, I'm involved in all the Islamic events and amnesty international events at Uni. So saying that I don't condemn this behaviour and don't speak out is not really fair, I try to do my bit. I do understand what you are saying here and I do agree more should be done by muslims themselves to stamp out this behaviour
I didn't answer with a yes or no, I answered with facts. Come on, GTech's been around the corner a few times! I know better then to fall into the trap of such misleading questions. I understand though, it's really all you could offer when in fact, I quoted direct scriptures from the quran, along with numerous resources, including a book written by a muslim for muslim men to learn how to beat their wives. I mean, in the presence of the truth, denial is all that's left, right? The translation card doesn't work well, when so many in your religion (as I've noted) see the translation in it's correct context. Once again, no sources on your part either. Denial is the only source you seem to have. PS, check my PM I sent. Might consider trying that out as a strategy to obfuscate wife beating in islam. It's worth a try.