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Discussion in 'Publisher Network' started by slava, Oct 22, 2006.

  1. SonicReducer

    SonicReducer Peon

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    #41
    You are the exact reason most people don't advertise on content networks.
    SEMrush
     
    SonicReducer, Oct 23, 2006 IP
    SEMrush
  2. kkibak

    kkibak Peon

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    #42
    Why was the bid fake? He said himself that he was actually paying for the clicks.

    I also apologize for taking such a harsh tone but your reply offended me.

    Just to be clear I'll repeat that this isn't something I'd do myself. I just think that the majority of folks here are looking at it from one side and not the other.

    If those advertisers were willing to pay over a dollar a click, as they clearly were since they increased their bids after he did, it is actually this guy posting here who has been played for a fool by them this whole time.

    In a perfectly efficient market all profits are ultimately driven to 0. Therefore if this were perfectly efficient, they would all be bidding the absolute maximum amount that would not result in a loss. The fact that they were willing to increase their bids 1000% shows that the market (in this situation) was nowhere near efficient. The original poster here actually got a glimpse of what the more efficient level might look like.
     
    kkibak, Oct 23, 2006 IP
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  3. www.AmCy.org

    www.AmCy.org American CyberSpace®

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    #43
    If you believe in free market principles then you wouldn't write the above.

    The Internet is still has A LOT of growing to do. And a lot of big, rich companies still aren't using PPC campaigns properly. In time, the RPC will increase for the original poster's niche naturally! But artificially inflating the RPC is simply bad business, and bad for all the players involved.

    Patience is a virtue. If you have no patience, then start a website related to a lucrative niche and rake in the dough. Sounds simplistic, but I'm sticking to it.
     
    www.AmCy.org, Oct 23, 2006 IP
  4. kkibak

    kkibak Peon

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    #44

    I don't mean to break this out because I feel it's lame when others do, but I graduated from UC with honors in Economics (I have a degree in economics), and I can comfortably say that I do believe in free market principles, and I wrote the above. You should do some reading, because you are way off base.

    I strongly believe in free market principles, and I also believe in MARKET FAILURES; among them monopoly, and potentially oligopoly caused by barriers to entry (the latter being what we see here). The price discrepancy we are seeing here is based on a knowledge barrier that is common in high tech fields. The issue is just that firms are new to PPC advertising and many of them do not understand how it works. If they did, the lack of efficiency we see here wouldn't exist.

    Just as an FYI all "free market" means is that pricing is determined by supply / demand without govt intervention.

    Kris
     
    kkibak, Oct 23, 2006 IP
  5. slava

    slava Peon

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    #45
    Folks, this is exactly the point that I'm making, I didn't force anyone to raise their bid, it is not as if I'm bidding in an auction to force tehm to bid higher. 2nd and third position are available, however those come with less inventory. They want that inventory and are willing to pay a lot more for it then what they are paying now.

    Look at it from the publishers view. Lets say someone is selling cell phones, and they are paying $0.10/click, theres only a few content sites that they target but they are getting one customer from every 10 clicks. Thus they get a customer for $1. It is very important for them to continue getting customers from that sites, because they are profiting a lot from them. They can ultimately spend 30x more and still profit.

    You as a publisher spend a lot of time in development of your site and marketing of your site to get high quality traffic that is interested in buying sell phones. But for all your hard work your not getting your rightful comission in the sale. Your getting $0.10/click, when you should be getting 30 times more. If you start advertising your own cell phone site, and get traffic from your sites you are taking the quality traffic from the advertisers that "abused" the PPC market by lowballing your quality traffic. They raise their prices, and you go into a bidding war untill they reach a point where they are paying $3/click and decide they wont raise prices higher because it will not be profitable for them. Then you lower your bid so they get the traffic. Now the free market economy is working for you, it is not unethical to push somethign to work your way, in my opinion it was unethical for the advertisers to buy the traffic at $0.10/click when its true market value was 30x higher. Now that the true market value was established it is maintained at a standard, and the publisher reeps the benefits of developing a quality site and marketing it for high quality traffic.
     
    slava, Oct 23, 2006 IP
  6. slava

    slava Peon

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    #46
    Free market says nothing against intervention from competition. If I start advertising as competition against existing advertisers I am only following the basic rules of free market economies and laizzes faire.
     
    slava, Oct 23, 2006 IP
  7. www.AmCy.org

    www.AmCy.org American CyberSpace®

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    #47
    I believe you and I think that's terrific.

    But I would never subscribe to the premise that the proper remedy for the lack of efficiency is to create artificial competition.
     
    www.AmCy.org, Oct 23, 2006 IP
  8. www.AmCy.org

    www.AmCy.org American CyberSpace®

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    #48
    The true market value is whatever the market will bear. The advertisers are using the system exactly as it was intended. It is your arbitrary opinion that the clicks should be worth 30 times more.

    Now, if you present your methodology to the G Adwords Team, and they say it's A-OK, then I will be quiet and eat my hat.
     
    www.AmCy.org, Oct 23, 2006 IP
  9. kkibak

    kkibak Peon

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    #49
    Wow those be some big ole wurds. Hope I can follow you :rolleyes:

    How is it ARTIFICIAL COMPETITION WHEN HE WAS F***ING PAYING FOR THE CLICKS? JEEZ GET WITH THE PROGRAM.
     
    kkibak, Oct 23, 2006 IP
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  10. kkibak

    kkibak Peon

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    #50
    Unfortunately for you, what the G AdWords Team says is "A-OK" is not at all related to the "principles of free markets."

    "The true market value is whatever the market will bear. The advertisers are using the system exactly as it was intended. It is your arbitrary opinion that the clicks should be worth 30 times more."

    You are completely contradicting yourself. You say that the true market value is whatever the market will bear, but then you say the guy was "breaking the market" (or some such rubbish) by pushing the ppc up to a level that they STILL WERE ABLE TO BEAR.

    It isn't his "arbitrary opinion" that the clicks should be worth 30 times more. The advertisers CLEARLY AGREE WITH HIM. It is their opinion as well, or they would LOWER THEIR BIDS.


    We're in agreement.

    Also, the mentioning of my background in economics was ONLY to emphasize how foolish it was for you to say that "if you believe in free market principles then you wouldn't write the above."
     
    kkibak, Oct 23, 2006 IP
  11. www.AmCy.org

    www.AmCy.org American CyberSpace®

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    #51
    You should read more carefully. He wrote:

    You are basing your argument on that? Some clicks? How many is that? You don't know, and neither do I. 2 out of 500? That's your justification?
     
    www.AmCy.org, Oct 23, 2006 IP
  12. www.AmCy.org

    www.AmCy.org American CyberSpace®

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    #52
    Once again, back to the sophistry. The fail to grasp the central point here. If the 2 competitors knew that the third competitor was in fact a shill bidder, then it changes everything, and that's why Team AdWords wouldn't allow it.

    That's why I, as an AdWords advertiser, opted out of the content network many months ago. And I know that there are many other DP'er who have opted out as well. Because I prefer to play in a real and fair marketplace, not an artificial one made up of click arbitrage, MFA's and shill bids.

    As always, IMO.
     
    www.AmCy.org, Oct 23, 2006 IP
  13. ColinR

    ColinR Guest

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    #53
    Slava - kudos. Personally IMO this is no different than being at an auction raising my hand and yes I may very well have purchased an item for an inflated amount. I personally see nothing unethical about this at all. They are counter bidding to yours, whats unethical about that? Nothing IMO. Again kudos
     
    ColinR, Oct 23, 2006 IP
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  14. www.AmCy.org

    www.AmCy.org American CyberSpace®

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    #54
    uh-huh...and if you were at an auction and in a bidding war for a priceless Tiffany lamp, and in the middle of the auction someone whispered in your ear that the person you're bidding against is in fact a shill bidder with no real interest in the lamp, you would be OK with that? Or would you feel that the auction is in fact a sham, and take your business elsewhere? Hmmm.... I should hope you would choose the latter.
     
    www.AmCy.org, Oct 23, 2006 IP
  15. kkibak

    kkibak Peon

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    #55
    You are the most self contradictory person I've ever seen. Here you try to criticize me for making a quick judgment and just a few words later you are saying "2 out of 500."

    Just give up already--you're not going to make a losing argument win, especially not like this.
     
    kkibak, Oct 23, 2006 IP
  16. chatmasta

    chatmasta Peon

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    #56
    Slava, I'm curious...on your publisher account, do you block your own ads from showing on your content site?
     
    chatmasta, Oct 23, 2006 IP
  17. www.AmCy.org

    www.AmCy.org American CyberSpace®

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    #57
    With you, I have already given up. I'm waiting for someone else to present a truly cogent argument that can justify the action of the original poster.
     
    www.AmCy.org, Oct 23, 2006 IP
  18. slava

    slava Peon

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    #58
    No I do not, because if I would then that would take my bid out of the draw and would lower the PPC of the advertisers, If someone clicks an ad on my own site then I'm still making a part of the investment back with publisher earnings so I consider that a marginal cost in making the system work.

    Let me clarify that by paying for some clicks, I meant the ones that were clicks on my own ads. I don't pay for clicks on other peoples ads I pay when someone clicks an ad that I am advertising.

    I am 100% in compliance with both YPN and Adsense terms. There are no rules against advertising a site in a similar niche that you own. In fact many Yahoo Search Marketing advertisers place YPN code on their page, and many Googgle Adwords customers place Adsense on their pages. This is no different.
     
    slava, Oct 23, 2006 IP
  19. kkibak

    kkibak Peon

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    #59
    ... so the 'assumption' i made was perfectly valid AmCy
     
    kkibak, Oct 23, 2006 IP
  20. SEOdir.net

    SEOdir.net Banned

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    #60
    hello, what is niche ?
     
    SEOdir.net, Nov 1, 2006 IP