There is something unique about Digital Point's Copywriting Forum...

I'm new here. Been looking around for about a week now, and I've noticed something unique about this place.

Of all the marketing forums I've read and/or participated in, I've never seen a copywriting section that was so skewed toward content and away from direct response.

Does anyone here know why? Is no one here selling product? Is it all about articles and site content, and adsense and all that?

Does no one here have a product they want to make money with?

 

Hello,
Welcome to DP.
There is a different section for Buy and sell.
Check them out where one can buy sell their services.
Thank you.
Aakash Shah

 

I think there's easier ways to sell real products than with articles.

 

I don't think anyone was talking about selling product via articles. I was talking about selling with sales letters. And I think everyone else was talking about making money with "content."

 

Hello MontelloMarketing,

Welcome to this forum.

Yes is my answer to your observation – this forum is skewed towards selling via ‘content’ than with direct response. My own observation over the time is that most (vast, vast majority) members here are not aware of this phenomenon called DIRECT RESPONSE MARKETING.

You see, every forum has its background and culture. So the culture I see here (among most members) is that of ‘contents’ which of course is grossly misunderstood and mean many things to many people. Unfortunately, believe about selling via ‘contents’ is being applied on the “Copywriting forum’ on DP here.

However, unlike a forum like the Warrior Forum, the webmasters there fully understand and appreciates the power of direct response/direct marketing sales letter and how it’s the most important secret to drive massive sales both online and offline.

In fact, unknown to most people here, direct response marketing is currently behind major sales online at this moment. Not just some grammatical correctness articles or strong ‘contents’ we often bandied about here.

Without any shadow of doubt, well researched, greatly worded, well-structured articles have their pride of place in the market. But blatantly referring them as “copywriting” is most erroneous – as often see people do here. That is why most webmasters here are still missing greater opportunity to grow their businesses – THOSE MORE sales only direct response sale letter can help them achieve.

Another problem here is that most webmasters have ingrained in their minds that ‘content’ is cheap and must be cheap. So if you’re expecting to someone to pay you, say $10,000 per sales letter plus 5%-15% percentage on gross sales, I believe this forum can only produce a negligible persons.

The culture here is vastly tilted towards ‘contents’ that are sold based on word count and so-called pure breed native English speakers!

So here is my advice for you.

You have to do lots of education here. I will also occasionally come on board to make my own input where necessary. I can tell you this: Many people on this forum are advanced, open and warmth. But information with proof will do the magic. Then hopefully, we can start discussing more about real GREAT Copywriting methods, instead of ‘contents’ as we have it now.

Cheers!

Patrick U.
PS: I visited your site. I love it.

 

Patrick,

I think our observations are the same as it pertains to DP.

I don't completely agree with you on the definition of "copywriting." I believe content writing IS copywriting. It's just completely 180 degrees from "Direct Response Copywriting."

If education is needed, I do all I can. If the people here at DP ignore direct marketing, then they're leaving a ton of money on the table.

And unlike "content," which is quite inexpensive. DP copywriting is salesmanship in print. It compels people to buy. It almost dares them not to buy. It's all about honest persuasion. And it does cost a bit more.

But what is cost? If you spend $500 putting articles on your website and that $500 makes you a few thousand dollars in the next few months, that's fine.

Then... you have to keep paying for more articles to keep rankings, and continue to drive traffic.

But you could spend just 4 or 5 thousand dollars on a sales letter and make hundreds of thousands of dollars this year. I see it happen weekly.

Content drives traffic and creates stickiness, in an attempt (a hope really) enough traffic MIGHT lead to a sale or 3. Sales letters on the other hand can be like atm machines.

You put up a great sales letter written by a great copywriter and drive traffic to it (free and paid traffic), refine it to maximise conversion, and if you have a good product to sell... man o man... it's almost like printing money.

Plus, you put them up once. Make your money, then move on. Another product... another sales letter. It's like perpetual motion when done correctly.

Well, there you go. I guess that was lesson number one

 

Hello brother,

Thanks for your fast response.

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I don't completely agree with you on the definition of "copywriting." I believe content writing IS copywriting. It's just completely 180 degrees from "Direct Response Copywriting."
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Sorry if it seems I didn’t get across my thoughts properly. Really, I didn’t mean to say that copywriting isn’t content. No. That wasn’t my thought at all.

But rather, I meant to say that most people here on DP erroneously believe that ‘content’ are those cheap articles they’re buying and nothing else. And even when some require sales letter they think they're doing you a big FAVOR when they proffer ‘better than article fees' and want you to run for it like a dog after a fleshy bone.

I agree what all other things we’ve said. We are in the same boat man.

 

Content writing is NOT the same thing as copywriting... the term for the most part is just completely misused here. Copywriting is writing "copy" for the purposes of selling, marketing, advertising or publicity. It's to get the reader to act in some way, whether blatantly asking them to or not (such as copy on your home page, sales letters, product descriptions, etc.... all with an aim of getting people to use a product or service, buy something, come back often, etc.).

"Content" on the other hand is informational in nature and doesn't require, or even ask, for any kind of action from a reader. A variety of things fall into the "content" category... articles, forum posts, etc. Content also has nothing to do with sales. Yes, it can make a site "sticky" so people will come again to read more. But the vast majority of the time, it's not in place asking them to do anything. It also appears on sites not trying to sell anything in the first place. Just because you can monetize content, that doesn't make it "copy."

The problem is that you have generic content writers who think they can writer "copy", because they honestly don't understand that there's a seperate art there, and you have copywriters who assume that makes them more general "writers", so they classify anything they attempt to write as copy. They're two distinct areas of writing, and while they can be found in the same places, they're not the same thing.

 

Jenn,

I think we're splitting hairs here, and I'm not trying to be contradictory, but I disagree on the terms.

Copywriting is NOT just DR copywriting. There are many other forms of copywriting. One example is in news. The writers who write news for the networks, are not always journalists. Some are copywriters. Copywriters write press releases... press kits, and speeches too. And yes, even while I consider content writing to be NOTHING LIKE DR copywriting, it is still copywriting.

Everything else you say, IMO is true. content copywriters often think they can do DR. So do speech writers and even copywriters who work for big advertising firms, writing slogans and branding. They all think they can do DR. 99% can not. But... that doesn't mean they're not copywriters. They're just not DR copywriters.

 

I'm well aware of PR writing, including all of the examples you mentioned, as I'm a PR professional. That's my primary area of expertise, and I can tell you there's a definite difference between that and copywriting. You're trying to use "copywriting" as a broader term than it simply is.

 

Wow... I can't believe there's debate on this. I've never seen it before on any other board. There is a clear difference between DR copywriters and content copywriters, but they're both copywriters.

As for PR copywriters, this is from the dictionary. (note: 3 different dictionaries have pretty much this same definition.)

cop‧y‧writ‧er  /ˈkɒpiˌraɪtər/
Pronunciation[kop-ee-rahy-ter] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
a writer of copy, esp. for advertisements or publicity releases.
[Origin: 1910–15; copy + writer]

—Related forms
cop‧y‧writ‧ing, noun
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

Note that while it says "esp. for advertisement or publicity releases," the "esp" tells us it's not limited to those.

I happen to know quite a few people in publicity and a couple who write content. They both also realize what they do is nothing like what I do... but it is still copywriting. You may consider that a broader definition, but it actually IS part of the actual definition.

 

The fact is that articles (as in "content") are not "copy". It's a very common misconception here, and the reason I'm debating it is because I'm tired of the term being used too broadly to cover nearly everything, when that's not the truth of the matter... especially when it leads far too often to people believing $5 per page is standard in copywriting, and not understanding the difference between professionals and amateurs who simply think they know how to write everything because they follow basic formatting templates.

I've already said that copywriting can apply to publicity. As to why they tacked "releases" onto "publicity" is beyond me (especially consider a "publicity release" isn't even a form of writing - it's a press release or news release ... just shows how accurate that is). As a professional in the industry I'm telling you press releases aren't "copywriting", nor are some of the other examples you gave. Do copywriters often offer the service and stick their label on it? Yes. They often don't know what they're doing in a PR sense though. The same thing applies when you have general content writers calling themselves "copywriters" offering everything from PR writing to marketing copy / sales letters, when in fact they don't know the first thing about copywriting.

 

I'm done with this. I've said my piece far too many times now.

All copy is not SALES COPY. But that doesn't make it not copy.

But you seem to have it a different way in your head. That's fine. Go with that. I'm too busy writing sales copy to give a damn.

 

Please don't stop the debate. I have to admit, it is good reading and giving me quite a bit to think about.

 

Charisse,

I don't know much more to say. No offense to Jenn, but she's just wrong. Her narrow definition of copywriting flies in the face of facts.

There is a reason the word "copywriter" is always preceded by a qualifyer.

Content copywriter
SEO copywriter
Traditional agency copywriter
Direct response copywriter
PR Copywriter


And not to mention white papers and corporate correspondence. I hate to piss anyone off, but the people who write those are copywriters. If you do that for a living and want to make up a title for yourself, fine. But it doesn't change the facts.

Newsletters are written by copywriters.
Instruction manuals are written by copywriters.

None of them like DR copywriting.

 

Okay, I had to jump in here.

Montello, I understand your question, but I also respect Jenn's answer.
See, I've done it all: I just finished a cover article for a respected industry magazine (content writing), creating a corporate overview for a luxury yacht builder, a white paper aimed at CIOs and CEOs, and a "killer" DM sales letter for a product over the past ten days. Plus, I've done catalog copy and press releases in the past two weeks, and am co-authoring a book with a well-respected person in the field of marketing..

Is this all copywriting? Yes (except the book, that's "nonfiction writing"), because the writing is aimed to create a response in the people reading it. Jenn is right.

Is it all direct marketing? No, because direct marketing as an industry has become known as "sales letters that include a great headline and subheads, compelling copy, and a clear call to action" in many circles.

So, this forum, in the broadest sense, is copywriting. It doesn't focus on marketing of products, although certainly many who post here have done this type of copywriting.

And yes, many of the requests for writing are for articles. I noticed this too. I rarely write articles anymore, for the simple reason that they don't pay enough. The cover article I wrote only paid $950, but that included getting 10 expert interviews, and three weeks of dedicated effort. Yes, it's nice getting a byline, but "product writing" lets me earn ten times more.

You posed a great question, though. I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on it, as well.

 

Sorry, but instruction manuals are written by technical writers, not copywriters.

I would never let a sales guy write a technical/user publication.

 

sigh...

Not all manuals are written by tech guys. Especially non-technical manuals. The manual that tells my kid how to use her new fisher price tape recorder, is not being written by a tech writer.

And no one is saying that a "sales" guy would be writing your manual.

That's my point. All copywriters aren't "sales guys."

But listen... You all have an entirely different view of these things than the rest of the world. That's cool.

I'm going to go quiet now. This thread is getting quite tedious.

 

It's pretty simple. Copywriting involves sales and marketing.

Draw your own conclusions.

If a copywriter interviews some people and writes copy for the evening news, he's not copywriting. He's writing news.

I'm not sure what the debate is about. Don't confuse a title with an action.

 

Oh as to why there's not more talk about direct response copywriting, it's because there's only about 2 of us here--I'm sure--that have done it or know about it.

The forum is mainly being used for article writing questions/chat/solicitations.