1. Advertising
    y u no do it?

    Advertising (learn more)

    Advertise virtually anything here, with CPM banner ads, CPM email ads and CPC contextual links. You can target relevant areas of the site and show ads based on geographical location of the user if you wish.

    Starts at just $1 per CPM or $0.10 per CPC.

Why is it always "CHEAP ARTICLE WRITER"

Discussion in 'Copywriting' started by phyza, Apr 13, 2009.

  1. Y.L. Prinzel

    Y.L. Prinzel Peon

    Messages:
    412
    Likes Received:
    27
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #81
    Shhh...don't tell anyone else, but there really is an underground market and the buyers don't go by post count. I got my first interested buyer PM when I was at about 100 posts. He wanted something outside of my area of expertise (way, way outside) but liked my style of writing. He is still a loyal client (no, that's not right because after everything we've worked on together, our relationship transcends writer/client) and has referred many friends to me.
    SEMrush
    In addition to him, there have been several others. All those that I chose to work with have been phenomenal, long-term clients. We have great working relationships and it's nothing like what people encounter in BST.

    I can't tell you what I did or didn't do to make it happen, and I didn't even mean for it to happen. I do post occasionally in other areas of DP, but I really don't know how any of the direct underground folks found me.

    Just give it time and, like Jenn says, choose a niche. I was on the fence about dedicating myself to finance--although I'm a frickin' stockbroker and insurance agent for goodness' sake, I just really thought I wanted the variety of a generalist. After reading Jenn's e-book I gave in and focused on the finance. It wasn't until then that other doors started to open that showed me how to get variety and even work humor into finance writing.
     
    Y.L. Prinzel, Apr 18, 2009 IP
    SEMrush
  2. jhmattern

    jhmattern Illustrious Member

    Messages:
    8,909
    Likes Received:
    794
    Best Answers:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    455
    #82
    I pulled in far more work from DP when I was new than I do now (because now I've built a much stronger platform elsewhere with my own sites, blogs, and products). It's not about post count. I saw an opportunity that was under-pursued here (press release writing). I had expertise in the area (I have a degree in PR and was running a PR firm at the time). So I posted in a way to educate the market (just posting around the copywriting and content creation sections isn't enough). Basically, I saw an opportunity, built my authority status in just a few months here, and did everything I could to help grow that particular market here (which is now booming, and which quite a lot of other writers have gone on to profit from - hell, I know several making a living at it after learning from the free e-book I wrote on the subject! - just goes back to building authority).

    That was one small example. There are quite a lot of untapped markets here just waiting for a real authority source to come in and write some thoughtful and educational posts. It's the same concept used in white paper writing - you educate first; sell later. And it's extremely effective. While I'm certainly not going to hand over every untapped market I see here, I'll give you one example because I don't compete in it - sales letters. A lot of webmasters want sales letters. A lot of others could really use a professional one, but they're clueless about it so their existing sales pages are crap. Yet no one here is really specializing in that beyond a few cheap writers whose work that I've seen is mediocre at best. I don't buy that not a single copywriter here is capable of becoming the authority in that niche on this forum. Writers here are just awful at marketing themselves for the most part - they don't know how to look for those opportunities, so they don't pursue them. Instead they ask the same questions over and over, looking for someone else to hand them the magic method of earning real money with their writing skills.

    Even new writers have the ability to break into the underground market here quickly. New writers often assume that those of us who have been around a while have forgotten what it's like. Believe me.... When we listen to the whining about it day in and day out, we have no chance to forget. That's why people like Y.L., Anne, myself, and others here have devoted so much time to helping those who are truly willing to help themselves. We do remember, and we're now paying the writing community back for the help we were given throughout our careers. Had we forgotten, we'd be spending that extra time on more profitable endeavors - not that we don't make plenty of time for that - and telling everyone else to get out of our hair (which is damned tempting sometimes).

     
    jhmattern, Apr 18, 2009 IP
  3. BadBoyzStudioZ

    BadBoyzStudioZ Peon

    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    25
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #83
    I wouldn't doubt that one single bit.

    The soapbox queen that I am, I have preached the principle of the "Good 'ol Boy" system on many levels. There is nothing odd or unusual about it. There is nothing wrong with it either, it is the way the world has turned from day one. If you are even giving the illusion of being one of "them", regardless of your true sentiment, then you are golden. Defy that system or deny the system the respect it demands and you are out. Period.

    The one thing that can save you is the "First Impression" theory. I do not take first impressions as the Alpha and Omega that many do, I used to be the master of the mask. What was behind the mask in those times was... Not much. But, the first impression I made saved my booty. Almost every time!

    I love this silly little forum. Let me tell you why.

    I have been banned, ejected, attacked and ridiculed for my passionate exuberance on more forums that you can count or may have ever been to yourself. I am not exaggerating, this is a fact I can prove. I heard a lot of really bad tales about DP from people regarding the moderators here. In fact, at these other forums, it is the moderators that usually attacked me. I am not pretending that I did not get belligerent after the fact, but it was the case in 99% of these instances that I was prematurely assaulted without dignity on a public venue by the person in charge of keeping that from happening.

    I was here about two days. I posted a passionate thread on a forum about my personal experience with woman and why they are superior business partners to any man I knew as a career Marine or anywhere else. Insecure males went ballistic! A heated diatribe ensued, by yours truly. A mod, came to me in a PM and with great dignity and respect showed me what to do. He did not threaten me, he did not warn me, he suggested that I take a break when I am mad and post later. Class act! That is why I respect this forum more than any other.

    I like the system, I like the winners here. I want to stick with the winners! My belief system is always subject to change based upon discovery of more information. So thank you, I understand and will keep my eyes open and my mind as well.

    (Jhmattern Girl... You are fast! Wow. I burped, you banged out a novella. You rock! Yes, this is good.)

    I read your truth and I am now saved! Do I hear an Amen?

    You are bright. You are describing (Aaron is my name) as if you have known me forever. I know what my passion is, I have been doing it for 30 years. What I have is a gift. I am embarrassed to tell you that I have the equivalent of a fourth grade education, but it is true. If I can be frank (I would be... No, Aaron is a good guy) I can tell you I was a drug addict at the age of 12, so school is a blur. I am 13 years sober today, but I feared the concept of college. I am bipolar, so my attention span was not up to par way back when. I overcame. I had help, yes. But here I am. 4th grade education and with exception of a few punctuation errors on the fly (I correct EVERYTHING before an editor hits me), I believe that many would never know the truth.

    If I said that I would not partake of the opportunity when that door opened, I would be lying. The person I would be lying to is myself! I do not lie to me. I will lie to you, a judge, a jury, maybe even the Almighty, but I know that to me the truth is evident. If at some juncture a person saw in me what I see in myself, I would be a fool to not grant them the opportunity to reap what I can sow in their life. We have that power; to change lives! Yes we do.
     
    BadBoyzStudioZ, Apr 18, 2009 IP
    jhmattern likes this.
  4. jhmattern

    jhmattern Illustrious Member

    Messages:
    8,909
    Likes Received:
    794
    Best Answers:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    455
    #84
    Glad you've been treated well so far. Just make sure you're familiar with the rules (read all the sticky threads for rules regarding specific areas and this nice little list). We're very quick to ban for certain violations (like thread bumpers abusing the marketplace - they get a week's timeout). We're actually known as a very "ban-happy" forum, so it sounds like you're doing good so far. lol Then again, I'd say we're pretty lenient about general chat as long as things don't get so heated that people are being abusive (like occasional issues in the politics & religion forum - never go in there if you've got a headache or PMS... that's my rule at least lol). Hope you have continued luck and provocative posts. It's always good to make people think. :)
     
    jhmattern, Apr 18, 2009 IP
  5. BadBoyzStudioZ

    BadBoyzStudioZ Peon

    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    25
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #85
    Check this out... I didn't even notice that you are a Mod. Didn't care. I looked at your writing not your title. I barely gave much thought to the post amount thing, but it is kind of out there. I have worked with presidents and people living in cardboard boxes. I rarely classify an individual based on their appearance or temporary assignment here on Earth. What is in their heart, that is what matters.

    Let me toot a horn here. People all around me in this situation were getting banned. The thread was closed. I was doing nothing wrong. Any person who actually read what I posted would see that I did nothing personal to anyone. I stated my belief and backed it up with my experience on the subject. Like this thread here... Tell me, how many people actually read this stuff? Not as many as we would hope or believe. The right ones will, the average forum squatter is not interested in this stuff. It is always about what THEY can get, not what THEY can contribute.

    You two beautiful creations of Womankind gave me a gift today! I will return the favor very soon, yes I will.

    (That is my picture in the avatar, by the way. Do you like my new nose job? Beverly Hills doctor did it!)
     
    BadBoyzStudioZ, Apr 18, 2009 IP
  6. jhmattern

    jhmattern Illustrious Member

    Messages:
    8,909
    Likes Received:
    794
    Best Answers:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    455
    #86
    I agree - it's the best way to go. I used to work in music PR - an industry where you're expected to treat certain artists, venue owners, bigger stations, etc. "better" than the lowly unsigned. I didn't work that way. While it didn't appeal to a few in the process, I found that most respected me more for it (of the so-called "higher-ups"). I've found the same true in the people I work with as a writer, from large international corporations to a kid launching a project to try to help his family out. I don't see anyone as deserving special treatment. I'm a very tough love type. I'll speak my mind whether someone likes it or not, no matter who they are. It's served me very well in business. Two eyes, one nose, ten fingers, ten toes... they're all the same to me. I can't even imagine letting people's titles, ties, or names get to me in my work. I'd go mad.

    And that's something writers wanting to earn more should keep in mind. Those clients willing to pay professional rates expect you to provide professional services. As a writer, that often involves more than simply writing (if you're a copywriter for example, you'll likely be serving in a sort of marketing consulting role--evaluating their target market and existing copy, and advising them on changes). Those higher level roles are not necessarily for the "yes men" types. You have to be willing to give the hard information that clients don't want to hear sometimes, no matter who they are. It can be intimidating early on, but the ability to communicate equally with a lowly assistant and a CEO of a Fortune 500 company is a skill worth learning. Equal respect. Equal honesty. (Unless you're content being a yes man that is.)
     
    jhmattern, Apr 18, 2009 IP
  7. Brennan

    Brennan Notable Member

    Messages:
    3,318
    Likes Received:
    198
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    240
    #87
    It's because 99% of people on DP are looking for "cheap" services (DP is famous for cheap finds), if people want to pay more then they will go elsewhere.

    Regarding cheap content, if people just want content to show Google they have a lot of content not to show readers that they have sophisticated and quality content then they will use a cheaper writer and also some of the "Cheap" writers actually provide very high quality content and they have just a low demand so they are lowering their prices for a special promotion although you also do get some writers for $0.01 a word and write "hi, pm me i do it 4 u" lol.
     
    Brennan, Apr 18, 2009 IP
    Will.Spencer and phyza like this.
  8. BadBoyzStudioZ

    BadBoyzStudioZ Peon

    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    25
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #88
    I like you more and more every minute! I have been in the music business for 30 years, still am. Last year I was managing a label artist with a five record deal at the same time helping a kid get his MySpace on. The label paid me 1000 per week plus 200 per for their MySpace design and population. The kid? Paid me with gratitude. I still actually respect the kid.

    Can you go see my work sometime please? http://yourockradio.com and the new two month old Myspace property at http://www.myspace.com/yourockradiodotcom I think you will like the whole package, I really do!

    Then I want to hire you. I know you are not "cheap", but I will get you the money you need. We can talk. OK? I need your help. Thanks
     
    BadBoyzStudioZ, Apr 18, 2009 IP
  9. F.R.W.

    F.R.W. Guest

    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    0
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #89
    See
    ms to be a reoccurring theme on DP. Somehow, people are selling articles for $.50 per article. Given the amount of time you have to spend on writing even a halfway decent article, you could get paid more money to work at a burger joint at those wages.
     
    F.R.W., Apr 18, 2009 IP
  10. BadBoyzStudioZ

    BadBoyzStudioZ Peon

    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    25
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #90
    But can you work at a burger joint from the comfort of your bedroom? That is the compromise factor. Have you ever read some of those 50 cent articles? Yeah... Not good.
     
    BadBoyzStudioZ, Apr 18, 2009 IP
  11. chant

    chant Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,708
    Likes Received:
    64
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    140
    #91
    With respect to Jenn and Y.L. (and Jenn knows me a little from hanging around in the forums for years, so she knows that I value and respect her opinion), I still feel that the decent paying jobs on Digital Point and few and far between. They certainly aren't advertised in the content creation forum.

    For all I know Jenn and Y.L. may be correct and there is an underground market here, but my personal experience suggests that if one exists, it takes far too much effort to get a sufficient return for your hard work.

    At the risk of sounding like a braggart I know that I'm a great writer. I've got years of experience with both print and online employers. When I first arrived at DP I landed three jobs within the first two months. I charged 2 cents a word to try and build up a positive reputation in this marketplace. I learned within the first two weeks that I was ripping myself off. After completing the work for one employer I raised my rates and never heard back from him. The other two employers were good people and one even increased their pay to me three times. Still, I would say that I came in on the tail end of decent paying jobs advertised publically in the DP forums. The rates have only gotten lower, the demands of the employers higher and the quality of the writing seems to have also deteriorated.

    I believe that post after post of content employers looking for sky high qualifications from prospective writers and paying less than a cent per word has created an atmosphere that shines poorly on Digital Point. The bad pay rates, the tremendous demands placed on writers to compete for pennies, the venom spewed by some of these "employers" when you point out that their call for writers is severely one-sided...all of this has only gotten worse on here. While I realize that Jenn does a tremendous job moderating here, she does not get involved in the ebb and flow of the marketplace. I can understand her position, however, as a place where a neophyte writer comes to seeking freelance work, Digital Point leave a lot to be desired. And like it or not, page after page of poor paying writing jobs does create an atmosphere for how this site is viewed by the next round of employers and freelancers.

    My advice to new writers is to not bother putting a lot of time into trying to find the good paying jobs on Digital Point. Why bother when there are better opportunities out there? If a writer were to ask me how to best spend their next ten hours trying to find good paying writing assignments I certainly wouldn't recommend taking any of the low paying jobs in the content creation forum. I'd tell them to spend that 10 hours doing some solid research on the internet looking for where other freelance writing jobs are being offered, with good pay rates, and go chase after them. Let the aspiring "business" entrepreneurs squeezing blood from a writer's hard work stay on here and take up the time of the writers that don't value their work.
     
    chant, Apr 18, 2009 IP
    phyza likes this.
  12. jhmattern

    jhmattern Illustrious Member

    Messages:
    8,909
    Likes Received:
    794
    Best Answers:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    455
    #92
    I think that's the key to our differences. You mention "trying to find" the higher paying jobs, but that isn't how you get people to hire you here at $100+ per article. It's just about networking. You spend your time just talking to people about what you know, within your specialty area. You don't blatantly look for jobs or pitch yourself. Say a few intelligent things in front of the right audience, and they start contacting you instead of the other way around. As Y.L. pointed out in another post, it doesn't take many before the referral business starts picking up.

    I know it's sometimes tough for people not at that position yet to understand it, but once you're there you'd never look back. I haven't had to query or "apply" for any kind of work in about two years--since focusing on networking and building a platform. It didn't take long to start. DP may simply not be the right networking environment for you and what you're offering, but it can be for many others. Try the same thing at other forums / communities, and see what happens there. But remember, it won't happen if you have an empty sig like you do now (so I'm not surprised you've had a hard time breaking into the underground markets here). The higher paying clients don't generally waste time contacting writers just to get the basics--they want to know your details first, and then they contact you ready to hire.
     
    jhmattern, Apr 19, 2009 IP
  13. Y.L. Prinzel

    Y.L. Prinzel Peon

    Messages:
    412
    Likes Received:
    27
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #93
    I can't stress enough how important networking is. Being someone people want to work with is so much more valuable than looking good on paper. 75% of my work comes from editors I've made friends with, people I've networked with on forums or in person and referrals. Another 20% is from a source I would not have even heard of if it weren't for an editor I became friends with. Seriously, become known and network and it should work. I'm not going to say it will work because...well...I'm not psychic.

    Spread yourself out--Twitter, LinkedIn, forums within your specialty, other webmaster forums, etc. It takes a while--I only began freelancing 11 months ago and had no clue what I was doing. I started to see a big difference in my work flow this year because, at the tail end of last year, I started to change my approach to finding work. As a matter of fact, I kind of stopped looking. I decided that I wanted this career to work, but only on my own terms. Those terms were that I didn't want to spend every day searching for work and begging for jobs. I had a perfectly great career already (although I wasn't happy with the corporate world) and it wasn't like I had anything to lose if freelancing didn't work.

    Of course, freelancing did work and now it is my only source of income. I have been writing for companies for a long while, but as far as internet writing, I was totally new.

    The point here is, it can work--but you have to be willing to change your thinking. I get a sense (and I could be wrong) of entitlement in some of these posts. The truth of the matter is, no matter how well you write or how experienced you are, you are not entitled to anything. No one is. Being open to change, staying hopeful, and looking at everything as an opportunity to learn and improve will take you a lot farther than complaining about this board--this overall insignificant single place in the world of the 'net.
     
    Y.L. Prinzel, Apr 19, 2009 IP
  14. Sn00py

    Sn00py Peon

    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    1
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #94
    This is more and more true for all kinds of jobs. If you have a high social intelligence, you'll get bigger and better jobs that more qualified people never will. I think it was Jhmattern that noted in her blog that the best writer in the world will barely scrape by if he can't network, while someone merely competent can make a killing if they know how to advertise themselves.

    You only started 11 months ago, YL? Wow! Hard to tell from how you present yourself. Kudos. Great example to debunk the previous posts in this thread that say you need any kind of long-standing career to stand on.

    You only started networking at the tail end of last year? What did you do until then? The endless query train?

    There's another huge benefit to networking. Riding the endless query train is a huge energy drain. But when you network, even if you don't get a job out of the contact, you often have fantastic interactions and develop quality friendships, business or otherwise, that WILL lead to future work.

    This was one of the biggest revelations for me. Even if you have the same results, you'll have a lot more fun networking than sending out a bunch of resumes. Besides, I'd challenge anyone worth their salt to try out networking and not receive more jobs at better rates.

    I think you are right about the sense of entitlement. It's a pitfall of many people, especially those with high intelligence and competence. They think they should be rewarded based off their ability and accomplishments, but we're often rewarded more for our ability to advertise ourselves and connect with people.

    Slate.com had a great article last month on why this pitfall prevents smart people from getting dates.
     
    Sn00py, Apr 19, 2009 IP
  15. Y.L. Prinzel

    Y.L. Prinzel Peon

    Messages:
    412
    Likes Received:
    27
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #95
    Yes. Craigslist was great--got a good gig with a local paper. Did some work with content sites like Demand and Textbroker and tried Helium, Associated Content, etc. I was completely lost. Honestly, if it weren't for one of the writers at The Freelance-Zone taking me under his wing, my path would have been a lot bumpier. Which really is ironic. I've been successful running other people's businesses for years...but when it came to my own I never even thought to apply the same principals.
     
    Y.L. Prinzel, Apr 19, 2009 IP
  16. chant

    chant Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,708
    Likes Received:
    64
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    140
    #96
    The difference I'm stressing is that I wouldn't put any time into marketing oneself on DP if you're looking for any job that pays above slave wages. Again, my experience is that the return on the effort put in is as close to zero. I would also include networking on DP. I haven't had one job from any networking opportunity on DP whereas I've had plenty from other places and previous employers.
     
    chant, Apr 19, 2009 IP
  17. usergame

    usergame Banned

    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #97
    The topic is really interesting, but instead of whether to focus on quality writings or cheap writings, it's better and more effective to pick up all the criteria and attributes that will help you to excel.
    There must be cheap to other people, specially those who are starters with tight budgets.
    But this is not enough, because it must be error free, exciting or whatever based on your situation...
     
    usergame, Apr 19, 2009 IP
  18. pcz

    pcz Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    991
    Likes Received:
    4
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    110
    #98
    if I'm looking on my business I can say that I prefer quantity over quality.

    If I'm looking for quality work I am also willing to pay for it.
     
    pcz, Apr 19, 2009 IP
  19. jhmattern

    jhmattern Illustrious Member

    Messages:
    8,909
    Likes Received:
    794
    Best Answers:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    455
    #99
    That's why I keep trying to emphasize that you won't likely get much response here if you aren't using the tools provided to you - namely your signature. Nowhere do your basic posts automatically tell people you're a writer. They have no reason to contact you about hiring you if they like your general posts, because you're not giving them any inkling of what you do. You need to use that. Without that, you're not really networking - you're just talking. There's a difference. You can't build a network of people in a certain field or market if you're not making it very clear that you're someone they'd actually want to network with professionally.

    You can't blame the forum for not converting posts into leads if you're not making it easy for people to at least figure out what you do from every post. Remember, posts in the copywriting area might note that you're a writer, but those aren't the bulk of posts that are in front of prospective clients - they're among colleagues for the most part instead.

    I have little doubt you'd have better results with a professional site in your sig designed to really push those conversions. It's not about spending any time or energy on marketing through DP. It's about letting each post do the marketing for you while you simply talk about the things you would be talking about anyway, using tools that should already exist (like a professional site - if you don't have one, now's as good a time as any to get one up). ;)
     
    jhmattern, Apr 19, 2009 IP
  20. chant

    chant Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,708
    Likes Received:
    64
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    140
    #100
    I did use my signature to promote my writing services in the first year that I was on DP. My experience was that I received no writing assignments correlated to people clicking on that signature because my rates were always too high for the clients. I haven't promoted my writing services on here in more than a year, and based on the jobs posted (and the number of threads such as this one) that I've seen on here, I don't see the point of doing any new promotion either. Like I said earlier, I have better results elsewhere. In fact, I had such good results that I didn't need to seek out any possible writing opportunities from DP. I was so busy with work that I didn't need new clients. I'm proof that DP didn't work for me but that I was a success elsewhere.

    And another thing since you mentioned having a professional site to serve as my online resume: I have one. I also would never link to it from DP either. I've read threads on here about people clickbombing other peoples' sites from here or smear campaigns directed against freelancers from their competitors or childlike employers. On top of that, from observing other threads in different freelance forums the disdain that is placed on DP as a reliable place for freelancers to operate is notable. I don't need that kind of risk or that association with my C.V.

    I realize that you like to believe that success is what you put into it on DP but like it or not my experience with this forum leads me to believe otherwise, and I don't really feel very motivated to put additional time and energy into seeing if I'm mistaken. A writer has only so many hours each day and DP has shown me that my time is better spent elsewhere.
     
    chant, Apr 19, 2009 IP