...the sound of gworld's crickets chirping. Mia, thanks for your indepth history lessons. One thing history tells us is that our allies of today may not be our allies of tomorrow. We've seen that with Iraq, as you've pointed out. We also know that many others provided Saddam with weapons over the years (as I've posted several times). Allies change over the course of history based on their needs. This is evident with the oil for food scandal where France, Russia, Germany and China were the top benefactors of that program and choose to turn a blind eye. Topped off with the oil vouchers saddam was giving out to influential world leaders and businessmen coupled with the UN's own betrayal of world trust by participating and benefiting from such schemes. The power of money and corruption spread across our traditional allies regarding Iraq is indicative of how frail allies can be. While we've helped many countries and continue to provide direct economic support of countries that most would consider hostile towards us, people like gworld continue to ignore the fact of just how much the US helps other countries. I'm convinced gworld is disappointed saddam is not still in power and further convinced he hopes the terrorists that have infiltrated from neighboring countries, as well as other parts of the world (Yes, we've found muslims from all over Europe and other parts of the world there to help as terrorists kill Iraqi people) win. The only remaining issue is why he feels this way? What motivates his support of the terrorists there to win? Unfortunately, when the topic turns back to this, he will quickly attempt to change the topic to "I denounce all killing of innocent people" then turn right back to blaming the US and Israel for the world's problems. I don't think he really wants to talk about the opposite side of the equation.
"Iran needs still ten years for the bomb" US secret service experts assume meanwhile Iran needs still about ten years for the building of nuclear weapons. This reported the "Washington post office". Speakers of the white house had so far said that Teheran could be able in few years to develop a nuclear weapon. - Can you believe that??? what about Pakistan? How long did it take to build it? The same day on September 11th, 2001 when the world trade center got hit the inteligence chief or pakistan transferred $100,000.00 to Atta's account while he was at a meeting with American officials in Washington DC.
If we could get back to the topic of the thread, can we agree on the following? 1. There could be a scenario in which in the next ten years the US with the help of a few allies would like to invade Iran and overthrow their goverment. 2. It would be easy to invade or overthrow the Iranian goverment if their defence isn't backed by nukes. 3. It would be difficult/risky to attack Iran if they get a few warheads. On the rest of the stuff I guess we better just agree to disagree, or what do you say?
Sorvoja, my postion remains. Nuclear weapons in the hands of a country whose religious ideology is to kill infidels (that would be me, I'm a proud infidel) is bad, period. They have consistently lied (and some have bought into the lie) that they are only producing nuclear material for peaceful purposes. My position is only strengthened by Mahmoud Ahmadi-Nejad's recent remarks: I can understand how muslims would not object to their nuclear weapons, but I suspect not too many infidels (me included) wants a country whose religious ideology is to kill non-believers (the kafir, if you will) to have them.
I repect everyones opinions except SiteTutor who called me a nazi, and I will leave it at that. This thread will not lead to any good, so I will not take part in it anymore.
Except that they wouldn't shoot at the U.S., but at Israel. The hatred for Israel is so extreme that they shoot at them when attacked. Answer me this.. If Israel and the USA were destroyed would these muslim countrys stop killing people? Anyone with common sense knows the answer.
I didn't call you a nazi, and coming to think of it, I think you are more blind than anything else. This is what I've said: OK, the word racism was it, huh? I don't think you understand the force of hatred against the US and Israel and now also the UK.
and this is the attitude causing so many problems. Comminication is the key to preventing wars. However it includes the willingness to see the other side, even if you are not Jewish, American, Christian, Muslim ... whatever.
How about shah of Iran or General Pinochet? Do you remember the CIA favorite general who collected people in football stadium, torturing and killing them. The same guy that couple of years ago when he was in England, Spain (not Islamic country) wanted to arrest him for crime against humanity but England send him back to Chile.
The idiot Sal, who ever he is gave me a red rep with following comment about my posting about pinochet. "You are always so negative. Why do you make things up? Sal" What part of my posting about Pinochet was made up? Let's put the following search term in Google and look at some of the result: Google search for: "chile pinochet football stadium torture" http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2020/stories/20031010000505800.htm "The Allende government had announced its intention to implement land and economic reforms. The monopoly of U.S. multinationals over key resources was challenged. If the democratic revolution had been allowed to succeed, it would have had a tremendous impact over the rest of Latin America, which, in those days, was largely dominated by authoritarian and corrupt regimes backed by Washington. The destruction of the presidential palace was an ominous beginning for Chileans. General Augusto Pinochet, who was handpicked by the Nixon administration to run the country, was about to open the most brutal chapter in Chilean history The CIA provided the Chilean secret police under Pinochet with the names of "leftist subversives" and even American sympathisers of the Allende government based in the country. Many of those identified by the CIA joined the ranks of thousands of the "missing". More than 4,000 Chileans were killed by the notorious secret police — Dina. Another 70,000 were tortured. Hundreds of thousands were exiled. The U.S. Embassy in the Chilean capital, Santiago, was aware of the goings on. The main football stadium in the capital was turned into a temporary concentration camp and torture centre. Hundreds of people were shot dead with machine guns in the stadium itself. " http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/195413.stm "The former Chilean dictator, General Augusto Pinochet, has been arrested in London on a warrant from Spain requesting his extradition on murder charges." http://www.planetworldcup.com/GUESTS/matt20020902.html "Just inside the secondary entrance of the cemetery stands one of the most impressive and moving monuments anywhere in the world. Surrounded by rocks, trees, shrubs and single, haunting dated photographs of people long lost, there is a huge slab of marble, naming all of the 'disappeared' and murdered victims of Pinochet - including Allende himself. I gave up counting at 3000, and instead focussed on the ages. Many of the people were still in their teens and early twenties, though some victims had also been much older." http://www.american-buddha.com/cia.chile.htm "We find ourselves faced with forces which operate in the shadows, without a flag, with powerful weapons, posted in the various places of influence... From the very day of our electoral triumph on September 4th 1970, we have felt the effects of a large scale external pressure against us which tried to prevent the inauguration of a government freely elected by the people, and has attempted to bring it down ever since, an action that has tried to cut us off from the world, to strangle our economy and paralyse trade in our principle export, copper, and to deprive us of access to sources of international financing . We are the victims of virtually imperceptible activities, usually disguised with words and statements that extol the sovereignty and dignity of my country. We know in our own hearts however the distance that separates these words from the specific activities that we have to face." - PRESIDENT ALLENDE, addressing the United Nations, December 4th 1972. Allende was murdered on September 11th 1973 by American-backed forces.
Maybe Sal notices the same thing most of us notice here. You just skipped right over any talk about Iran and how they are ready to conquer the world. And what did you do? Why, exactly what I've pointed out numerous times. You go right back to blaming America for the world's problems. Mia corrected you on most of that fake list you provided. Did you learn anything? Will you remember it, or pretend you never heard it and try to use it again in the future?
Let's talk about Iran. Google the following term:"Iran mossadeq shah coup" http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB28/ "Perhaps the most general conclusion that can be drawn from these documents is that the CIA extensively stage-managed the entire coup, not only carrying it out but also preparing the groundwork for it by subordinating various important Iranian political actors and using propaganda and other instruments to influence public opinion against Mossadeq." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mossadeq "On April 4, 1953, US Central Intelligence Agency director Allen W. Dulles approved $1 million to be used "in any way that would bring about the fall of Mossadegh." Soon the CIA's Tehran station started to launch a propaganda campaign against Mossadegh. Finally, according to The New York Times, in early June, American and British intelligence officials met again, this time in Beirut, and put the finishing touches on the strategy. Soon afterward, according to his later published accounts, the chief of the CIA's Near East and Africa division, Kermit Roosevelt, Jr. a grandson of Theodore Roosevelt, arrived in Tehran to direct it." http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/vol48no2/article10.html "Kinzer is at his journalistic best when—drawing on published sources, declassified documents, interviews, and a bootleg copy of a secret Agency history of the operation9—he reconstructs the day-to-day running of TPAJAX. The plan comprised propaganda, provocations, demonstrations, and bribery, and employed agents of influence, "false flag" operatives, dissident military leaders, and paid protestors. The measure of success seemed easy enough to gauge—"[a]ll that really mattered was that Tehran be in turmoil," writes Kinzer. The design, which looked good on paper, failed on its first try, however, and succeeded largely through happenstance and Roosevelt's nimble improvisations. No matter how meticulously scripted a covert action may be, the "fog of war" affects it as readily as military forces on a battlefield. Roosevelt may have known that already—he and his confreres chose as the project's unofficial anthem a song from the musical Guys and Dolls: "Luck Be a Lady Tonight."10 TPAJAX had its surreal and offbeat moments. Kinzer describes Roosevelt calmly lunching at a colleague's house in the embassy compound while "[o]utside, Tehran was in upheaval. Cheers and rhythmic chants echoed through the air, punctuated by the sound of gunfire and exploding mortar shells. Squads of soldiers and police surged past the embassy gate every few minutes. Yet Roosevelt's host and his wife were paragons of discretion, asking not a single question about what was happening." To set the right mood just before Washington's chosen coup leader, a senior army general named Fazlollah Zahedi, spoke to the nation on the radio, US officials decided to broadcast some military music. Someone found an appropriate-looking record in the embassy library and put on the first song; to everyone's embarrassment, it was "The Star-Spangled Banner." A less politically discordant tune was quickly played, and then Zahedi took the microphone to declare himself "the lawful prime minister by the Shah's order." Mossadeq was sentenced to prison and then lifetime internal exile." Where would have Iran be today if the democratic movemnets in that country was not stopped by CIA? Don't you agree that we should thank CIA for present leadership in Iran? How the hell a country that could not win over Iraq in 8 years can try to conquer the world? Iran military power "Most of Iran's military equipment is aging or second rate and much of it is worn. Iran lost some 50-60% of its land order of battle in the climatic battles of the Iran-Iraq war, and it has never had large-scale access to the modern weapons and military technology necessary to replace them" Don't forget that Iranian navy is also a joke, I think about 14,000 sailors. How are they going to move their soldiers to conquer the world? By an Air force that is build up of couple of old F5 and F14 that USA has sold them previously?
Gworld These are things of the past you're talking and its allright, but in meanwhile the picture has changed. We're facing from time to time problems in our own culture which are home made and we have to deal with these as well and with priority in an ongoing process. But in no way can mistakes justify to allow a nuclear weapon development in a spiritual underdeveloped country where it is sooooo easy to make the 65% uneducated people from that region sharp against the rest of the world. Please don't forget that this is a conspiracy of certain Islam countries and that they try to play a cat and mouse game. Don't underestimate their capabilities or else you're going to be dissapointed one day. They would use it if they could without a second thought. Pentagon, CIA, NSA etc. are well aware of Pakistans role in this game too, but for now it seems to be more useful for those agencies to keep up some pressure to give them a chance to improve, but with little results so far. Do you think that the terror schools in Pakistan are there by coincidence? Wether the terrorists try to intimate Pakistan because of "Allas Bombs" there or not, at the end they will be together. How could Pakistan aquire the atomic bombs? Any ideas, facts etc.?
The history, or what's going on today? The opportunity was there, just not sure why you didn't take it.
In my post I talked about Iran's present military power too. Explain to me how a navy that can not even move few soldiers out of Gulf of Oman can CONQUER the world? How can few old F5 or F14 be any match for any modern air force?