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Why I can't support immigration reform

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by r3dt@rget, Jul 4, 2013.

  1. #1
    Previously I have said that I support the current Senate passed immigration reform bill. But after looking further into the hidden details of the bill, no one should support this mess. As you may or may not know, if the bill is passed illegal residents can apply for RPI status (registered provisional immigrant status). This allows them to work anywhere. But more importantly, allows them to obtain a state issued drivers license and social security number. After 10 years RPI's can register to get green cards. After another few years they can become full citizens.

    The problem I have discovered is the freedoms and privileges illegal immigrants gain during the RPI status, which only requires a $1000 fine, no felonies, and that you haven't frequently left the US. If illegal immigrants are able to get a drivers license, they are essentially able to register to vote. Think about what you need to register to vote. In missouri as long as you have a state ID and a piece of mail you can register. No wonder democrats want this bill so bad. They could add 11 million new democrats in just a few years time.
    SEMrush
     
    r3dt@rget, Jul 4, 2013 IP
    GamingOn and Corwin like this.
    SEMrush
  2. earlpearl

    earlpearl Well-Known Member

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    #2
    @ redtarget:

    Thank you for your points. If anything this is a clear description of the thinking process for those on the extreme side of what is still called the Republican Party, but more accurately is representative of the fundamentalist/extremist perspective.

    Your singular only concern about this issue is politics. It has nothing to do with what would be better for America. Should existing immigrants who have entered the nation illegally be provided with a way to become citizens or should they be hounded, jailed and kicked out of the nation? If they have been living here for years and have children should those children be driven out of the nation. Should the children be allowed to stay? Should the children be given a shot at citizenship? Should they be allowed to go to schools?

    Should all the jobs that illegal immigrants now working at be taken from them as they are all deported? Should the US government spend tens if not hundreds of billions on Southern border controls, hiring thousands of new government employees? Should states enact laws that allow local police to question people as to their citizenship based on their appearance, accents, etc?

    If millions of illegally entered folks are deported what happens to key parts of the economy that depend on this labor? If immigrants are deported and they make up critical elements of labor in agriculture ...and large parts of the US agriculture industry suffers, driving up food costs, creating shortages, etc......should we do something about it?

    Frankly, RedTarget it appears you have zero concerns on any of these issues and only care about politics. Moreover it appears you believe that folks who entered the US illegally are automatically going to become democrats. What makes you think that way?

    Do you believe that Republicans should not be the party of immigrants primarily from Latin American nations, or other nations?

    Parties that try and govern based solely on politics, or hard and fast religious/fundamentalist perspectives and without any other consideration of what works or doesn't work for the nation usually don't last long.
    Take Egypt as an example. Two years ago, possibly in line with the rest of the Arab Spring in which native Arabs called for more democracy, more freedoms, better economies, less stringent rules, etc. Mubarek the long term Egyptian leader (dictator) was overthrown. It happened with a minimum of violence.

    Elections ensued. In very close elections, Morsi the representative of the Fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood was elected. He won with the slightest majority.

    It appears in the last year his entire agenda has been mostly about spreading controls by his party and nothing about the nation as a whole. The citizens rose up again. It appears the military was in agreement with the non-Muslim brotherhood folks and they have driven Morsi out of office.

    He spent all his time thinking about his politics and his fundamentalist concerns and nothing about the nation.

    I'd try and look at immigration as what works best for America as a whole, rather than some narrow fundamentalist perspective on politics, with the astonishing perspective that as a party there is nothing attractive about the GOP to immigrants.

    Maybe you should be looking at how to structure the GOP. I didn't realize its automatically completely unattractive to as you describe 11 million potential voters. That says a lot about that party.
     
    earlpearl, Jul 5, 2013 IP
  3. r3dt@rget

    r3dt@rget Well-Known Member

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    #3
    Wrong. My concern is that people that broke the law to get here suddenly get the right to vote after only paying a small sum of money. You call that good for the nation? It's not political at all. As I said before, I supported the bill until I found out they would basically be allowed to vote. Remove that, and I would still support a path to citizenship.
    Rounding up 11 million people is impossible. But that also doesn't mean we should just forget that they broke the law. As I already said, I support a path to citizenship. It shouldn't be easy, and we shouldn't go around spending billions rounding up aliens. But, we should enforce the law. If an illegal is pulled over, or arrested, their status should be checked and they should be deported if they are illegal. In this way, we don't waste time looking for illegals but we still enforce the laws.
    See above...
    Once again you must not have read my post very well. I support a path to citizenship, but I don't support suddenly allowing 11 million law breakers the ability to vote and have access to other privileges. I believe most will become democrats because the party lures people into their big government ideology with promises of free stuff. I can reasonably assume most illegal immigrants would benefit greatly from taxpayer assistance in the form of food stamps, obamacare, obamaphones, etc. Plus look at the statistics. Hispanic voters flock to the democrats. Is it so wrong to assume illegal immigrants (most hispanic) will do the same?

    Have the democrats considered whether their open-door policy will simply bring in a new tide of illegal immigration? Are you suggesting that opening the borders and giving all immigrants instant access to citizen privileges will improve our country? I would love to hear why you believe people down in Mexico won't catch the first ride to the border when they find out America is no longer deporting or enforcing immigration laws.

    My opinion is based on what I believe is best for America. You can't let 11 million law breakers suddenly get a pass. I believe in a path to citizenship. Specifically, the bills path is very good and I support that. I believe it is a fair trade off and will only allow the most worthy immigrants to bypass the legal immigration system after they had already broken the law.

    What you need to do is tell me why you believe 11 million illegal immigrants should have access to a drivers license. That basically gives them the ability to vote, which is my problem with the bill as written. I know it's hard for you not to scream bloody murder about Republicans in every post, but this isn't a GOP vs democrat issue or conservative vs liberal. It is a simple concern. When you give out that kind of privilege it will attract more illegal immigration. What is going to stop a new flood into the country? That is a reasonable concern and has nothing to do with politics.
     
    r3dt@rget, Jul 5, 2013 IP
  4. earlpearl

    earlpearl Well-Known Member

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    #4
    As you dissected this topic the above is how you came down to why you have reversed your position from previously supporting the just passed Senate Bill.

    RedTarget: Did you not realize that ultimately citizenship was part of this bill? If you didn't realize that why did you support it in the first place? Maybe you don't believe that citizenship includes the right to vote (assuming you have reached voting age). That would be an interesting perspective indeed, mirroring the perspectives of peoples from generations ago who banned women, non property owners, people of color from voting. Is that your perspective?

    One of the long battles within the US has been to expand the right to vote to more people, expanding rights to all folks. Are you against that principle?

    Recently from the best information we can get, the flood of illegal immigration from the South has slowed. Nobody controls a toll booth that counts illegal immigrants, but from best available resources the numbers have declined. Your comments about what will or won't encourage basically less well off folks from Latin America to enter the US any way they can has little merit. If anything, work opportunities here versus their native lands seems to be the major determinant. Simply, if the economy in Mexico surged there could be lots less immigration.

    This entire nation is a nation of immigrants. Labeling immigrants as law breakers as you did above
    is something that has been repeated by all the folks that opposed new waves of immigrants for well over 200 years. Somehow I don't believe that hundreds of millions of Americans appreciate being labeled law breakers just because they weren't born in this nation, or their parents or grandparents weren't born in this nation.


    Arguing that all Hispanics will vote Democratic automatically shows that you really haven't paid attention to political activity over the past 50 years. After all, the GOP, coming out of Florida made it a point to continuously push for extending the ban on trading for the past 60 years. In doing so they generally won the Florida Cuban immigrant population vote.

    After 60 years though, Cuba is still run as a Communist nation, now operated by Fidel Castro's brother. It has a miserable economy yet the government hasn't changed. I would think by now all would realize this long term US policy didn't work. That government never changed.

    Its also quite probable that if Jeb Bush ran for national office he would be an attractive candidate to many people of Hispanic backgrounds from many different countries. He worked in Mexico, worked in Venezuela, his wife is native born Mexican, and as a long term resident of Florida and its governor, he embraced the Cuban Florida population. An individual who works to make ties with people can be successful in attracting their support. It has nothing to do "with giving them something for free" unless you are referring to tax breaks...;) which seems to be the typical GOP strategy in attracting votes.

    And despite what Mitt Romney said in private to incredibly rich people who were giving him money and what Right Wing Extremists tell one another....people do not decide to vote Democratic because they give them "free stuff". What a bunch of crock spread between immensely wealthy people, who alternatively want a Republican in office so that he/she will lesson tax rates on them. That sounds like voting for somebody who will give you something free!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    earlpearl, Jul 5, 2013 IP
  5. r3dt@rget

    r3dt@rget Well-Known Member

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    #5
    I don't think you quite understand what I am saying about the bill. As soon as it is passed, illegal immigrants will be able to apply for RPI status. The requirements are that you must have been in the US on Dec 31, 2011, not traveled outside the US frequently, and pay $1000. Upon gaining RPI status, which follows a 1 year application period, illegal immigrants will be issued social security numbers and be able to obtain state issued drivers licenses.

    That is the problem. While they might not legally be able to vote in RPI status, nothing stops and RPI from using their drivers licenses to register to vote. What I would support is a bill that allows illegal immigrants to apply for legal status and to be able to work legally in the US. However, that RPI must continue to work towards the 7 steps to obtain a green card (such as pay taxes, learn english, etc.). If they don't, they lose their RPI status. People that don't want to apply for RPI status are eligible for deportation. People in RPI status should not get any type of federal benefits or be able to vote. Only after the 10 year waiting period, and then after the completion of the 7 required steps, shall the illegal immigrants get the green card and then be able to apply for full citizenship.

    We shouldn't be giving people who enter illegally instant access to privileges some people wait decades for. As many people say, send them to the back of the line. I don't see that as extreme in any way, as you accuse.
     
    r3dt@rget, Jul 5, 2013 IP
  6. browntwn

    browntwn Illustrious Member

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    #6

    100% not true. It is illegal for them to vote now. It remains illegal for them to vote after the bill.

    I guess by "essentially" you mean "not at all". What an absurd post.
     
    browntwn, Jul 5, 2013 IP
  7. r3dt@rget

    r3dt@rget Well-Known Member

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    #7
    Are you 100% sure my absurd post is 100% not true? I guess you didn't read the post either. What do you need to register to vote in your state? Here a piece of mail and your drivers license will do. So while it may not be legal, it is now possible using the state issued ID. And with democrats completely against any kind of ID requirement for voting, it would be virtually impossible to stop these illegal votes.

    It would be similar to states giving out drivers licenses to teenagers showing their age as 21. They can use it to buy alcohol. While it still isn't legal for them to buy alcohol, they still have access that isn't easily tracked or enforced.
     
    r3dt@rget, Jul 5, 2013 IP
  8. browntwn

    browntwn Illustrious Member

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    #8
    You are missing the point that they have to actively commit the crime of registering to vote and have to lie on that form, a crime, to be able to vote.

    You don't need a drivers license to vote now, so be able to get one hardly seems to have the importance you think it does. If you read the doc attached, many of the states will simply provide you with an ID number if you write "NONE" when apply to vote. I just don't think this is the big problem you think it is. Also, there are already plenty of non-Americans with drivers licenses that I just don't think your vision of the problem is real.

    http://www.eac.gov/assets/1/Documents/Federal Voter Registration_1209_en9242012.pdf
     
    browntwn, Jul 5, 2013 IP
  9. r3dt@rget

    r3dt@rget Well-Known Member

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    #9
    They have already actively committed a crime by entering the country illegally, so if someone is motivated to vote why would that stop them?

    You need a drivers license or state issued ID to register to vote, and you need to register to vote for your vote to be counted. The document says refer to your state for ID requirements. Under the constitution each state decides voting requirements so its hard to generalize. And the license is only one part. They also get social security numbers which allows more privileges.

    Call my crazy, but I believe the process that is most important in a democracy should be protected and only participated by legal citizens.
     
    r3dt@rget, Jul 5, 2013 IP
  10. browntwn

    browntwn Illustrious Member

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    #10
    I don't think non-citizens should vote. I just don't think it necessarily follows that once someone has a drivers license they will use it to illegally vote.

    As far as your insisting that you need to provide a DL or State issued ID, you obviously did not read the PDF I linked to. Here is what many state say about it:

    [sorry about the formatting. I just cut and pasted from the PDF. Too much work to clean it up and the point is clear.]
    Alaska: If you do
    not have any ofthese identiication
    numbers, pleasewrite "NONE"
    on the form.Aunique identifying
    numberwill be assigned to you for
    voter registration purposes

    Arizona: . If you
    do not have a current and valid
    driverlicense or non‑operating
    identiication license or a social
    security number, pleasewrite
    “NONE” on the form.Aunique
    identifying numberwill be
    assigned by the Secretary of State.

    Arkansas: If
    you do not have a driver's license
    or a nonoperating identiication
    or a socialsecurity number, please
    write "NONE" on the form.A
    unique identifying numberwill be
    assigned by the State

    Colorado: If
    you do not have a driver's license
    or a state issuedidentiicationor a
    socialsecuritynumber, pleasewrite
    "NONE" onthe form.Aunique
    identifyingnumberwill be assigned
    by the State.

    Delaware: If
    you do not have a driver's license
    or a nonoperating identiication
    or a socialsecurity number, please
    write "NONE" on the form.A
    unique identifying numberwill be
    assigned by the State

    I am not going to post all of them, but at a quick glance it looks like around half the states have that procedure where they simply assign you a number if you write "NONE" on the application to vote. That being the case, it hardly seems like having a drivers license is going to facilitate all kinds of new fraud. As you say, if they wanted to do it now it is easy as pie.

    I agree we do not want non-citizens voting in our elections and there are probably ways we can improve on that. I just do not think the issue in the bill of drivers licenses makes the problem markedly worse than it is under current law.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2013
    browntwn, Jul 5, 2013 IP
  11. r3dt@rget

    r3dt@rget Well-Known Member

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    #11
    I had a look at my states voter registration form. The first question is, "Are you a citizen of The United States of America?". I believe you can submit your registration with anything you want. With no drivers license, with no SS number. But whether or not it will be denied is what I don't know. It seems there is a pretty big problem if people can register without any identification and still cast a valid ballot. Even if they were able to register, wouldn't that unique voter ID be screened once the ballot is in? Shouldn't they flag these suspicious voters? If it's really true that states don't really care who votes, I guess this immigration reform is the least of my worries.

    UPDATE: Seems I was correct. I looked at the laws for Texas and New York. Voters who register without a drivers license number or social security number are required to provide government issued ID (bank statement, paycheck, government check, etc. that proves name/address) at the time of voting in those 2 states. I assume the rest of the country is similar. If you don't include an ID number on your application, your registration card is flagged with ID that instructs poll workers to ask for ID before you can vote.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2013
    r3dt@rget, Jul 5, 2013 IP
  12. browntwn

    browntwn Illustrious Member

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    #12


    Nope. Here is what it says for Texas: (many states do not seem to have this NONE provision. Texas was not one of them. This is all from the PDF link I provided)

    TEXAS:
    6. ID Number. You must provide
    your driver’s license number to
    register to vote. If you do not have a
    driver’s license then you will have to
    provide at least the last four digits of
    your social security number. If you
    have neither, please write “NONE”
    on the form. A unique identifying
    number will instead be assigned to
    you by your State.
     
    browntwn, Jul 5, 2013 IP
  13. r3dt@rget

    r3dt@rget Well-Known Member

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    #13
    Yes, when you register without an ID number they assign you an ID number. Those assigned ID numbers are flagged when you actually go to vote, and you need to provide government approved ID before you can vote. Here is the official Texas voting website where I got the following quote: http://www.sos.state.tx.us/elections/pamphlets/largepamp.shtml

    New York has a similar statement, found on the actual voter registration form itself:
     
    r3dt@rget, Jul 6, 2013 IP
  14. earlpearl

    earlpearl Well-Known Member

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    #14
    From everything I've read it seems that per the senate bill the earliet possible time a curently illegal immigrant might be able to vote might be around 2020 in anational election.
     
    earlpearl, Jul 6, 2013 IP
  15. gworld

    gworld Prominent Member

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    #15

    Republic and the US Constitution are dead and you have absolute Monarch instead, so who cares. Long Live King Obama. ;):)
     
    gworld, Jul 6, 2013 IP
  16. browntwn

    browntwn Illustrious Member

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    #16
    Right, so they should just as easily be able to flag anyone who has not yet proved they are a citizen. When someone gets a drivers license with a US birth certificate versus a green card or other non-citizen gets one, I would hope the government can tell the difference. A legal, non-citizen in Texas can still get a drivers license. I simply would not associate having a drivers license with being legal. I am not concerned with who can drive. I am concerned with who can vote. I don't mind more checks on making sure people who vote are citizens.

    So, more scrutiny on registration and voting - I am all for it.
    Using drivers licenses to assume someone is a citizen is flawed method already and I would not do it. So letting more people have them is not a concern to me because it is not a good substitute for verifying who is a citizen now.
     
    browntwn, Jul 6, 2013 IP
  17. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #17
    I'm with you here, but the problem is, none of the legislation in front of the Senate deals with our broken illegal immigration system. I would be happy if they modeled our system after ANY of the systems from south of our border, including Mexico, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, or Panama. You sneak across their borders and try and work or collect free health care, and you'll find your ass sitting in prison until you can be deported.

    We can't just build a fence, or put more guards on the wall. You need enforcement within our borders to make our immigration system work, or all this amnesty will only encourage more illegal immigration.
     
    Obamanation, Jul 7, 2013 IP
  18. r3dt@rget

    r3dt@rget Well-Known Member

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    #18
    I believe it is longer than that through legal means. From what I understand there is a minimum 10 year period after RPI status to get a green card. Then another 3 years for full citizenship.

    But the legal means to vote is not my problem. It is the fact that under the law, immigrants only have to apply for RPI status and pay $1000 to get a social security number and drivers license. Either of those opens the door to illegal voting that would be hard to track or enforce. Unless there is a current system in place that verifies citizen status during the voter application stage.

    Honestly I am not sure if there is a current system in place in states that actually checks legal status for voter applications. I assumed that as long as you provided a DL or SSN that matches your registration name then that was all the verification done. If it is true that voter applications are scrutinized to the point where legal citizen status is verified by checking the DL or SSN number in the system, then my fears of illegal voting are resolved.
     
    r3dt@rget, Jul 8, 2013 IP
  19. earlpearl

    earlpearl Well-Known Member

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    #19
    The other way to evaluate the issue is to check the volume of actual voter fraud case by case. I believe you'd find that voter fraud has been to date extraordinarily trivial and minute over the past many years.

    I know its consistently raised by the right wing as a reason to enforce stricter and tighter regulations primarily focused on poorer people or people of color who will find it more difficult to pass through the regulations that are established, more difficult to travel and pay for the hoops established, by ruling parties in state legislatures, and are generally being created by GOP dominated legislatures to attack voting groups that they believe will vote democratic.

    While in office the Bush administration focused extreme attention on trying to find and prosecute voter fraud through the justice department.

    The Bush administration had 5 or 6 years in which it focused one group of attorneys on potential voter fraud. The results turned up virtually nothing and the politically dominated wing of the justice department than fired these attorneys, essentially without cause: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dismissal_of_U.S._attorneys_controversy

    The very concept of significant voter fraud, invariably argued by the right wing is an extraordinarily hollow baseless argument following five years of unimpeded opportunities to find these so called problems.

    Voter fraud has simply not been found to be a significant issue. Unless of course you consider issues like this one: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/20...enson-relax-robocall-state-prosecutor-emmet-c . In that case a GOP operative was ultimately found guilty of conspiracy as he generated inappropriately and falsely described robot calls trying to influence a state wide election.

    I'd spend a lot less time worrying about election fraud with immigrants. A reasonable amount of research has found that immigrants vote at lower levels of participation than native born folks both in the US and elsewhere: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-001-x/2012001/article/11629-eng.htm#united
     
    earlpearl, Jul 8, 2013 IP
  20. Corwin

    Corwin Well-Known Member

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    #20
    Here in Massachusetts, plenty of Illegals vote. All they need is a driver's license or Social Security number.

    Oh, and when they fill out the form they check the "Yes" box for U.S. citizenship.

    Non citizens registered to vote in Massachusetts
    This article makes a great read if you enjoy reading about corrupt Democrats.

    Some estimate that 10% to 15% of voters in the Boston area are illegal. The reason? They can get a driver's license.

    It's freakin' insane. The cost of illegals in the Boston area is staggering.
     
    Corwin, Jul 13, 2013 IP