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Why so much hatred toward HTML/CSS noobs?

Discussion in 'HTML & Website Design' started by Gary-SC, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. #1
    I'm relatively new here, but I already noticed that people in this forum get heavily criticized for wanting to make things easier or doing things automatically. Why so much hatred toward those of us who just want to get something done with less effort? I don't understand why developers think it's reasonable to expect that general computer user either learn all the ins and outs of HTML/CSS "the right way" or pay thousands of dollars to hire a professional to do so when most of them just want something published on the Internet for a few people to see.

    To me, it's like saying I should either eat something incredibly healthy or starve and die. McDonald's might not be the best thing to eat, but who cares if I just want something to eat? I wouldn't call it healthy. I wouldn't expect it to be the best meal ever. But it does the job of feeding me. Why can't we do the same with this whole HTML CSS coding thing? Not every one of us needs to do everything at 100% precision. Webflow, Weebly, Pinegrow, Dreamweaver CC, etc. all might have flaws, but they all seem to give us a way to build something useful with less effort. Why is it such a bad thing in ALL cases??
    SEMrush
     
    Gary-SC, Jun 3, 2019 IP
    SEMrush
  2. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #2
    This is because most of what people CALL "easier" isn't. It's more work, not just up front, but in the long haul as well.

    Take bootstrap, which dupes people into using two to five times the markup needed, using presentational classes, and flipping the bird at any visitors to your site with accessibility needs since nobody using it has a firm grasp on semantics. IT's a steaming pile of manure that ANYONE claiming it's somehow "easier' simply doesn't know enough about HTML or CSS to be building websites. It's more to learn, makes you do more work, makes things harder to debug, prevents most people using it from learning how anything actually works so they can't fix anything on their own no matter how routine or mundane, and long term results in either complete failure or a money pit in hosting costs.

    It's not "done with less effort" in most of these cases, and when it IS less work, there's usually reasons it's less work that result in a garbage half-assed website nobody voluntarily wants to visit.

    We see it time and time again, and EVERY BLASTED TIME the past twenty years someone says "no, no, it can be done" they either fade into obscurity (and right out of the industry) in 6 months, or come back having been served some major humble pie when they realize everyone else was right all along.

    HTML is NOT some great bit rocket-science level complexity. It's 4th grade grammar class stuff. A is for anchor. P is for paragraph. EM is for emphasis. The cow says moo. Beep Beep, I'm a sheep.

    ... and the people who get suckered by these ALLEGEDLY easy shortcut invariably end up trying this idiocy for business, and when they cross that line they are shocked it's whipped around and bitten them, but worse by then the confirmation bias has set in, so telling them the dipshit shortcut is the problem they flat out refuse to believe it. They'll assume it's them, they'll assume its their hosting, they'll assume its their content. They'll point the finger at everything except Wordpress, bootcrap, dreamweaver, wix, or whatever other cut-rate dipshit scam they've fallen for. EXACTLY the definition of cognitive dissonance, the same mental failing that makes doomsday cultists stay in the cult and believe it was true even AFTER the date of destruction passes.

    I have NEVER seen a website built with any of this crap that was actually useful to me as a visitor. I know a great many others feel the same... and worse normal non-developer people feel that way all the time but don't know the technical reason that things suck so damned bad.

    In a way, I think it's a different definition of "useful". There's this habit of saying "well it's fine for me" -- that's not your damned job as a web developer. LAh-dee-dah for YOU! If it's pissing off everyone else, what it is for you doesn't huffing matter.

    This is one of the few forums you'll find that doesn't stamp out dissent either. There's a massive problem right now with toxic positivity; this idiotic BS that if "you can't say anything nice". A lame excuse favored by the lazy, the apathetic, and worst of all the sleazy dirtbag predators peddling this schmutz. No, instead these garbage systems create "Echo chambers" of like-minded head-bobbers; "yes men" who agree with what they've already accepted, and refuse or twist any fact that contradicts the idea that their bullshit might in fact have come from the back-end of a cow.

    In the twenty years I've been building websites, I've seen this time and time again. The same mistakes, the same stupidity, repeated time and time again... and instead of staying buried it rises from the ashes to fling it's manure ever further every time. It's why right now we're FAR overdue for a new flavor of bubble-burst in the industry... since to be brutally frank I've seen these trends before. It was 2001...

    Of course, Joe forbid anyone be expected to learn the underlying technologies. NO, that might involve actual work. Worse though, is all these alternatives sitting atop it endlessly and mindlessly spew how much "easier" they are when it's 100% grade A farm fresh BULLSHIT! At least not balanced against the steaming piles that result from bad practices, wasted time, excessive complexity, and the general incompetence of those who created these systems in the first place.

    But no, the masses as a whole fall for those same seven techniques every blasted. time. Bandwagon, transfer, plain folks, glittering generalities, name calling, card stacking, and testimonial. In the face of that, facts have no chance.

    ... and I don't mean the coarse name calling I used here, no. True propaganda name calling is so subtle and well crafted, someone not trained to see it never does.

    IF we're harsh with you it's tough love, we don't want to see you repeat the mistakes that everyone has made at the start the past two and a half DECADES. In the end though, it's your call. Sometimes you just can't save someone from failure. As the saying goes, those who only ever succeed learn nothing.
     
    deathshadow, Jun 4, 2019 IP
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  3. Karen May Jones

    Karen May Jones Prominent Member

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    #3
    HaHa,,,,, that's like asking directions to the nearest mcD's and getting a lot of hate on why you would even want to know where it is. Yeah, people could be more diplomatic in their suggestions, but I think they have realized what a mess some scripts are - and that's just their experience shining through.
    Go ahead and ask your questions and consider the answers, don't take it personal. It is not aimed at you, it is aimed at the developers who have gotten out of hand with their control over the world. I have been pissed off at wordpress dozens of times, but I am not smart enough to take another route. I should have learned some more stuff. It took me two years to learn html, and I can hack around in css, but I hate that css is even used/needed to make everything look the same. haha. I'm a real dipshit sometimes. :O
     
    Karen May Jones, Jun 4, 2019 IP
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  4. Spoiltdiva

    Spoiltdiva Prominent Member

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    #4
    ^^^Good advice with a strong element of truth to it.;)
     
    Spoiltdiva, Jun 4, 2019 IP
  5. malky66

    malky66 Acclaimed Member

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    #5
    What exactly are you expecting when you post in a public forum asking for coding advice, do you want good advice on how to do things properly or do you just want your ego stroked and people to tell you what you're doing is great?

    I've read the threads you've posted since you signed up and you've been given some fantastic advice, all for free and all you do is winge and moan about it all because you don't like the way the advice is given, toughen up snowflake or maybe this forum just isn't for you.

    @deathshadow is one of the most knowledgeable members here when it comes to coding and he puts a shitload of effort into his replies to help noobs like you and all he gets is criticism, I honestly don't know why he bothers.
     
    malky66, Jun 4, 2019 IP
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  6. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #6
    @deathshadow
    Ok. So you are saying these things out of significant concerns about the state of things. I keep asking questions, even if people end up criticizing me for doing so because I don't want just to swallow and believe without examining assertions. That said, I tend to think that there are good reasons some people have strong opinions about something, especially if they make sense logically. I said this in another thread you replied, but I'm going to do some homework now and see if I can see your point.

    @malky66
    Get off my back. You got me all wrong. Are you seriously expecting me to swallow and BLINDLY BELIEVE what people tell me in this forum?? I ask questions and counter-question, even if they are whiny complaints to you, to see if I can see other points of view, and find out what sort of answers people might have that I haven't considered. Toughen up, SNOWFLAKE, and learn to tolerate DUMBARSE NOOBS like ME. ;)
     
    Gary-SC, Jun 4, 2019 IP
  7. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #7
    you think it's ok to have strong opinions about things that make sense? great!

    You just created a thread whining that we weren't nice enough!

    I've read through your threads over the last few days and, while I don't agree with everything in every reply, people have taken a good amount of time to reply thoughtfully. This is an internet marketing forum. The folk here are trying to earn an income, or supplement their income. Their programming expertise is usually secondary but it is a place where we can discuss stuff, unlike stackoverflow which is very problem driven. I'd love to see your account there!
     
    sarahk, Jun 4, 2019 IP
  8. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #8
    No, I created a thread demanding the answer to why developers out there, not just the ones here, think it's a crime not to know HTML/CSS intimately enough from the get-go. In general, I'm just asking questions, and I often get this "Are you too dumb to buy into (whatever the tool/approach they disagree with)??? Sod off already." At least, they all give me that tone whenever they answer questions without backing up their claim with reasoning.

    Look, I'm just a dumb noob trying to figure this out. Coding is mind-boggling for me, at least for now, I hope. I've never heard of things like the CSS box model, responsive design, etc. until just a couple of weeks ago. I came here in desperation because one guy says I should learn Bootstrap, and another guy says I don't need jQuery, then yet another guy says that's bullshit. How the hell am I supposed to know anything then?? And I ask stuff here, and I get this "Stop whining and complaining" bullshit. Well, help me understand my frustration then instead of dissing me for "whining." Explain why I am wrong in expecting that everything should be easy. That's the only way of thinking I know, so if someone tells me I shouldn't want that, I want some explanations why I should reconsider. I'm just frustrated. I wanna know. That's why I am asking!!!!! I repeat; I am a dumbarse noob who don't know jack shit. Why is that a crime?? Weren't you where I am at some point in your life??

    And yeah, I agree some people are incredible here. I would say @deathshadow has been quite impressive. Honestly, I don't care for his demeanor, but the difference is that he backs himself up really well with all those examples. He does so well enough for me to make me want to do more homework. Thank him for that for sure.
     
    Gary-SC, Jun 4, 2019 IP
  9. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #9
    ... and that's a GOOD thing, Don't let anyone tell you otherwise -- even me. Rely on the facts, as presented. As I say time and time again, SMART people ask questions when they don't know something, and critically analyze any data they get that conflicts with that of others. Never call yourself a dumbass if you're asking questions instead of blindly believing everything you are told.

    But big tip, MOST of the time, if an "industry" is saying one thing with complete unanimity, there's something wrong... possibly even sleazy... about what's being said. Remember, most people will do anything to make a buck... There's nothing wrong with that per-se, but it can lead to outright psychopathic behavior. There's a reason predators with no remorse tend to thrive under capitalism.

    ... and it's ok to disagree. That's how things get better. You think you can come up with a better way, I'd love to see it. That's not a platitude, I really mean that.

    There's a ... reek of "toxic positivity" being promoted in the industry right now used for one true purpose, promoting scams and hiding the ignorance and/or incompetence of those "in charge" of where things are headed and how they are done. It trains people to automatically assume every criticism is an attack, and it's a trap it is far, FAR too easy for all of us to fall into. See, well...

    @Malky, dude, even I've got to say that was taking it a bit too far. Attack the work and those promoting bad practices; NOT the one asking why. He's asking why, this is a good thing. Couch your responses in that light. The facts can seem harsh enough under the light of reality and reason, without taking that extra step over the line. That I'm the one saying that... take that to heart.

    But that too is the reaction most people have to conflict, and why even if I word what I'm saying polite enough for an afternoon tea-party with my grandmother's octogenarian friends, it is not uncommon to still have people act like I took a dump in their cornflakes, spewing enough profanity that truckers are a roadside diner would say "hey, watch your mouth! There are mechanics in here."

    I mean, I've actually been banned from a forum -- recently -- for posting this -- word for word -- when someone asked for a site review.

    That such a post would be considered a ban-worthy offense should scare EVERYBODY. If it doesn't, then I guess the world has succeeded in making the majority nothing more than unquestioning drones. There is no profanity, it attacks the work and not the person, and it's STILL automatically "too confrontational" and even called "not helpful". That was the post that "threw it over the line" and "You're banned for life".

    That is why at places like DigitalPoint or CodingForums you'll find people that are brimming with nothing nice to say about the industry as a whole when you poke your head into areas about coding. Large swaths of this industry live in a bubble, with places like Sitepoint, Hashnode, etc, etc, having made themselves into nothing more than dens of suck-ups and sycophants. ANY actual criticism is automatically an attack, no matter how you word it, with a reaction from users and moderators more akin to a religious fundamentalist who has their nonsensical fairy tales challenged by science.
     
    deathshadow, Jun 4, 2019 IP
  10. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #10
    upload_2019-6-5_17-46-12.png
    If programming was "easy" everyone would be doing it. Is there anything at all that is actually easy? Everything I do has involved learning how to do it well, what to avoid, learning new skills. That covers everything from driving a car to parenting to work.

    Find me any profession that doesn't have enthusiastic amateurs and people willing to profit from them (Wordpress.com, Wix, Weebly).
    Then look at the professionals - their tools are often hard to use, have a steep learning curve but the output is clearly better.

    It doesn't matter if you're talking about DIY Will kits versus real lawyers, car maintenance, fine dining, or coding. If you're happy to slap something together, that's cool, but if you pay for it to be done right then you expect a quality job. In this field understanding the compromises made when using third-party libraries is important. Some will still choose to use them for a particular project and others won't. It's up to you to decide who is right and who is wrong. Part of that process is experimentation. Create a site using various different techniques, assess what worked, and what didn't. Read the source, is it clean? does it validate? Look at the coding practices. Is something done in a particular way because it was the best the programmer could do? because they were in a hurry? or because it really is the right way? The learning curve for programming is steep and getting steeper. We're lucky, you can find all the information online for free. No having to go to tech bookshops and pay hundreds of dollars for hefty manuals as @deathshadow and I would have done when we were starting out. But some of that free information isn't great. So you have to read lots, experiment lots, and decide what really is good and what isn't.
     
    sarahk, Jun 4, 2019 IP
  11. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #11
    Maybe not to a point where we don't need to learn anything at all, but I do believe there are ways to make things a little easIER, and that's what I'm trying to figure out so I won't waste my time and energy doing things inefficiently. There might or might not be a way to get there quicker with less effort, but if there are ways to do things better and EASIER, I'm all for it. I see developers always talking about what plugins might speed up and automate the coding process, and which tools can help them become more efficient and productive. In other words, they are looking for a way to ease the pain and go faster. Isn't IDE, insisting on emac, vi, or whatever fancies them coming out of their desire to make it a little easier to do things? Why do they get to do that without getting yelled at when noobs like me get pounded down for wanting to find a quicker and more efficient way? I don't know if GUI editors are really that at this point after reading the stuff @deathshadow posted. Still, why asking for it is bad? I'm not trying to blindly dismiss seasoned developers and what the knowledge they have gained over the years. I'm trying to find out WHY they do what they do and WHY they think it remains true to them. It's just that I've met too many old people who would tell me some things are right simply because they are older and they have more experiences than young people. It doesn't automatically mean they are right.

    So, sure, I will buckle up and learn to code all the way if that gives me the best result most effectively and efficiently. But if there are tools I could use to lessen that in half to get the same effect, why not? That said, so far, @deathshadow posts have given me reasons to stop and re-evaluate the claim those tool builders make about their efficiency and productivity. I'm gonna look further into this and experiment.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
    Gary-SC, Jun 4, 2019 IP
  12. qwikad.com

    qwikad.com Illustrious Member Affiliate Manager

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    #12
    oh-boy-another-immortal-ragevoltronforce-flame-war.jpg
     
    qwikad.com, Jun 5, 2019 IP
  13. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #13
    That's actually what we all do, and that's what makes these ones that are blatant lies about being "easier" or "simpler" so annoying. The talk the talk but don't even come close to walking the walk. "Frameworks" in particular -- jQuery, Bootstrap, W3.css, mootools, react, vue, etc -- endlessly run their mouths about how much 'easier' or 'simpler' they are, and how they 'speed up development, when after four decades of programming the only thing they do for me is leave me asking "HOW? HOW are they any of those things?!?"

    As to be brutally frank, they're not. The people who think they are simply never learned enough about the underlying languages to realize it.

    Generally the longer you do this, the less "automation" helps you. Any "developers" bragging about such tools are likely poseurs who're deluding themselves -- and by extension others -- over how "skilled" they are. I have equally if not greater unkind words for a LOT of such nonsense... fancy editor BS, "pre-processor" idiocy like LESS and SASS... 90% of the time those finding such stuff advantageous are -- as I've now seen me say many times -- using two to ten times the code needed to do the job.

    ... and with some things fancy editors do -- autocompletion, folding, mode based editing -- I find myself literally screaming at the display "Oh for f*** sake, just let me type in the code!". This only gets worse the more complex the tools, as the constant dicking around with the mouse or obscure keyboard commands just slows you down. What's easier, dicking around in a WYSIWYG trying to make a piece of text be a proper structural depth heading, or typing in <h2></h2> around it?

    Those who see merits in such tools/extensions/what-have-you are generally unqualified to write a single line of HTML or CSS, resulting in their opinion on if the "tools" that are "helping" them have about as much weight and truth to it as a tweet by an addle-minded obtuse orange orangutan. The more you learn about using the underlying languages the less and less attractive all that other stuff becomes.

    ... and it's part of why the people say "oh HTML is so easy" and "well the markup really doesn't matter" are being painfully short-sighted. You'll even hear people say "HTML isn't a real programming language". BULLCOOKIES. It's a set of instructions for a computer to turn data into something for the end user. If there's another definition of a program, I've never heard it. MAYBE if people took HTML seriously, we wouldn't have any of these issues where it is a weeks work to figure out how to make the simplest of changes because some know-nothing twaddle using bootcrap is using 100k of markup to deliver 5k of plaintext and a dozen content images. (around 10k's job in most cases).

    Older doesn't mean wiser, and everyone has different experiences in their life. You have to look at what's being said, not why or by who. I actually agree with that 100%. Look at the points being made. It's one thing to say something, but can they back it up with actual examples?

    It's part of why the TLDR twitter generation pisses me off so much, running around screaming "aah, wall of text". JOE FORBID anyone actually express themselves or make rational arguments filled with facts. The literacy rate may be at an all-time high, but I swear the quality is in the toilet. But then I remember 20 years ago when most forum users were bitching that 32k was too small a size limit for a post. Now you give people 288 characters and they act like their cup doth runneth over.
     
    deathshadow, Jun 5, 2019 IP
  14. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #14
    @deathshadow

    Would you say the same thing about productivity tools like snippet managers and note-taking apps? I've come across some articles and videos talking about Boostnote (https://boostnote.io/) which supposedly helps to maintain code snippets and taking notes while learning to code. Thinking about trying, but I am also a bit confused about how it's different from keeping files and folders. I thought of Evernote and OneNote, but I've heard that it's hard to get data out of note apps in general because of proprietary database those apps use. What do you do to keep notes and snippets?
     
    Gary-SC, Jun 5, 2019 IP
  15. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #15
    You just hit it on the head. If you have good organizational skills, note-taking skills, etc, etc, you shouldn't need some crapplet to maintain that stuff for you. I mean, you're already in a perfectly good editor, in a OS that lets you have multiple files open at once, that can deep search into text files from the file manager... Why not save your notes as text files alongside your work using the same tools you program with?!?

    Hence, I keep my notes and snippets in well named .txt files organized into well named well organized folders, from the EXACT SAME EDITOR I code with: Flo's Notepad 2

    ... and I use that editor for EVERYTHING I program, from RCA1802 machine language I'm going to hand assemble, to the x86 machine language, Pascal, and C I do for fun retro-projects, to my C++ code for Teensy/Arduiono coding, to the HTML/CSS/JS/PHP/mariaDB/ASP I program for paying clients.

    Which is an aspect of fancy editors that also gets in the way. Simple clean basic editors can be used for nearly anything. Complex editors are usually only good for one thing, and do a poor job of even that. There is a LOT to be said for having one clean simple basic tool you can use to write any code you want without the editor itself getting in the damned way.

    In the end code is plaintext. Flat ordinary plaintext. Notes are plaintext. Flat, ordinary, plaintext. Content of value on the web is plaintext. Flat, ordinary plaintext.

    So just get something ONE step up from Notepad and be done with it. Any DECENT notepad replacement / programmers editor will do the job. Flo's Notepad 2, EditPlus, notepad++, win32pad (well, that's aging badly), sublime (I dislike it personally, but there's nothing wrong with it for beginners), visual studio code (not to be confused with visual studio, it's a bit fat around the waist since it's a web crapplet made in electron, but again nothing "wrong" with it from a writing code standpoing)...

    I'll stack any of those against a WYSIWYG or more complex editor when it comes to ACTUAL productivity any day all day. The most powerful tool you have is between your ears. The more you rely on automation the less you're using the most powerful tool in the box. This is why I consider things like autocompletion, and the illegible acid-trip that is colour syntax highlighting, and so forth to be more hindrance than help.
     
    deathshadow, Jun 5, 2019 IP
  16. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #16
    That's EXACTLY what I did after spending many agonizing hours trying to use Webflow over the past few days. Someone must throw that $hit out the window.

    Now I get why experienced devs are harsh toward those "noob-helper" tools. It's NOT hatred toward noobs themselves. Experienced devs who know their stuff can't stand those startup companies ripping off noobs and selling snake oils. Yeah, I call Webflow THAT after those agonizing hours!!
     
    Gary-SC, Jun 9, 2019 IP
  17. mmerlinn

    mmerlinn Notable Member

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    #17
    One of the things you will learn is that you will make and design your own tools to accomplish your objectives and make your coding experience easier.

    For example, I primarily code in FoxPro to manage my database and to automatically generate my webpages (quite ugly and very old school, but do exactly what I need them to do).

    I hate the debugging tools available FoxPro, so I wrote my own tools which I have been using for nigh on to 20 years.

    Further, every time I see myself writing and debugging the same code over and over, I write another "tool" (function, procedure, subroutine, or what ever you want to call it) to automatically write the code for me knowing that since it is already totally debugged, I can use it and not need to debug the same code over and over again. In over 20 years of programming in FP, I have a library of dozens, maybe hundreds, of shortcuts that I use whenever needed.

    Even as recently as last week I wrote another shortcut eliminating 3 lines of code that I had already written and debugged over 20 times in one program. Now I just plug in a 10-character jump to the shortcut and no longer need to worry about typos etc.
     
    mmerlinn, Jun 9, 2019 IP
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  18. Gary-SC

    Gary-SC Greenhorn

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    #18
    Interesting. I suspect it also fits your needs far more precisely than any third-party "tools" ever will be able to do. And, I also find it interesting that it is still in the coding realm, not trying to substitute with drag & drop.
     
    Gary-SC, Jun 10, 2019 IP
  19. kk5st

    kk5st Prominent Member

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    #19
    I haven't thought of FoxPro in ages. I had it back in the late eighties/early nineties on my 286 with a whopping 2.5MB of memory and a laughable HD. A software sales rep (who sold FoxPro among other lines) suggested Borland's Paradox would be a better choice for my purposes, and no, she didn't handle Borland's products. The next week, she gave me her copies of Paradox and Quattro Pro. Nice. The Paradox report generator, I thought was much easier to use (for me, anyway).

    g
     
    kk5st, Jun 10, 2019 IP
  20. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #20
    I spent around six years building custom databases in Paradox 3 and 4 for DOS, mostly for double-entry accounting on Novell Netware 3 networks. Amazingly the system I wrote specifically for mortuaries (long story) is still in use today. It's easier for those clients who were happy with it on 286 and 386 class systems to just run it under DOSBox, than it is to pay for someone to create a new version. It's more than fast enough, does everything needed, and is in fact so much leaner than modern implementations even under virtualization/emulation it's better than many modern alternatives when it comes to something as piss simple as accounting.

    DOSBox, it's not just for games.
     
    deathshadow, Jun 10, 2019 IP