1. Advertising
    y u no do it?

    Advertising (learn more)

    Advertise virtually anything here, with CPM banner ads, CPM email ads and CPC contextual links. You can target relevant areas of the site and show ads based on geographical location of the user if you wish.

    Starts at just $1 per CPM or $0.10 per CPC.

wikipedia does not respect religion

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by ala101, Jan 9, 2008.

  1. Zibblu

    Zibblu Guest

    Messages:
    3,770
    Likes Received:
    98
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #81
    I think that's ridiculous. And as you see America is NOT on that list and I hope we are never added to such a list. I think denying the holocaust is pretty stupid but to make it illegal is even more stupid. There shouldn't be such exemptions for free speech. To me that's a very slippery slope. First they say what someone else thinks isn't acceptable... but after awhile they'll also say what YOU think isn't acceptable. Free speech must be protected in all cases, especially when it's offensive to other people.
     
    Zibblu, Jan 10, 2008 IP
  2. northpointaiki

    northpointaiki Guest

    Messages:
    6,876
    Likes Received:
    187
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #82
    I'd appreciate some thoughts on posts #77 and #80. Thanks.
     
    northpointaiki, Jan 10, 2008 IP
  3. wisdomtool

    wisdomtool Moderator Staff

    Messages:
    15,825
    Likes Received:
    1,367
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    455
    #83
    This has been a great discussion, glad that not much bashing especially on so sensitive a topic. But I would like to add one thing mainstream Muslims should condemn misuse of jihad and the Prophet's name and the Islamic religion in general for such crazy things like ice cream cones etc.

    You don't go on jihad over a cone of ice cream. Such publicity does not help Islam's image at all. Even though Burger king withdraw, it is not a victory for Muslims, it is extreme bad publicity. There are much better ways to advise Burger King on such matters.
     
    wisdomtool, Jan 10, 2008 IP
  4. killafawk

    killafawk Active Member

    Messages:
    2,248
    Likes Received:
    36
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    90
    #84
    yeah you know stuff like throwing a teacher in jail for letting a kid name its teddy bear Muhammad shows wonders about your religion, I respect all religions but you need to realize that anyone who isn't muslim probably doesn't care what your rules are and on top of that when stuff like this happens you all wanna start a jihad and try and force people to change there position on things.

    A lot of muslims know what is wrong and right but when you have a bunch of babies crying over stuff like this... Its just how do you expect to be respected by the world when you demand it. Sorry but when stuff like this goes on and a religion is backing it, just makes me happy i ain't affiliated with one. Religion claims peace but with attitudes like this, if there never was muslims or christians the world would be a safer place thats for sure.
     
    killafawk, Jan 10, 2008 IP
  5. Rub3X

    Rub3X Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,902
    Likes Received:
    75
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    135
    #85
    Couldn't have said it better myself. This is only hurting the Muslim image even further.
     
    Rub3X, Jan 10, 2008 IP
  6. ala101

    ala101 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    863
    Likes Received:
    13
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    110
    #86
    Hello northpointaiki!
    actually yes , in islam we have the full description of our prophet Mohammad .
    Here is a simple article that have some description of him :
    Description of the Prophet Mohammed (SAW)

    word description is OK in islam . From this description we can learn about our prophet and so we can try to be like him , in his morals, ethics and great attitude. And many people (even non-muslims) who read about him are proud that Mohammad has been sent to the humanity , for example Michael H. Hart the author of "The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History" who chose Mohammad to be the "Most Influential Person in history".

    So any words description is ok with no problem , but images, illustrations and animation or anything like that is not allowed and that is logical and make sense since nobody on Earth has a real image of Mohammad , so any drawn image will not be real and will be offense to muslims . We all love to see him but we don't have his image at all and this doesn't mean we accept artists to imagine how he looks like and draw him.

    i think the issue is clear that we know it is an illustration my friend :)
    and as i explained even illustrations are not allowed ..
    You know , there is a whole movie about our prophet Mohammad called "The Message" .. imagine that the whole movie has no images or illustrations about him :) and that movie has been watched in America and other countries with all respect to us and our prophet.

    northpointaiki,
    yes my friend , it is considered haram (taboo) to show such images or illustrations of prophets or Allah.
    For educational purposes its ok to write about those issues or speak about them , but not providing those images again as "educational" coz this is still haram in our beliefs .

    Thanks for the example , but as that is an example of a Christ , then that case is related to Christianity belief , whether they accept it according to their beliefs or not.

    If the issue is only represent me or Muslims who are like me , then i like to say that wikipedia has been never ever a religion resource for me :)
    I rely on the islam resources ( Quran and Hadith) in learning islam , if i misunderstand anything or need any clarification , then i go to any of those islamic books which illustrate islam the right way.

    Now the issue is for the new comers to islam or to those muslims or even non-muslims who just search for knowledge about Mohammad pbuh and see that image at wikipedia.

    wikipedia as an encyclopedia should be reliable as Britannica and the World encyclopedia by returning to certified references of religion when talking about religion issues.
     
    ala101, Jan 11, 2008 IP
  7. Rub3X

    Rub3X Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,902
    Likes Received:
    75
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    135
    #87

    That's all fine and dandy but the majority of the world doesn't see this as offensive.
     
    Rub3X, Jan 11, 2008 IP
  8. northpointaiki

    northpointaiki Guest

    Messages:
    6,876
    Likes Received:
    187
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #88
    Hi Ala -

    If you'll re-read my post, what I'm getting at is that the descriptions are not only related to his moral character, but contain extremely precise descriptions of his looks as well:

    http://www2.let.uu.nl/Solis/anpt/ejos/pdf4/07Ali.pdf

    (Refer to page 8 and 9).

    So, as I said, this seems something like verbal "painting" to me, as I get a very exact image in mind, given the depth of description in the text. That being so, I wanted a discussion of this, given the prohibition against visual representations of Muhammed. Sorry to repeat, but I think the point was missed. Again,

    (As I understand it, the 17th century calligrapher Hafiz Osman wrote the narrative, based on an apparent original description from Muhammed's cousin and son in law, Ali Bin Alu Tahib).

    You missed the point, Ala. You said,

    And I maintain it is providing an educational resource. Wiki states the taboo, quite clearly and quite exhaustively, for such a brief article.

    You are incorrectly looking at my example in terms of Christian sensibilities. My example wasn't to justify or deny Christian sensibilities, but to draw a parallel example to the Wiki article, to illustrate that Wiki's article is very much an educational resource. By discussing the historical significance of the painting and the painter's banishment under the Inquisition, I very much find a parallel with wiki's discussion of the taboo of representations of Muhammed, while providing examples of historical paintings.The museum wasn't a Christian museum, but a history museum.

    I understand why this troubles you, and would say you have every right to request Wiki to take them down, but again, wiki is a private site - it isn't required to do anything it doesn't wish to do. (Personally, I wouldn't want them down - they represent important historical artifacts, in my opinion).
     
    northpointaiki, Jan 11, 2008 IP
  9. Rub3X

    Rub3X Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,902
    Likes Received:
    75
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    135
    #89
    Well if you realize it's a depiction stop complaining about it being a fake image. Then get a reality check and realize nobody cares what crazy religious doctrine you've been brain washed to follow.
     
    Rub3X, Jan 11, 2008 IP
  10. northpointaiki

    northpointaiki Guest

    Messages:
    6,876
    Likes Received:
    187
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #90
    Rub, you have no more moral right to speak to Ala in this way than he has to demand the images go.
     
    northpointaiki, Jan 11, 2008 IP
  11. The Webmaster

    The Webmaster IdeasOfOne

    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    718
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    360
    #91

    Yeah I understand, that is why some of the Muslims are not loyal to the countries they are living in because they don't consider themselves as a part of that country but a non-existing nation.

    Yeah and since you are not bound to obey the law of another country, no one is bound to obey the laws of another religion.
     
    The Webmaster, Jan 11, 2008 IP
  12. godofwriting

    godofwriting Banned

    Messages:
    302
    Likes Received:
    11
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #92
    No offence but I smell some bigotry here. There are no more Muslims in a country that disobey its laws than there are Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jew etc. So, I can't see how you can blame the "non-existing nation" (as you put it) of the Muslims for the actions of extremists.

    We all have our own religious laws and abide by them. I, as an atheist, have my own faith and I'd never let anyone impose their own beliefs on me but I wouldn't slander their entire religion just because one of them tried to.
     
    godofwriting, Jan 11, 2008 IP
  13. The Webmaster

    The Webmaster IdeasOfOne

    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    718
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    360
    #93
    We are not talking about Christians, Hindus or Buddhists. Again are you attacking other religions to defend Muslims? This thread is about Islam.

    And I'm not blaming the 'non-existing nation' of the Muslims for the action of extremists. Read and re-read what I wrote.

     
    The Webmaster, Jan 11, 2008 IP
  14. ala101

    ala101 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    863
    Likes Received:
    13
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    110
    #94
    its not a must for the majority of the world to find it offensive. But for muslims it is offensive and we hope the world will respect this .. we respect the whole beliefs of the world, so we donnot ask for something that we donnot do .. we are not selfish or dictators .

    and there is a whole sora (chapter) in Quran that declares that :

     
    ala101, Jan 12, 2008 IP
  15. dairyman

    dairyman Notable Member

    Messages:
    7,224
    Likes Received:
    274
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    205
    #95
    Though the wiki mainly consist of user edited contents, they should respect the feeling of other people. Offending others sentiments will in no way benefit any one.
     
    dairyman, Jan 12, 2008 IP
  16. ala101

    ala101 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    863
    Likes Received:
    13
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    110
    #96
    Even though , that does not mean we are allowed to draw him on an image or an illustration.
    we have good precise description of our prophet but we never got any real image of him and he also taught us not to draw him or any prophet.
    wiki should not show offensive materials on the page that should show respected material about our prophet pbuh.
    Because that page should educate the correct info about Mohammad that we muslims believe and islam scholars accept.

    Ok, it seems that there is a point here , you consider this situation as providing educational material ..
    i consider it as providing offensive material ..
    so , you see the difference ?
    and again , wiki is showing that image on a page called "Muhammad" not on a page called "depiction/fake image of Muhammad" so putting that image there is not a good attitude to teach people the correct info about who Mohammad is.
    Thank you !
    it is a public site that when you google it , it shows the 1st result, besides it is an encyclopedia for public people , as they claim : "the free encyclopedia! "
     
    ala101, Jan 12, 2008 IP
  17. ala101

    ala101 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    863
    Likes Received:
    13
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    110
    #97
    Muslims are loyal to their countries, and they have to be loyal to their countries.
    we are an existing nation .
    Islam nation has not to be a country, but we are existed wherever we are. And we have strong relationships between each other (brotherhood)
    so we are loyal to our islam nation and we are loyal to our country and we are loyal to our neighbors, friends..
    I am bound to obey the law of the country, because obeying rules leads to peace, which is the goal of islam , to live in piece.

    My friend, if we understand each other, and respect each other , everybody can live in peace in this world :)
     
    ala101, Jan 12, 2008 IP
  18. ala101

    ala101 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    863
    Likes Received:
    13
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    110
    #98
    may Allah guide you to the straight path
     
    ala101, Jan 12, 2008 IP
  19. northpointaiki

    northpointaiki Guest

    Messages:
    6,876
    Likes Received:
    187
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #99
    Ala, please don't do what you are doing - cutting and pasting a portion of my comments to fit your bill is ridiculous, in my opinion, and not admitting what is actually in print is just dishonest.

    Like this correct info, for the, what, 4th, 5th time?

    Please don't cut and paste to fit your bias. I didn't say:

    I said:

    Just a bit of a difference.

    Again, please don't cut and paste to fit your bias. I didn't say:

    I said:

    Private, as in a private company, and not a religious organization; private, as in, free to do what it wishes, not private, as in secret, hidden from public view.

    I'm done, really. I've tried to understand your point of view, and to speak from a standpoint of reason. I don't think you are being reasonable. You have every right to request a company to do something. You have zero right to demand it.
     
    northpointaiki, Jan 12, 2008 IP
  20. ala101

    ala101 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    863
    Likes Received:
    13
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    110
    #100
    Iam not biased in copying and pasting, i tried to understand ur points and to reply on each of them one by one.

    ok here i reply without quoting from ur reply :
    we are not petitioning on the literal info on wikipedia like the educational words that you quoted which clarify the that in Islam depictions of our prophet are not allowed .
    we are petitioning about that depiction/ illustration so i think its clear ? right ?

    for your points about why such depiction/illustration is not allowed, you can ask any islam scholar from this website for example

    in Islam we donnot accept anything that offend our prophet Mohammad at all .
    and as we consider such an illustration as an offense material , we ask wikipedia politely to delete it and to respect 34,041 signatures till now..

    northpointaiki, thanks for your replies and iam sorry as i misunderstood you.
     
    ala101, Jan 12, 2008 IP