I should disclose that by the time I was 14 I was fully an evangelist in the lineage of the Assembly of God - having left home, sketchily attended school and lived in the foothills behind Ventura, believing in the imminence of the Second Coming. I am familiar with the religious sentiments expressed - having been one who "spoke in tongues," and "prophesied," and obtained a "spiritual healing" to any of a host of physical injuries by the "laying on of hands." (In quotes, as these were my beliefs then, abandoned now, long ago). Pastor Kalnin's comments were more political, but no more extreme, than any number of sermons I received, and that was about three decades ago. I have experienced firsthand the accounts of many religious conservatives, who very much see precisely what Pastor Kalnin exhorts his followers to believe - that this "clash of civilizations" is, in fact, divinely ordained, and to be slavishly followed accordingly. This isn't hyperbole on my part, and it is exactly what gives me pause. In my experience, all of it is quite real, and quite extensive.
Ah, good old Goldwater. C-Span was running old GOP conventions last week before the RNC started. I watched the speech where Goldwater delivered the famous "extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice..." line. What has happened to conservatism since then? Has it been hijacked? There has to be a lot of people like me who may otherwise vote for republicans, even fiscal conservatives, if it wasn't for their pandering to the religious right. Even McCain has said bad things about Falwell before embarking on this campaign, and Falwell's views represented a lot of people's so he was basically denouncing a large group in his party. But now even McCain has given in to them. I was still a bit on the fence before McCain made his VP pick, but there's no way in hell I could vote for him now.
I wouldn't have likely been able to vote for McCain, though there was a time it was more likely. But I agree with your assessment - I really do get the sense of McCain's 11th hour end run pick of Sarah Palin as an attempt to stem a revolt within the party. And I, too, wonder what has happened to Goldwater conservatism, though I strongly suspect the cause.
If it helps... read the following quote from a religious sounding politician: If we apply your earlier statements it would seem to preclude you from voting for him. Seems he has an awfully convoluted idea about mixing his faith and government.
With no disrespect to anyone of faith, I came to the reject the notion of a Creator distinct from humanity, but so wholly full of human foibles, as ridiculous; from Voltaire, "If God did not Exist, it would be necessary for Man to Invent Him"; I marvel at nature itself, and do not require a divinity to have created it; I reject the notion of duality and selfishness endemic to much of western religion - behave "properly" today, in order to achieve some kind of reward tomorrow - as part of why the world is in the mess it is in - we fail to see heaven or hell is here and now, literally, now, and we are not apart from the world we live in, and to do right by one's fellow man is its own reward, nothing "stored up" for paradise after. We were not handed dominion over earth, the sky is godless, and the universe doesn't care. It's about time that we care, in my book, and that goes for this entire globe, all its inhabitants, of every species. Some of what happened, in thinking on it.
Thanks. I'm familiar with Washington's final address. Much of this was discussed recently. I rather like another guy's idea: Anytime religion is joined to the purpose of the state, I'd say, we invite a conflagration that can potentially destroy both. This is my principal beef with the notion of "divine mission" and the religious rightist political movement.
********* (Sorry - couldn't resist. Thanks, Lightless. A nice quote). -And outta here, exhausted. Night all.
I'm a big fan of TJ, but he isnt contradicting Washington's view, he's talking about not allowing Church authorities to usurp governmental powers, a very real possibility in the early days of our country. They werent that far from the time Cotton Mather held trials in Salem, and in England there had been centuries of dispute between church and state authorities... the death of Archbishop Beckett, the issues between Henry the 8th vs the pope, etc. Marginally related, but not the same topic. Washington suggests a government that derives greatness from a religious principle, while Jefferson says don't let the preacher arrest somebody for impiety. No conflict there. ============ [Leaving this up since it was here, but noticed that above here I responded to wrong Jefferson quote. Addressed that in next post. ======== Stuff below this point is still OK (for me anyway) I still think that based on ... you'd not have voted for George Washington if you'd seen his Farewell address before the election. Just saying it pays to temper such thoughts with the knowledge that while not all men of faith are great national leaders, plenty of great national leaders have been men of faith.
Oops,,, i'll add that I know more than one Jefferson quote apparently, as I just responded to one other than the one you posted. So much for reading too quickly. Oops. Still isnt in opposition to the GW quote, but it goes the other direction... he's suggesting the civil magistrate (ie: our govt) stay outta the business of *telling* people their beliefs and opinions. We cant pass a law telling you to believe in God or face 10 yrs in prison for violating same. I dont get the impression GW was actually doing that, but if you do, then dont vote for George Washington. He'll still be on Mount Rushmore of course.
A majority of Americans oppose both abortion and same sex marriage. Obama did a stint as a community organizer and was a State Legislator. He big break was that his opponents went up in flames in his 2004 Senate Race and he gave the keynote address at the Democratic National Convention. Really not much in the way of experience. Biden has been around a while, But he never has had a real job and is out of touch with America. Biden also represents the second smallest state is the US and the population of Deleware is only 843,000 people.
Back on - yes - lurking. Rob, I'd have to disagree with you here. Jefferson's concern was the imposition of religion on the people by the state. This is specifically what his authorship of the Virginia statute for Religious Freedom was dedicated to. I think the following is very important: Civil magistrate - i.e., the state - intruding its powers into the field of opinion as posing an undue weight of authority on the religious notions of the citizenry: This is very much in line with his famous letter, and authorship of the notion of, "a wall of separation" between religion and state. Don't get me wrong - none of this is about the private faith of anyone, state official or private citizen. This is squarely about the rise of the religious right in politics, and the imputation of some kind of divine imprimatur on political action. "God wants us to fight this war." I find that dangerous as hell. Pulled me back in - but cashed, for real, now. Tomorrow is an air show, first one for the lad, and pop's gotta be up and frisky tomorrow. Night all. Lightless - thanks, brother, humbling. We're all searching, and I've no desire but to die thinking my time here was worth it, in contributions made.
Not sure most oppose it in case of rape, though, which is why I call her position extreme. I haven't really seen stats on how people feel on same sex marriage - and, again, lots of different things, here. Oppose it? Don't really care? Believe it's the federal government's job to declare only a man and a woman may be legally married? Would forbid same sex partners from obtaining benefits normally given out to hetero couples? Etc. Will chat on the rest tomorrow. 'Night.
LOL, Northpoint, i assumed you were responding to my error onj the Jefferson quote so I left it up there and put a post below it. Sorry for the buggyride, I had no way to stop you. Read my followup when you get back. I gotta crash at some point myself. Y'all have a good nite.
In the case of abortion, i think we should focus on preventing the conditions and situations that lead to unwanted pregnancies. If there is never an unwanted pregnancy, the issue of abortion disappears. There should be a focus on spreading awareness on this matter. Netherlands has the lowest rates of abortion even though it's legal there. It's because of widespread contraceptive use. Abortion in Context: United States and Worldwide http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/ib_0599.html You have contributed your share to the thoughtfulness and thought provokingness of this forum at least.
Bill Gates isn't running for President of the Free World, and as for his software, it does have some flaws. I would trust Sarah Palin with one my Ebay affiliate sites, but I don't trust her to lead policy making. It's not 1776 anymore where we are just feeling things out. The unfortunate irony is, even though I disagree with his party and his politics, I think that John Mccain is more than capable to be President, and if he were to win the election I do not think he would falter in the areas of national security. I have a lot of respect for him as a veteran, and as a dedicated public servant, as I do for his entire family. One has to wonder where the hell have the Republicans been for the last 8 years? All of a sudden they have all these ideas, and are supposed to be the new and improved progressive party...then why didn't they help out Bush? He has the lowest approval rating since Rosanne Bar sang the National Anthem. How come none of them fought for change when one of their own has been hosting the dance since 2000? Some of what I hear seems to be convenient for the election yet not a reflection of the last 35 years. So I base my decision on the person, and the team that I believe the most based on what I have seen, not on what they are now saying. Some base their decisions on fear, and some even prejudice, but when it all comes down to it, we will have to live with this decision for 4 years. Once all the Magazine covers die down, and we get down to business, there is a lot of work to be done . Give me the one that has the best interest of the country in his heart, and not just in his speech.