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Will Obama Raise Taxes on Working Class Americans? - Proof Please.

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by GeorgeB., Oct 20, 2008.

  1. Firegirl

    Firegirl Peon

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    #41
    Maybe because people who make $45K a year strive to make $300K a year one day and don't want to be screwed in taxes when they get there....SEMrush
     
    Firegirl, Oct 21, 2008 IP
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    SEMrush
  2. GeorgeB.

    GeorgeB. Notable Member

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    #42
    Sadly though, with top down economics working against them those at the bottom will have a tougher time getting there. Not an easier one.

    I'd rather be rich, sitting on a beach complaining about the goddamn government digging in my pocket than be poor and wishing the government digging in my pocket wasn't forcing me to decide between electricity and food.
     
    GeorgeB., Oct 21, 2008 IP
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  3. jkjazz

    jkjazz Peon

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    #43
    I thought we were talking about "Will Obama Raise Taxes on Working Class Americans?" Are you really trying to answer the question or is this just another Republican Slam-Fest?

    Good Advice. :rolleyes:
     
    jkjazz, Oct 21, 2008 IP
  4. GeorgeB.

    GeorgeB. Notable Member

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    #44
    Nope, I just gave up on trying to keep it on topic.

    Out of 3 pages only 4 posts are on topic including the original.
     
    GeorgeB., Oct 21, 2008 IP
  5. jkjazz

    jkjazz Peon

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    #45
    So what did you conclude? Will Obama Raise Taxes on Working Class Americans?

    edit:
    I saw a dozen on topic posts on the first page alone. :confused:

    Looks like you got your answer and didn't like. Then so you decided to take the conversation somewhere else.
     
    jkjazz, Oct 21, 2008 IP
  6. GeorgeB.

    GeorgeB. Notable Member

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    #46
    No one provided proof so it looks like I should continue to believe that he will not.
     
    GeorgeB., Oct 21, 2008 IP
  7. northpointaiki

    northpointaiki Guest

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    #47
    Forgive me if I've come late and missed something, but this notion has been brought up on another thread. To the notion that higher marginal rates on high earners will effect a net effective loss to all others, there I said in part:

    Or,

    See also the two articles embedded there. One of them shows, among other things:

    Does it not strike anyone as odd when we have the historical record, that belies the simple supply and demand curve at the heart of the "poisonous stew" argument embedded in a progressive taxation system?

    Earlpearl's excellent post addresses this as well - I really appreciate Earl's views, here, because he's a guy who has lived what he writes. His is a long-term view, with experiential depth, from what I know of him and his career:

    The other article cited goes into the historical record to compare tax cuts to growth. It finds, among many other things:

    McCain's long-term budget deficit is going to be worse than Obama's, as evaluated by neutral observers (as shown previously, on this forum). Bottom line, the world is not a simple supply and demand curve. It seems to me that to argue from it is just really missing the boat.
     
    northpointaiki, Oct 21, 2008 IP
  8. earlpearl

    earlpearl Well-Known Member

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    #48
    Firegirl: When I see this comment and then see what you wrote here with regard to where you work....and specifically this part....

    I salute you if you are one of those folks who want to get from the lower income level to the upper income level.

    Frankly I was there.

    TBH, I don't understand the concern about tax rates. I know when I made the jump I was totally focused on the income side, not the tax side. (I did it when marginal rates of taxes on high incomes in my state were roughly 50%--39.6% fed and about 10% state).

    Who cares about taxes at that basis--especially if you want to make that big income jump. You have to be very entrepreneurial. Either your own income/fees have to jump like crazy or you have to have a business w/ people working for you...and be profitable so their efforts make you big money. You obviously don't do it being an assistant at a lab working for some SOB who spends it on his wife.

    And no offense taken on that. Maybe your web efforts will take you there, maybe you are doing something different. Maybe you'll figure out a way to take over dental labs and have a bunch of people working for you. Whichever way you do it.

    Its a great goal to actually want to jump from one income level to the other. Its all in the implementation, the work, luck, etc.

    If I was in your shoes I'd care less about tax rates on me and less about tax rates on the dentist....I'd put my efforts into getting me into that higher income category.

    Good luck.
     
    earlpearl, Oct 21, 2008 IP
  9. homebizseo

    homebizseo Peon

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    #49
    The democrats' plan in the end will have the government digging in the poor and the middle class's pocket forcing the poor and middle class to decide between electricity and food. In 8 years Obama will be calling on Prof. Stanislav Menshikov, Tatyana Koryagina, and Evsei Liberman trying to get the economy and government to follow their new found direction.
     
    homebizseo, Oct 21, 2008 IP
  10. jkjazz

    jkjazz Peon

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    #50
    Well, here's the problem.

    "Does Obama PLAN to raise taxes?" Prove it!

    George will just cast you aside because Obama has not been caught saying that he is planning to raise taxes on the working class. It is a very narrow question that he has carefully crafted to convey one, singular answer.

    Now he has also asked the question in a different way:

    "Will Obama Raise Taxes on Working Class Americans? - Proof Please."

    You can look at all of the evidence that shows that we will end up with less money in our pocket, but because the tax is levied on "Big Business" and not on the "Working Class Americans", George chooses to cast this evidence aside and will not reply as if he didn't hear you. :rolleyes:

    When the case is made that any taxes on Big Business or Big Oil are immediately passed on to the consumer, George goes off topic in his own thread, refusing to address the data that disputes his claim.

    "No one provided proof so it looks like I should continue to believe that he will not."

    :rolleyes:
     
    jkjazz, Oct 21, 2008 IP
  11. GeorgeB.

    GeorgeB. Notable Member

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    #51
    Egads!! Foiled again. I would have gotten away with it too, had it not been for you meddling kids!

    You see you're right and wrong. My question was absolutely formulated to only have one logical answer. But you're wrong about my intentions. My intention is ( man, I feel like I've explained this before....) was to point out that the McCain campaign flat out stating that "Obama plans to raise taxes on the working middle class" is factually inaccurate. Period.

    Now had they said "the effect of Obama's plan will end up raising the amount you lose out of pocket" we could have then easily had a nice discussion about that like this thread turned into but that wasn't the point. They deliberately worded it like that because they want to cast him as lying and that he will actually and literally raise your taxes. Because be honest. That's all most Americans are listening for... that a candidate is lying, and that he will literally raise their taxes. But it's just not true. And they know that but like I said they are going for a particular effect here.

    You see we can argue about the effects of his plan (frankly we're not economists and not even remotely qualified to but we can) and have a fair debate. I'd love to! But when you ask a specific question like that and force people to answer questions directly instead of imitating their favorite politician and spinning it you can only come to an A/B black/white Yes/No answer.

    See what I mean now?

    So sorry my question was too narrow for you. It sucks to have to answer a question directly with no spin room. :(

    As for this:
    Well first of all nice try but you call me casting it aside, I call it you changing the subject and not answering the question. ehh, what can ya do :)

    But we can start a thread and discuss that if you like. But since you're Captain On-Topic now with me... can I get a yes or no?
     
    GeorgeB., Oct 21, 2008 IP
  12. homebizseo

    homebizseo Peon

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    #52
    Are you serious? You gotta be joking. If he eliminates tax cut he is raising those taxes. Anyways Obama is just proposing and until he gets into office it's just all talk. The first ninety days in office Obama should be able to pass anything he wants, that will determine if he is just a man of catch phrases.
     
    homebizseo, Oct 21, 2008 IP
  13. GeorgeB.

    GeorgeB. Notable Member

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    #53
    Look at the top of your browser and read for the class what the title of this thread is.

    Good, now that you actually know what we're all talking about you may continue to participate.
     
    GeorgeB., Oct 21, 2008 IP
  14. homebizseo

    homebizseo Peon

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    #54
    Are you lost? Yes he will raise taxes on the middle class. Yes
    It is a very simple answer.
     
    homebizseo, Oct 21, 2008 IP
  15. northpointaiki

    northpointaiki Guest

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    #55
    There are several lines of artful dodging going on in the thread.

    1. Some are arguing that his tax cut will result in a net result loss to "buyers" in the economy, because of increased costs to wealthier producers and individuals. That has been contested, with historical evidence, and it is simply being ignored.

    2. Some (and some of the same) are arguing that Obama will literally raise taxes on working families. False. Several non-partisan sources have debunked this, many times. One (and there are many others):

    3. It is flatly untrue that Obama's intended rescinsion of the bush tax cuts was aimed at middle class/working families. He has never said this - quite the opposite - and in this, the McCain camp has said it is in agreement. Respecting the Bush tax cuts, the only difference is that for top earners, Obama wants to let the cuts expire. As Earl rightly points out - before he got choked to within an inch of his political life by the right wing of his party, this is what McCain wanted too:

     
    northpointaiki, Oct 21, 2008 IP
  16. homebizseo

    homebizseo Peon

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    #56
    If Obama takes control of the White house with gas over 3.50 per gallon, Obama's tax plan and health insurance mandates will sky-rocket unemployment. On the other hand if gas price fall close to Pre-Katrina prices, the economy will get a boost from lower fuel prices and the Obama's plan will not be as devastating.
     
    homebizseo, Oct 21, 2008 IP
  17. GeorgeB.

    GeorgeB. Notable Member

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    #57
    Proof please. I don't want some link to economic opinion on his plan I want proof that Barack Obama's plan is to raise taxes on the middle class as you just stated.

    Thanks.
     
    GeorgeB., Oct 21, 2008 IP
  18. homebizseo

    homebizseo Peon

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    #58
    You don't want a link? Give me proof its not going to raise taxes on the middle class. Don't give me a link, I want proof.
     
    homebizseo, Oct 21, 2008 IP
  19. GeorgeB.

    GeorgeB. Notable Member

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    #59
    Nice try :D

    A link would be fine. As long as it's not a link to someone's economic opinion of what the effects of his plan will be.

    You just stated that Barack's plan will raise taxes on the middle class. Show me the link to where it says that in his plan.

    Like I said before if I have to spell everything out for you this is gonna take forever :(
     
    GeorgeB., Oct 21, 2008 IP
  20. northpointaiki

    northpointaiki Guest

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    #60
    What I find puzzling is this.

    1 is debatable, as it goes to economic conclusions. 2 and 3 are simple statements of facts. On what basis, Biz, would you wish to dispute 2, 3?
     
    northpointaiki, Oct 21, 2008 IP