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We should all get a Universal Basic Income

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by bacardirum, Dec 10, 2019.

  1. jrbiz

    jrbiz Illustrious Member

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    #21
    But if a socialist policy is strictly enforced and you simply cannot earn more than anyone else (socialist Utopia) then what happens? You keep using capitalist mechanisms to support a socialist premise. I am trying to extrapolate out to where hardcore socialists would eventually take us, which is complete government control of all money and earnings with everyone getting the same and no disparity in income. Remember in Communist countries where they have neighbors reporting on neighbors to ensure that the Worker's Paradise was not corrupted? If you somehow got a better picnic basket, you would be reported and led away to the gulag for capitalist corruption.

    Above, you start to make the case that socialism goes against human nature and would never work in its "ideal" form because human nature is to be greedy and ambitious (and more, of course.) I agree, by the way, but there are enough uninformed people out there who do not get it and need to be educated on what the result of comprehensive socialism (e.g., Communism) would be. Make no mistake: the people calling for UBI now, really want total government control of people and their lives via the economy and other social mechanisms.SEMrush
     
    jrbiz, Dec 17, 2019 IP
    SEMrush
  2. bacardirum

    bacardirum Well-Known Member

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    #22
    It's so simple, it keeps society equal and fair. You can get it and work, you are then better off than others. We obviously still need doctors, police, surgeons etc, they are not going to give up 60k a year for UBI, even though they will get it as it's a fair system. What is wrong with people being lazy, where does it state that humans must work, as far as I am concerned we created this, the only things you really need for life is food, water and shelter, the rest is made up sh*t.
     
    bacardirum, Dec 17, 2019 IP
  3. bacardirum

    bacardirum Well-Known Member

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    #23
    That is a bit rich saying lazy people like me, you obviously just jumped to that conclusion, as you have no idea about me, I imagine I do a lot more work than you... You jumped the gun and showed yourself :)

    I do not rent my house, I own it, it's a 3 bedroom house with front and back garden, again you jumped the gun, you are good at this :)

    What a mess :)
     
    bacardirum, Dec 17, 2019 IP
  4. bacardirum

    bacardirum Well-Known Member

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    #24
    What a mess :)
     
    bacardirum, Dec 17, 2019 IP
  5. jrbiz

    jrbiz Illustrious Member

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    #25
    Fair enough. Where does it state that if I am not lazy and do work, that I have to pay for someone who is lazy and does not work?
     
    jrbiz, Dec 17, 2019 IP
  6. mmerlinn

    mmerlinn Notable Member

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    #26
    HOW is it FAIR to me that money I EARN is STOLEN from me and given to someone that does NOT NEED IT?
     
    mmerlinn, Dec 17, 2019 IP
    Spoiltdiva likes this.
  7. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #27
    Lets humour you and accept that statement, people would still create a hierarchy based on some other metric - the prestige of a Government position, being a Doctor, from a particular family, having paler skin, or being male.

    In America, you hear the snobbery of the Mayflower descendants. They might be trailer trash but they use their distant ancestors to elevate their social position.
     
    sarahk, Dec 17, 2019 IP
  8. jrbiz

    jrbiz Illustrious Member

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    #28
    Sure, people will always find ways to feel better than others and it could very well be cosmetic things like you suggest. But then who is going to create the next FaceBook, or the latest new drug, or other such important enhancements to our civilization? Or, on the other side, who is going to repair the smelly, dirty sewer lines when you can just go on a picnic?
     
    jrbiz, Dec 17, 2019 IP
  9. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #29
    You've never met any civic minded people?
    People who do unpleasant jobs for poor pay because they believe they're making the world a better place?
    Our economies are bolstered by the unpaid work of many - all the volunteers who turn up and work hard to make our worlds safer, more pleasant.
    These people exist, and will continue to exist, regardless of the political mechanisms.
     
    sarahk, Dec 17, 2019 IP
  10. jrbiz

    jrbiz Illustrious Member

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    #30
    I would hate to be waiting for someone to repair a broken sewer pipe based on whether that person is feeling charitable that day. I also don't buy the argument that someone will go through rigorous medical school, crazy residency hours, etc., to become a doctor that lives exactly the same as everyone else. I also do not see how charitable impulses would lead to the formation and success of companies like Facebook, Google, IBM, Cisco, etc. Why would you want the stress and pressures of being the CEO of IBM when you were being paid and living in similar housing as the person who sweeps the floors?
     
    jrbiz, Dec 17, 2019 IP
    mmerlinn likes this.
  11. mmerlinn

    mmerlinn Notable Member

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    #31
    Ah, but if everyone were monetarily equal, you would be forced to wait OR pay EVERYONE in the world the same amount that you would pay to get the job done NOW. Can't be giving that sewer fixer more than the bums on the street. It would not be 'FAIR!'
     
    mmerlinn, Dec 17, 2019 IP
    jrbiz likes this.
  12. bacardirum

    bacardirum Well-Known Member

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    #32
    Why would the CEO's, doctors etc be getting paid similar to everyone else? I think you do not grasp the concept @jrbiz. Everyone gets the UBI, but say I am a doctor, I also get my £80,000 a year salary on top, as that is what I am paid to be a doctor. Nobody will have to live in poverty, but if you do want to work you will of course be richer, as you will have a secondary income. And if you want to run a business, it will be good for you, as everyone will have money to at least spend.
     
    bacardirum, Dec 17, 2019 IP
  13. jrbiz

    jrbiz Illustrious Member

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    #33
    Ah, but you @bacardirum seem to think that UBI will be "magically" free for the lazy folks you want to give it to. You don't seem to understand that the government actually does not produce wealth and, therefore, has no money of its own. It can only take money from one person to give to another. That doctor making 80K will have to pay for the lazy person making whatever the minimum UBI will be. And, if you read my posts above, you will learn that these wealth confiscation and redistribution schemes are never enough for crazed socialists. Ultimately, they want everyone to make the exact same amount to achieve "fairness" for everyone except the ruling class who will, of course, have complete control of the economy and live great lives, themselves, while the masses scramble for the remaining crumbs. Just study what has happened in Communist countries (which is simply socialism writ large) to see how this type of effort works. Venezuela is the most recent and most heartbreaking example of such bad ideas being implemented by the evil people that socialist government attracts.
     
    jrbiz, Dec 18, 2019 IP
  14. Karen May Jones

    Karen May Jones Prominent Member

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    #34
    nope
     
    Karen May Jones, Jan 9, 2020 IP