Which again, they were. But are todays Jews responsible? No. Am I then responsible for slavery in the US? Am I responsible for taking land from the Indians in this country? No, but I am made to feel that way many times. Keep in mind the Vatican only recently (92 I think) agreed that Galileo was right, the earth revolves around the sun. I'm Catholic, but the Vatican has never ruled my life. I guess that is one of the beauties of that religion. I have just as much freedom to do as I please as I do in a democracy. All the years I went to church, Catholic School, Sunday School, etc.. I never once remember being taught over and over that Jews were bad, or that all Jews were responsible for killing Jesus. They just don't teach that. It might be on the books so to speak, but it is not something that is preached to you. No one ever told me the Sun revolved around the Earth either in Catholic School, or during mass, etc.. It's really a non-issue. There are laws on the books in several US states that prohibit certain types of (usually normal) concensual sex with your spouse that are technically illegal, but no ones pushing that issue either. As usual, your point is? Again, that was supposed to happen. I forgive them. They were forgiven by God and were the first to enter the kindom of heaven. They are after all the chosen ones. How on earth do you get off on tangents like this that really have no relavency to this thread. Of course there was. Hitler agreed to leave them alone so long as they looked the other way. If you are implying that the Vatican was some how interested in attempting to commit Genocide of the chosen ones, I think that would be quite a strech. But hey, that was the mantra of the day. Just look the other way. France did. Most of Europe did. Hell even the US did. You are like so cool!
You are so off base, personally I don't care what the vatican says and the nazis don't believe the bible as a whole, only the parts they like and the rest they say the Jews changed or reworded. The new testament is not against the Jews, Jesus came to the Jews, born of the Jews, spoke with the Jews and His beginning followers were Jews, but then he started to reach out to the gentiles. His condemnations of Jews was only to the leaders that had gone astray. Not just the Jews are responsible for His death, but I am also and many others would say the same. But, then again, you won't read this, you will just try to find one thing to try to make an extremist statement out of...
I strongly disagree. I question again, whether you are simply not familiar with the subject at hand, or trying to be intentionally deceptive. Here is why I disagree: Quran [5:51] - O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. This verse alone, separates those who believe from those of Christian and Jewish faith. It goes on to say that muslims should not befriend Christians or Jews. I don't know how much clearer that could be. Quran [98:1-8] The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. Who are People of the Book? Let's turn to Wikipedia for a definition of "People of the Book" which clearly states "Christians and Jews." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book So we know that "unbelievers" among the People of the Book are referred to as Christians, Jews, From the hadith (there are a number of hadiths or ahadeeth as plural): "Oh Muslim, Oh servant of God, here is a Jew hiding behind me. Come here and kill him." This is in reference to judgement day. There is more context to this that is worth reading. Quran [9:29] Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last day, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jiziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued. Quran [47:4] When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take ransom from them, until War shall lay down her burdens. Quran [8:12] Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them." Sudan’s Muslim government in the north has killed nearly 2 million black non-Muslims in the south and enslaved thousands who are sold to other Muslim countries. In Nigeria, where 16 of the 19 northern states have adopted shari’a, thousands of non-Muslims are being killed and hundreds of churches burned down. In Indonesia, Christians are being killed daily and churches and villages are being destroyed by Muslims who are determined to force everyone into Islam. In your world, you may constitute this as acceptance. I don't see how you could possibly come to that conclusion in an honest way. There is no tolerance for others in islam. Even in the wikipedia reference, it notes that non-believers are second class citizens (dhimmis) and only granted certain rights. We also recall how muslims drove out Christians and Jews from Arabia. I will cede you one point. That you, as an Athiest (which I do not believe you are) are the one that should be concerned the most. You are correct, to a point. In islam, one that believes in NO GOD is the worst of the unbelievers. This is a short summary of the issue. There is much more that could be expanded on. I submit that if you are not willing to see what is in this short summary, an expanded version would be futile. If there's something you contest, do so. Otherwise, I expect the usual silence accorded me when you cannot contest what I've stated.
Actually Gtech, to interpret that from the muslim point of view, is that we are all non-believers (Jew, Christian or athiest), so I don't think there is any distinction to them. Unless maybe from a non-believing offspring.
Mia, debunked So according to you the Old Testament is wrong, the New Testament doesn't mean what it says and who cares about what Vatican says. Therefore, you define Christianity according to what you think. Do you have a direct line to Jesus? What carrier do you use Bell or Sprint? It must be quite expensive the call to heaven and back. debunked when you write that the Nazis didn't believe in the bible as a whole, do you have any source for this, can you provide me with some information from Nazi literature, where they say that they don't believe in Bible? I thought that they by killing the Jews and Homosexuals where taking the teachings of Bible too literally. That is quite a funny sh*t that you try to pull, do you think you are posting for some religious moron? According to you: People of the Book = Christians and Jews unbelievers = Christians and Jews There fore we should be able to deduct People of the Book = unbelievers now let's take the original quote and substitue the synonyms: 1) The unbelievers among the unbelievers and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. 2) The the People of the Book among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. 3) The Christians and Jews among Christians and Jews and the pagans shall burn for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. does any of them make sense? No, because unbelievers mean people who deny God or have a faith that does not have book. Plus what are you worried about, it talks about fire of hell and as far as I know you can not go to hell before you are dead and if you are right about Jesus, he will be standing on the other side with fire extinguisher and won't let you burn. While you are talking about genocide, would you like to give the examples of nuns from Africa that are hiding in Europe and supported by Vatican since they are wanted for crimes against humanity? I am not going to get in a shooting match with you about which religion is worst since as far as I am concerned both Islam and Christianity are reactionary religions that should be put in the archive of history.
To me the old and new testament are in the same book, I never said the old testament is wrong in any way. God gave different promises to the Jews, then to all the world. Nothing complex about that. The vatican is catholic thing, I never said I was catholic. I look to the Bible for direction and understanding, not man. I would say yes, but I am afraid you don't understand. I love to talk to Jesus. Do the searches, they believe Jews rewrote parts of the bible. Most Nazi's believe they are "israel" - reference to 'christian identity' or 'israel identity' I have spoken to a couple of 'nazis' - 2 brothers of which have come to see the truth and love people of all races now. One is a missionary in mexico. God can change the heart of a person and it is awesome when it happens. Killing Jews is because of a hatred similar to many of the muslims and killing of homosexuals is misunderstanding of man's role in dealing with sin of others. I believe if Jesus was here today he would be seen hugging homosexuals. Did you forget that the modern day nazis in america are racist towards blacks? Why? Most believe that they are a seed of the devil, which they say about Jews also (sounds nutty like something from a muslim if you ask me.)
That's why I didn't even try to the second half of the post. First half sounds like serious questions or concerns.
The first half was just offensive, but I can understand it I guess. I know I felt like that at one time. I grew up Catholic, had my share of religion and struggled with the very existance of God, but found myself complaining and blaming someone I began to think did not exist. Then came my wedding day. We got married outdoors in late September just a couple weeks after 9/11. It was warm, it was sunny, not a cloud in the sky. The perfect day. I took one look up at that beautiful sky and thought, there really is a God. I really do not think I ever lost faith, I was just angry. I guess I made my peace with God that day and stopped blaming him for everything and anything. Who would have guessed a few years later when my son was born I would have that same feeling. Yeah, there is a God. My point? It's not something you learn, it's not something you read in a book, and its not something you find with religion. Ultimately it is just that feeling you get every once in a while when you look at that beautiful blue sky, or into the eyes of your first born that proves to you, yeah, there is a God. It's something indescribable unless you feel it. In the end, everyone does. So again, I guess I can understand. It's a struggle when you question faith, or lack there of. It's much harder to believe than not if you ask me. Looking for proof that there is no God is the same as looking for proof that there is a God. One thing I can say for sure whenever I went looking for proof that there was no God, I did not get that warm fuzzy feeling that there was no God.
That is OK but if he starts answering back please try to see a doctor as soon as possible. I am seriously interested to see a Nazi literature that explains that they do not except the Bible, so please provide the source of your information but if all you have is that you heard it from a friend of friend who knew a Nazi once, that's OK too, I understand. That is very interesting and directly against the Old Testament but since God already changed his mind once between the Old Testament and New Testament, so who knows may be he changes his mind again. It seems your Jesus is becoming very politically correct, so if he can bring himself not to vote Republican next time, who knows may be even I start to like him. By the way mia and Gtech do you agree with debunked about hugging homosexuals? How about marriage right for homosexuals? If Jesus is God and all men are equal in front of God, doesn't this mean that they should have a equal right to marry in front of Jesus? What part is silly, if the logic in the posting was too complicated, may be this is a better way to explain it. A=2 B=2 -------->A=B I hope the above is not too much math for you. You also didn't answer my question in previous posting if the terrorist actions are also God's will or do you believe that terrorists have some magic power to act outside of God's will and knowledge? Since you are Christian and supporter of New Testament, how come you don't follow the Jesus teachings and turn the other cheek? mia, debunked, Gtech be honest with yourself, all your talks about Islam, Christianity and terrorists is just an excuse to aim your anger and frustration that is caused by your own life toward a group that is at present political situation is acceptable to hate, much the same way that blacks or Indians were before.
Oh, Sh*t, just think if it was raining, you would have thought there is no God. and we wouldn't have this discussion today.
Wouldn't it be a great day if someone comes up in the Muslim world like Gandhi? Gandhi was a devoted "Bible Student" he drew his wisdom from this book and saved millions of people when he acted accordingly, without bloodshed. What an amazing power of love and life. What an amazing testemony of the Bible. What an awful living God who kept his promise. Only when he(Gandhi) dicided to get babtized, the church tried to make a big show out of it, he got scared away by this act. - I believe that he got babtized in secret. Yes, and unfortunately, some churches in these days are not the "churches" Christ wants. Many are at its best open snake farms, nothing else. But we all need the holy Ghost as our helper to find out, because this is the promised helper for the time being. Chosing to fall appart from faith in God, Jesus and the holy Ghost will not serve anyone.
I personally talked to nazis that have stated this and I have even read about their beliefs online in the last year. It's there - just look it up. (But when you try to make me sound stupid but you don't read what I wrote, you are the one sounding foolish.) You missed my point, but obviously you haven't read the bible, you are going by hearsay instead of reading it yourself. Homosexuallity is considered a sin. If God destroyed all sinners, there would be no one on the planet left. He sent Jesus to save us from our sins including homosexuality and out of his mercy saves us. If you read what Jesus did you would find that he went to the sinners and forgave them, he did say to stop sinning also. Those he rebuked where those making up religious laws and not following God's laws themselves. You are missing the point still. Sorry, but you need to read the bible in order to understand what it says, instead of taking someone elses word for it. ????? ?? ? Now, this doesn't seem to fit me at all, and from the posts I read from Mia and Gtech, I don't think neither of them.
As a matter of fact, yes! I note your reactionary response to the truth as well. I expected no less. It validates a very important point, for me
You guys crack me up with your fantasy world, can you please tell us your source for this or do you know a friend of a friend who once talked with some one who knew Ghandi. This is quite contrary to what Gandhi often said that his values were simple; drawn from traditional Hindu beliefs: truth (satya) and nonviolence (ahimsa). He was a devoted Hindu. How is Jesus going to make them stop the sin. I remember that you wrote Jesus is going to hug them, does Jesus makes homosexuals to heterosexuals by hugging them? In this case he better get ready, he has a lot of hugging to do. If everything is according to God's will, doesn't this mean that people who are homosexual are that way because of God, or God doesn't have a control over homosexuals the same way that he doesn't have control over terrorists? Debunked, I can't find anything about what you mentioned that Nazi idealogy did not except part of Bible, I am very interested to see this, can you at least try to guide me where I can find this text, after all it is kind of difficult for me to talk with a friend of your friend who was previously Nazi but now is in Mexico. Why do I need help, according to your own post, you decided that there was a God because it was sunny, isn't logical that you wouldn't come to the same conclusion if it was raining? I see that you are not answering the philosophical questions, are you getting a revelation about how illogical your way of thinking was? It is OK, you don't need to answer it, I have seen through these discussions that both you and debunked have become more tolerant of other beliefs and cultures and that was the whole purpose of my postings. Examine what you think that you believe in, Christianity and the bible and you will discover that the culture of torture, killing and human right abuse that your government try to feed you as a true Christian way for defense of your religion is nothing more than a propaganda instrument in hands of people that recognize money as their only true God. There are good Christians and there are bad Christians, good Jews and bad Jews, good Muslims and bad Muslims, good Atheist and bad Atheist, judge people as individual and for who they are and what they do and not because they belong to certain race, nationality or religion.
Back to Bush bashing. You watch far to much TV. Must be an Al Frankin fan. I am not sure what Jesus and Republicans have to do with this thread, outside of the fact that you do not believe in one (or you say you don't) and you hate the other. Do I agree with Debunked on the subject of Jesus hugging homosexuals? Of course. He hugged murderers, the ill, the good, the bad, and those that would see him die. Our God is a compasionate God. A caring God. Not one that asks us to kill for him. What does Debunked's opinion of Jesus and homosexuals have to do with marriage? If you are trying to get me in a "Gotcha" situation you are messing with the wrong person. I am a Conservative Republican, white male, 1/2 Italian (2nd generation), 1/4 German, the rest is English and Indian. I grew up Catholic as you know. I don't go to church every Sunday, I don't agree with everything in the Catholic church or in conservatism. BUT!!! I could care less on the gay marriage subject. I've got a lot of gay friends. It is the Bible that says mankind ought not lay down with mankind, not me, not the church. The Bible does not say that homosexuals should be killed. If you would actually stop making things up in your head based on what you have heard from nut cases like Al Frankin, John Kerry (a Catholic no less), Michael Moore, or whatever whacko you worship, and read, you might actually learn something. If gays want to get married, fine. I really do not care. Oh my God, a Republican and a Catholic that actually thinks for himself? A Republican and a Catholic that has gay friends, and does not care that they are gay? What is this world coming to? Who am I to judge someone elses behaivor? "Judge not less ye be judged". You, you're the silly part. You cannot ask or answer a rational well thought out question without first bashing things like God, Republicans, American, or Freedom. Where as terror and terrorist are concerned however, you seem to be singing their praises all day long. Kinda makes one wonder. Very good! The next letter is "C" it makes a "ka" sound. Had you been paying attention to reality you would realize that man has something called "Free Will". What happens now, is not "God's" will, but man's. God gave us free will and the freedom to choose our own path and our own destiny. It is up to us to make things right, not God. All we are to ask of God is the strength to do it. There is only one person who is angry here. That is you. Why not take this weekend off and go see an old friend, loved one, family. Do you have kids? Hug them, take them to the zoo. Take the weekend off and breath in the free air you have up there. Take a little bit of time to appreciate life and all it has given you. You really need to relax a bit. Have a nice weekend!
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) OBS !
You need help on the hatred and anger side. That is what I meant. If you could not understand what I said, I can't help you. You'll figure it out some day; we all do. That fact that is was sunny really had nothing to do with it. If you cannot see the point in what I said, again, I cannot help you. You'll find your own way. Expressing an opinion = illogical? Interesting concept. Bravo. You'll get there man. Be patient. Did you not hear me when I said early on in this post that tolerance is the same as not accepting it? I don't tolerate other people or religions, I respect them. There is a clear difference. Remember when I said that Muslims "tolerate" Jews? There is a difference. Tolerance is not acceptance. Tolerance is not respect. I realize the dictionary definition says otherwise. But to me, tolerance is one who unwillingly proclaims to accept or respect another even though they do not. Nothing in my opinion has changed in this thread. No one in this thread, save for yourself ever proclaimed that they did not respect others beliefs or cultures. You however do not respect the beliefs and culture of those in the US, which you have made very clear on several occasions. Are you completely mad? What killing, torture and human right abuse? What country are you talking about again? You cannot just make things up and expect us all to believe it is so. What on earth happened to make you so vindictive and bitter? I don't judge at all. Perhaps that is your problem. You judge people. I leave judgement to the big man upstairs.