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Will Table Designs Die out?

Discussion in 'CSS' started by pr0xy122, May 20, 2007.

  1. Dan Schulz

    Dan Schulz Peon

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    #21
    If it was all CSS, you'd have no HTML code to go along with it, and thus no Web page. ;)
    SEMrush
     
    Dan Schulz, May 22, 2007 IP
    SEMrush
  2. pr0xy122

    pr0xy122 Peon

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    #22
    Lol the "abuse" of tables, perfect way of describing it. :)
     
    pr0xy122, May 22, 2007 IP
  3. Circadian

    Circadian Peon

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    #23
    lol, I just had that argument last night with my wife. She was on the side of tables.
     
    Circadian, May 22, 2007 IP
  4. AdamSee

    AdamSee Well-Known Member

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    #24
    The double margin, duplicate characters, hasLayout problem, 3px jog, peekaboo bug, box model hack, float containing, position relative fix and other wierd behaviors suggest otherwise.
     
    AdamSee, May 23, 2007 IP
    liamvictor likes this.
  5. Dan Schulz

    Dan Schulz Peon

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    #25
    All of which (save for hasLayout and the Box Model Hack - the latter if you have to support IE 5 and need pixel perfect control) can easily be overcome or avoided by learning how to code properly in the first place. It takes time, but it can be done with some perserverence. I've found that minimal coding (as in coding your stylesheet to work with yoru HTML rather than your HTML to work with your stylesheet, and using the bare minimum of HTML markup, treating every block-level element as a separate "object" that can be manipulated with CSS and the DOM rather than thinking in grids and DIVs) goes a long way towards achieving this. :)
     
    Dan Schulz, May 23, 2007 IP
  6. AdamSee

    AdamSee Well-Known Member

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    #26
    Coding properly insinuates that anyone who uses workarounds isn't coding properly. Which obviously is wrong, because browser workarounds themselves are caused by poor interpretation of the css specifications.

    However, if you've got some samples on your take of 'proper coding' - without the need for browser workarounds - I'd love to have a look.
     
    AdamSee, May 23, 2007 IP
  7. soulscratch

    soulscratch Well-Known Member

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    #27
    i concur fully, bout time someone who has a clue replies.
     
    soulscratch, May 23, 2007 IP
  8. Leox Adir

    Leox Adir Guest

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    #28
    I think it's easier with tables. But I use DIV's. But I don't think they'll die out.
     
    Leox Adir, May 23, 2007 IP
  9. Mooseman

    Mooseman Peon

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    #29
    tables and divs over and over and over and over again, don't you ever get tired of this discussion? This has already been discussed a million times here, ask someone who knows what they are talking about, half of the people here doesn't even now what they're on about anyway
     
    Mooseman, May 25, 2007 IP
  10. HuggyCT2

    HuggyCT2 Guest

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    #30
    Tables are used alot still as people can make them in html generators like Dreamweaver. But for a fast loading and easy to customise styled site. Divs and CSS are the key. I always code in tableless Valid XHTML and CSS this is the standard expected these days.
     
    HuggyCT2, May 26, 2007 IP
  11. Dan Schulz

    Dan Schulz Peon

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    #31
    Actually, "DIVs" are not the key. They are a part of the key. Clean, semantic and valid structural (HTML) and presentational (CSS) markup, combined (optional, of course) with unobtrusive and accessible client-side scripting (JavaScript) combined (optional, of course) with a back-end that separates the content fron the structure and logic are the key.

    Just my two cents, of course.
     
    Dan Schulz, May 26, 2007 IP
  12. Dan Schulz

    Dan Schulz Peon

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    #32
    Adam, I never said that all workarounds are the result of coding improperly. Some, like the use of .htc files or JavaScript to overcome IE 6's lack of understanding for PNG alpha transparency, min-max width/height and use of :hover on anything other than anchors (among a few other things) is an accepted fact of life, and will not be knocked by me as being the product of sloppy coding.

    What does get me is when people "design for Firefox and then IE" while conveniently forgetting to check in all four of the major rendering engines as they go along, making changes here and there to make sure the same code works equally well on Trident, Gecko, Presto and KHTML/Webkit (except for the types of functionality I listed above). Which usually results in the end result being "but it works in Firefox!" and having to hack their entire design to death in IE when testing as they went along (add or change an element, test, test and test again) could have prevented the mess in the first place.

    Of course, not everyone can be expected to code to such a high standard from the get-go; only education and experience can provide the knowledge necessary to do that. The approach I chose to take involves separating the document structure from the presentation as much as possible (this goes even to the extreme of putting the menu as a sibling of the header, rather than a child, so I can reuse the same HTML code the next time I change the presentation of a given site).

    If you'd like to see some examples of what I mean by all this, feel free to reply here. I'm in the process of updating my standard Web site template (it's image free, but perfectly capable of handling them - it's just an experiment but with a few quick changes can be used for production-grade work), so when I'm done I'll be more than happy to post it here. I'll probably post it on SitePoint as well so that the members there can learn from it and enjoy it as well.
     
    Dan Schulz, May 27, 2007 IP
  13. login

    login Notable Member

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    #33
    I think that table design is dead already. You have the lazy old coders that dont bother to learn css, but they are a dying race.
     
    login, May 27, 2007 IP
  14. zonzon

    zonzon Peon

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    #34
    Web standards and CSS based design are definitely the way forward.
    Table based design will be around for a long time. To encourage developer buy-in we need to lead by example and help reduce the barriers to entry. Not create new barriers. We need to be honest and up-front about the benefits as well as the cost. Developing CSS sites can be hard and it can time consuming. In certain circumstances using tables for layout can make much more sense than CSS.
     
    zonzon, May 27, 2007 IP
  15. AdamSee

    AdamSee Well-Known Member

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    #35
    That's totally cool y'know, because the criticism I have is that html isn't that maintainble when switching site designs - you're usually going to have to change something in order to accomodate the new design due to a prior design decision. Therein lies the first problem with super lean mark-up. If you've got nothing to hook onto, you're going to have a hell of of time implementing rounded, expandable (horizontally & vertically), corners inside one <blockquote> where the <p> tag is already being used to graphically add a top left quote image, and the bottom right quote image is controlled by the <blockquote> element.

    Additionally moving elements outside of items, just to allow complete ease of style seperation means a document can lose it's semantic meaning - not in the case you mentioned specifically, but in cases where elements lose their selectioning, taking style seperation to it's extreme in a bad way. Especially as both html5 & xhtml2.0 are promoting this practice ('<section>', '<h>', '<item>') greatly in the next specifications.

    However, I'm all up for killing divs when they can be killed. Unfortunately with the current browser support accomodations (IE5+, occasionally IE5.2/mac <-- div city) it's not always possible or practical. Mostly it doesn't matter too much if the data is seperated away from the front-end and the site's very template-based.

    Finally, looking forward to seeing your html layout, you've thought a lot about it and I'm sure it'll be great fun testing and perhaps learning to produce a more cohesive development process between different sites.
     
    AdamSee, May 29, 2007 IP
  16. Dan Schulz

    Dan Schulz Peon

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    #36
    It does depend on what you use as hooks, and how many of them are required. But for those rare times when I do have to add something, I thank myself that I use PHP includes to make the easy site-wide changes. :)

    I don't even support Mac-IE anymore. It's been four years since that browser was officially declared dead, so if I DO have to support it, I'll give it plain text. :)
     
    Dan Schulz, May 30, 2007 IP
  17. Dan Schulz

    Dan Schulz Peon

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    #37
    A hook is an extra HTML tag, class or ID that you use specifically for styling the appearance of a Web page.
     
    Dan Schulz, Jun 12, 2007 IP
  18. leede

    leede Guest

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    #38
    seem to be , but many old hands still like to use table as their army tools.
     
    leede, Jun 12, 2007 IP
  19. LeetPCUser

    LeetPCUser Peon

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    #39
    They are already dying out.
     
    LeetPCUser, Jun 13, 2007 IP