Watching Judge Judy - Crime to spank children?

Actually most of the parents that THINK they raise well balanced disciplined children, but never swatted their keister, are just reading their own press. They should ask the kids teachers.

There may be exceptions, but I sure never met 'em. Anyone that's been in a teaching role will tell you those folks always think "my little angel wouldnt do that" and they live in fantasyland.

Problem is you still cant discern the difference between a reasonable use of punishment vs abuse. It makes nice print to say 'you advocate hitting children?!' when we're talking about a swat on the rear... but it's typical of people of that ilk to use totally inapplicable terms that do not for a second correspond to reality.

 

We all know those types. But I think in most of those cases the child hasn't just not been spanked but hasn't been disciplined at all.

 

Your fabricated to order anecdotal evidence is worthless rob.

Why do you think some parents can raise well behaved children without hitting them and you find that you can't? You do agree that some parents can do that, right?

Stop trying to dodge the question rob, Develop some courage and integrity and answer the questions people put to you. I let you off answering a tough question earlier, You aren't about to get a second free pass.

I made it clear that i recognise the different levels of violence inflicted upon children, But also made it clear that i don't agree with any level of violence inflicted upon a child. I don't agree that any level could be considered "reasonable" because violence, at any level, Is a result of your inadequacies and you inability to get results any other way.

If you find yourself having to hit a child it is because you don't know how to do it any other way. So to make out that the parents who can get results without resorting to violence are in the wrong is frankly disgusting.

 

I guess most people in the known world dont know how to raise their kids and i guess the new age of parenting must work very well. This is why we have so many pill popping kids who go to pyschologists. Stox your argument and belief on this holds no grounds based on facts and im glad your sisters turned out well, but u must use a larger subset in a population and the larger subset in the population has been failing at this method because of the larger amounts of teenage crimes, early teenage preganancy's, and the divorce rates of our youth. There is definately alot less love in the air these days.

 

I've got Rob "you don't hit kids, they'll end up as sociopaths in straightjackets in school" Jones on ignore, so missed it. "You parents who think you love your kids (Ping), who think you're raising great kids (Rob), are deluding yourself. Your teachers hate your kids - beat them, and they'll be golden."

Yep, gotta love it. Life must be nice to reduce to such simplicities. Not like the American Pediatric Association has any understanding of the science behind any of this either, ya betcha'.

 

What facts? Your spurious assertions that "pill popping kids who go to pyschologists" [sic] are some how a result of parents who don't hit their kids? That's not a fact, it's an unsubstantiated piece of shit you just made up.

Why do you think some parents can raise well behaved children without hitting them and you (and/or others) find that you can't? You do agree that some parents can do that, right?

 

I had thirty+/- kids to work with, 1st thru 6th grade... having built a program that was dying and had almost zero membership. My relationship with the boys was genuine, and some on my best kids were originally my problem kids. One of those opted to stay with me and help with the boys after he passed eligible age to be one of them. We had a mutual friendship but they understood that they were expected to follow a code of behavior. They respected an authority figure for the first time in their life in some cases, but it wasnt a fear thing, it was respect. There's a difference.

I was working with a group called "Royal Ambassadors" (think "Baptist equiv of Boy Scouts") and had a better relationship with a lot of the kids than their parents did... but then unlike their parents I actually spent time with them, listened to them, and treated them like they had the sense to understand rules and follow them.

I don't for a second advocate some silly regimen of beating children into submission. Basically I advocate treating kids like they have a brain, and if you do that you follow through if you say not to do something and someone does it. The worst pains were with kids whose parents were in the ministry... the people who would say "Oh I never HIT my child, I reason with him". Busted one on of those on the butt twice before he hit the floor (I'd pulled him off a classmate), but he never slugged a kid in my class again either.

The people that think reasoning with a 2 yr old is a possibility cause a lotta problems for the people that have to deal with their little "angel" later.

My method worked, but it worked as a whole program, NOT just because physical discipline was a part of it. Take out the time spent talking and listening to them, spending a week at camp with them each year, camping trips, playing wallball with them, treating them like they matter... and you've wasted your time.

Most parents today are letting TV and video games raise the kids. Ignoring them is a helluvalot crueler than anything I ever did.

 

Of course he didn't. But did he refrain from doing it because;
A. He realised it was wrong
B. It resulted in someone 5 times his size hitting him. Something which would frankly stop anyone doing anything.

I'm not saying hitting kids doesn't make them comply, I'm saying it makes them comply for the wrong reasons. they don't comply through a desire to be good, be respectful or be well behaved. They comply through fear.

I wont insult your intelligence by asking the same question for a, what is it now, fourth time, I'll just remind you i'm still waiting for a reply.

 

The American Psychological Association strongly condemns its use, for the same reasons the American Pediatrics Association condemns it. People ask for "evidence," and "samplings, not subsets," then ignore those very things. This, from the Journal, Pediatrics (PDF):

No, it's not "opinion," but data. See, among other things, Table 2, p. 445.

 

Actually I've already made my point, stox, and by nature experience IS anecdotal. Then again I have had experience as a parent and I'm following a procedure thats been around a long time. You on the other hand have your belief that you are right, and the support of Northpoint who finds victimhood suits his purposes.

Raise your kids however you want when you get around to it, and if he wants to let his kids be raised by whatever fad the pediatric assoc is onto in any particular decade it's his call... and not my problem.

 

You are looking at certain kids who really dont need to be spanked. As in life when a person does something wrong they are punished, whether its serving jail time or paying a speeding ticket. Kids dont rationalize things the same way adults do. If a kid sees he can get away with a certain behavior then he will most likely keep taking advantage of the situation until someone disciplines him. I have seen many parents try to explain things to their children by treating them as adults, but knock knock stox, im sorry to inform you a 7 year old isnt an adult, and if he gets his kicks bugging someone or doing something wroong that can harm him later in life, all your feel goody-good talks will only cause that kid to laugh at you knowing he can do whatevert he wants . What will you do if a kid keeps tipping over dishes just for laughs? give him a hug??????????? or a talk.
Of course you would talk to him the first time and explain that this stuff costs money and the world doesnt live just for his amusement but if he keeps doing it (and that doesnt make him a psychopath) and you just let him go without even a slap on the butt then u got some serious issues here to deal with.

I was spanked and hit on my butt with the belt, and you know what?
I dont have any anto social behavor, i dont believe in voilence and i love my parents very much( my dad is my hero as he saved my life allready once when i was sick and dying). Your sisters must have been exceptionally good hearted people, but it doesnt mean they represent most kids. Most kids are brats by nature and that is perfectly ok for them to be brats as brats are usually very curious about the world, but it doesnt mean these brats can run wild and own the house.

Of course talking , communication, hugs and lots of love should be the part of any parental upbringing of any child but spanking has its place for discipline as well. Almost all my parents friends were spanked as children and most have gone on to get a very good education(mostly masters degrees), got married, raised a family and also have very normal children.

Just because u dont believe in something doesnt mean its right. Your fighting against hundreds of year of parenting and it is only recently that kids have started to become out of control. More unloved kids, more divorces, more suicides and more unselfishness. I understand that lack of discipline is only a small part of it but i have to say it is a part of it. Along with the lack of parental love, communication etc etc. To bring a kid up you need to be eclectic in the way you look at parenting and not just be dogmatic and say i will never spank my children. Absolutes never work in parenting.

Your right, i was spanked and hit as a kid, so i must be a raging lunitic. Maybe thats why im always baby sitting my brothers kids. My bro must be nuts for trusting a looney like me

tipping dishes over and breaking them today with no discipline will lead to holding up seven elevens later .

Ronjones, you hit the nail on the head yet again, if the pediatric association turns around tomorrow and gives stats from some politically motivated study that shows spanking is good stox will probably support it. The best experience is self experience, not some study that you barely even know where it was done from.

 

Always hysterical to see a certain type of non-thinking folk cry about a lack of evidence, only to leap back to stone-aged views on things and raw insults once the evidence is presented.

I don't eschew smacking my son because the Pediatric Association, the APA or any other association said not to. These and other organizations simply provide ample, statistically rigorous studies, based in the real world, that leads them to a position statement against spanking and other forms of corporal punishment.

I don't hit my kid because I love him, and feel there are better ways to achieve raising him properly than inflicting violence on him. He's a beautiful little being, excels in school and in his social relationships, and he's beyond respectful of others' needs - he's achieved a compassionate view of life that is remarkable for its sensitivity and acuteness. He's the first on the playlot to pick up little kids hurt, the first in classroom to help another flagging over some kind of academic problem (he's a bright kid). This wholesome view towards others is now native to him - in distinction to Rob's torturedly sarcastic view of kids raised without violence as "little angels."

I would say it's because he was taught respect, boundaries, worth. No need for a "belt on the ass" to do what Rob has attempted to argue, namely, to assume the child has a brain. Never knew a brain to require violence to understand something, though some primordial grunt might wish to stick to that in the absence of effort, intelligent thought, or conscious choice.

That we've two members who resort to the disgusting and ignorant insinuations on display here isn't new - a certain type of non-thinking person will always do that, because to consider there might be another way is to threaten the very core of their being.

Evolve.

 

Gee, guess we hit a nerve on Mr I still cry about my unhappy childhood. You're an adult now. Get over it.

You and Stox have both bandied the word "disgusting" liberally, but as always you hit and then cry foul.
The culture of victimhood is wearing thin... as is your suggestion all who disagree are "non-thinking". This imaginary brilliance isnt as apparent as you think, and constantly claiming it doesnt make it so. Wait for someone *else* to suggest you're bright, the self nomination thing isnt credible. What a steaming pile of sanctimonious self-aggrandizing horse shit.

Suggesting those of us that volunteer our time to work with children dont love them is just a further example of your inability to observe data and draw a realistic conclusion.

As for the study by pediatricians...
Being able to treat measles doesnt make 'em an authority on parenting any more than being a gynecologist makes somebody a good source for dating advice or being a plane mechanic makes someone a good pilot.

 

My older brother used to beat me up a lot when I was real young, can't remember all of it but I do have the scars to prove it (big scar on my eyebrow from hitting it off the side of the couch). Divorced parents, rough family situations where they were usually never around so there was little oversight. But at one point he joined the wrestling team and left me alone. Why so? Because he knew what pain felt like, finally, and realized how wrong it was to inflict it on others just for fun.

Pain is most certainly necessary at a young age to feel because it is inevitable that they'll seek to inflict it on others without first knowing how it feels. Which explains my little cousin who isn't so little but very immature for lack of parenting. He hits people, won't leave them alone and get this, when his older brother tries to put him in his place his parents yell at him. Almost like they want him to grow up to be a failure.

As I predicted years back, he'd have a real rough time in middle and high-school. He did recently, I don't know the whole story but his teachers had a talk with his parents and he now is starting to act better! Must be getting disciplined!

Until you set limits, for a kid, nothing's off limits. When this type of thinking goes into the real world they're in for a real hurting. At some point you're gonna feel pain, that's for sure.

 

Nate, this is my point: Between hitting a child to teach, and doing nothing, or doing useless things (like "yelling"), is a whole host of things that do work, that don't involve hurting the child. It's worked for us, anyway.

*****

I see Rob is up to his usual stone-age ignorance. The only victim I see here is one who has fallen so completely into ignorance that he cannot resort to anything but idiocy and lies. The only "nerve" hit was to have the balls to say something he'd best not say in person, namely that my son, anyone's son, is necessarily a sociopath ready for a straightjacket because I won't beat him. This, and outright lies ("Suggesting those of us that volunteer our time to work with children don't love them " - since no one ever said this; "just a further example of your inability to observe data and draw a realistic conclusion." - of course, crying a river for evidence, provided the evidence, and running for cover once presented, well - pathetic, as usual) Typical of web rangers, and little else. Grow up, Rob. You won't melt in a puddle of tears if you attempt to make a point without reliance on saying disgusting horseshit like:

"Disgusting," because it implies kids like mine and others will grow up to be sociopaths; "horseshit," because (1) though it's an insipid attempt at a dodge, swatting a kid's ass to inflict pain cannot be anything other than violence; (2) plenty of people who have kids do equate beating a kid's ass with violence; (3) plenty of those kids are not the kids "teachers want to put in a straight jacket."

As to "non-thinking," yes, reliance on something "because it's always been done that way," is a categorically stupid way of proceeding in life. It might give a nice cocoon to provide some sort of validation, but it doesn't deal with anything.

Ignorance may be your bliss, but it doesn't amount to a hill of dogshit, Rob.

 

Wow, Somebody's Inner Child Missed His Nap
As usual Northpointe leaves lots of room on the high road... but be sure to remember he's the one that argues "intelligently" (or he'll have to remind us AGAIN). LOL

Starting to look a tad like a personal attack there Northpointe. Does it beat having a point in your world? Maybe you can find us a study indicating intelligence is proven by stringing together personal insults, or maybe you could just curb your temper before posting. ~ Thanks

 

BTW, Judge Judy sucks.

 

i can see your point. I don't expect everyone to spank their kids, as long as they're disciplined. It's no doubt different for every family so what works for you may not work for me or him.

My main outrage in the beginning of this thread was the way it was being portrayed on Judge Judy as some terrifyingly horrible practice, and ultimately the notion that it's illegal.

It's becoming more and more obvious the way the government and media is putting a bubble around children (albeit the wrong bubble) so much so that older men now stay the hell away from'em in fear they might be the next guy on "How to Catch a Predator".



well i have to go, take it easy people don't all kill each other at once


take turns!

 

Does your kid play sports or take martial arts? I am gonna assume so and honestly it's none of my business so I won't ask anyone specifically.
if so, they are entered into an environment that can and will cause them physical pain at some point. You do it anyway because they will learn lessons and because it will make them stronger. They learn not to be afraid of violence. They learn to see physical power for what it is. They even harness it for themselves. If you understand all these things and so does your child, you may very well never have to spank them. You instead are letting the field or the dojo spank them.

 

This goes back to the point I tried to make earlier, that it isn't the physical pain that causes the real damage(unless it is severe enough to leave long lasting effects), it's the psychological damage caused by having your physical well being threatened by someone who you are supposed to trust and who is supposed to be loving and protecting you. I think that's why the manner in which the spankings are given are of huge importance. But honestly, if there are better ways available -- and most children oriented organizations that have done studies say there are -- then those other tools should be used.