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The return of Slavery

Discussion in 'Copywriting' started by Kraven2, Jun 12, 2010.

  1. Blue Star Ent.

    Blue Star Ent. Well-Known Member

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    #141

    No, I do not think that. Plus, I did not think you were "defending" anything. I thought you were just stating facts. If you read my post again, you will find I agree with you, but also wish for better situations for all concerned.


    Again, I did not think you did.



    I believe I understand it fairly well. I have been in that situation. I have found that certain people actually want to pay more for their service or product. It makes them look good to their friends and enemies when they say they paid twice as much as they could have. :)


    There are all types of people in the world.
    SEMrush
     
    Blue Star Ent., Jun 30, 2010 IP
    SEMrush
  2. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #142
    While I usually do not answer a question with a question, this time I will, as I am sincerely interested in your reply.

    Why do you think sweatshops were abolished in most of the western world? After all it is just business right?

    Over to you.
     
    Kraven2, Jun 30, 2010 IP
  3. gvannorman

    gvannorman Well-Known Member

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    #143
    Why were sweatshops abolished in the Western World?

    My response is this. Sweatshops were abolished not because of the pay. They were abolished because of the dangerous work conditions. The name should say it all. Sweatshop. These were hot buildings where the workers had no rights and could not get out.
     
    gvannorman, Jun 30, 2010 IP
  4. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #144
    This part, is what I wanted to read. In a sense this applies here as well.

    Look at the slave wages, then look at the requirements
    Some even demand full time availability

    In regards to "dangerous work conditions" that is exactly what underpayment of a workforce leads to.

    I may not be there just yet, but it is going that way if we let it, and thanks to the global nature of the web it won't be solved this easily, unless we regulate and educate ourselves, and all writers willing to learn.
     
    Kraven2, Jun 30, 2010 IP
  5. dyadvisor

    dyadvisor Peon

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    #145
    There are some smart people here. I can not take an ounce of credit for the way they think, I am just happy that they are seeing that there is opportunity if you seek it from the right source.

    Now I am going to look at this from a business viewpoint. Simply it is the law of supply and demand. There are millions too many content writers at the bottom end with a dwindling demand. So that with the conditions above bring what could be conceived as cannibalism. Poor writers taking the food out of the mouth of their fellow workers. This is a step back in humanity, especially as the vise tightens.

    However most writers are not professional enough to open the doors of internet professional service businesses. They desperately want more clients, but that takes skilled writers, who then receive professional wages.
    }
    So at the supply end, the excess of low pay, cutthroat unskilled & uncaring writers are scattering for scraps.The red sea is closing into a bloodbath.

    Where the demand is, at the high end, not enough professional writers can provide their skills with sales and marketing skills, leaving a huge need---------- The demand for learning and expanding ability is still more that readily available.
     
    dyadvisor, Jun 30, 2010 IP
  6. Blue Star Ent.

    Blue Star Ent. Well-Known Member

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    #146
    I liked this example so much I want to use it again :).

    Look at this scenario :

    A woman goes to the store mentioned ( Macy´s ) and gets that bag for $100. What does she do then ? She visits her friends and passes by in front of her enemies. When that all-important question finally reaches her ears; " But how much did you pay for the bag ? ?". She perks right up and says; "One hundred dollars !". He friends then "ooh" and "aaah" over the price and she feels like "a million dollars" ( so to speak ).


    Now :​

    Convert the above woman to that special article buyer online. They want to pay more, not just because of the quality, but because they want to be seen as a person with money. They want to "feel like a million dollars" too. :) The smart article writer will do whatever it takes to find this special article buyer online. Knowledge on how to find them and keep them is the key...

    Who here will become the "Macy´s" of article writing ?

    Okay... story ended.
     
    Blue Star Ent., Jun 30, 2010 IP
  7. Hampers

    Hampers Peon

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    #147
    Awesome thread, am really enjoying the practical economics of article writing but also the greater geo-political implications of living in a global village with unfettered market access.
    My opinion?
    Quality will always shine through, and there is no room for compromise if a client is simply unwilling to negotiate on price.
    It is so easyto discriminate between a well thought out essay and a hobbled together, awkward article written purely for sem.
    Perhaps we should urge the spiders and bots to get an undergrad in English Lit so we get some living English, not internet fluff.
     
    Hampers, Jul 1, 2010 IP
  8. WebBuddy

    WebBuddy Well-Known Member

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    #148
    I don't see the analogy here. The purchase of a discounted bag being passed off as one from the top store (or of higher price than the female actually paid for it) is clearly different from a person who is doing business.

    What I have noticed about clients is that :
    - Some don't actually have high budgets - so they pay a pittance :)
    - Some have high budgets and they think that the writers deserve their due - they pay okay to high rates
    - Then there is the third kind who think they are bargaining in a fishermarket and that they can get a good bargain and still can get top most quality. They are the ones who say I'll pay $2 for 1000 words, and I need high quality English, well research articles and timely delivery. Come on, what kind of lala land do you live in?

    Then again there is the issue of sweatshops and Kraven I am sorry to inform you that sweatshops continue to this very day - some in the same basic format as earlier, some with a semblance of some modernity (rights, freedom blah blah). Do you know what a daily wage earner earns in India ( I am sure that there will be some countries like Pakistan, Bangladesh and maybe Philippines where the rates are lower still) ? An unskilled laborer earns approximately $2-$3.5 per day (8 hours) and they are usually able to find work only 15 days of the month.. care to calculate that for me? Do you know what is the going monthly rate of the housemaid (she works approx. 1-1.5 hours daily) ? Any guesses? Okay, get ready for the shock of your life ;) It's $6 - yes $6 for the whole month without any leave (unless she takes 2-4 unscheduled ones herself) .. for $6-$8 a month she will wash our dirty utensils for the whole month (okay there are some perks too like old clothes, occasional bonuses, festival bonus etc. ). So, you'd call that a sweatshop, right? Yes, no, kind of ...

    The point I am trying to make here is that yes, we can help some people but we can't change the law of nature. It's not right, but it's there. India was once a super power but it was then continuously invaded, first by the Moghuls then by the British and left in tatters. The concern Kraven shows is of paramount importance - were it not for such concern, the British would have not left India inspite of all the non-violence movement by Mahatma Gandhi - it is this kind of concern which shames people and forces them to act in a more sensitive manner. India is today emerging but still it's way below the other economies - is it okay for the more powerful nations to treat the less powerful ones the way they do ? No . Is it okay to invade a country and kill millions? No.

    This is all so not okay, but it is there to stay. Similarly, this business model of taking advantage of those people who let others take it, is there to stay. As dyadvisor puts it - do you wish to stay at the bottom of the barrel or do you want to get what you are worth?

    Each person would need to answer that. Not to the world but to his/her own self . No amount of price regulating on forums / sites can do that. I hope I made my point of view somewhat clear amidst all this ranting .
     
    WebBuddy, Jul 1, 2010 IP
  9. Blue Star Ent.

    Blue Star Ent. Well-Known Member

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    #149
    The bag was bought at Macy´s. It was not the discounted bag. Hope that helps.

    Sweatshops exist because of at least three reasons;

    • people are not striving for a better living
    • they do not know where to look to better themselves ( ignorance )
    • the inherent nature of corruption; controlling others purely for personal profit.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2010
    Blue Star Ent., Jul 1, 2010 IP
  10. YMC

    YMC Well-Known Member

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    #150
    I don't get the bag analogy either. You are comparing an item of equal quality, manufactured by the same company simply being offered at two different prices.

    Perhaps a better analogy would be comparing an authentic Rolex watch for thousands of dollars against a $20 knock-off. At first glance they both look like pretty watches but when you dig a bit further you see the quality of workmanship simply isn't even close; much like the content provided by professionals vs the content provided by the penny pinching word counters.
     
    YMC, Jul 1, 2010 IP
  11. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #151
    No matter the bickering, I am pleased to see this thread has sparked so much interest, because I do think the topic is a very important one.

    Props to you all!
     
    Kraven2, Jul 1, 2010 IP
  12. wog

    wog Peon

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    #152
    I think that every buyer should have some morals when he/she hires someone to get things done for them.

    True, when people bid for $1 per 300+ words I feel bad. I almost feel as if I'm slaving them.

    The marketplace (not only in DP) is lowering prices each day now.
    If I place a bid for $1 per 300W, I will never end up paying this low since I know how to use the content & I will always reward the people who help me accordingly.

    What I really don't like is seeing people asking for 250W articles, getting the articles well written but somehow they exceeded the 250W max word count, and the buyer won't pay for the extra.

    IF you hire writers and you chain them, don't expect to get good quality articles written; but if you do get good quality that exceeds your word count limits, don't be an asshole and pay for the extra.

    With that being said, as stated above; there is still the rule of nature. If I get the exact same article from a Brit and an Indian, the bottom line will be significantly different as long as I am not slaving anyone. That is the core in outsourcing. When western buyers hire people from 3rd world countries they somewhat harm their own homeland economy and benefit the other. When you hurt your local economy, your instinct action will always seek to lower the damages, not to mention having the benefit of saving money if you already do so.



     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2010
    wog, Jul 1, 2010 IP
  13. dyadvisor

    dyadvisor Peon

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    #153
    Kraven2 Your post itself was not a bellringer, but it rang the wake up call.

    It is allowing the various pent up feelings of various viewpoints to be expressed.

    Like an octopus, it has branched out, while still keeping a central core. This is the air vent that was lacking on this section. Almost all the posters are exposing a high degree of intelligence along with their true genuine feelings. So in that manner, you have created a great learning post. So I would suggest others not to shoot any of all the messengers, as many are expressing what the lack on action on behalf of many lazy writers is causing.

    I want to get back to the purse analogy, as I found the different viewpoints interesting. The last one in particular, where I feel lies a valuable meaning.

    Comparing a $1,000 original to a say $50 knock off is what would should be turned right back to writers. However lets just remove a zero. There are the $5.00 knock off (in the true meaning) writers, and those on their way to selling the $100 original. Currently they may have to cut their profit margin and sell the original at closer to cost.

    The main point is that they absolutely to refuse to sell a knock off, even if right now they have to lower prices on the original.

    The buyer of knockoffs is a sweat house type creep. Paying low prices, then hurting the originals, by sliding in so many of the imitations. It is the writers choice in most countries to decide if they want to participate in producing knockoffs, which only mean temporary dinner security.

    The makers of the original personally branded articles are in many times at least in semi-business for themselves. They bring the quality originals to the article marketplace.

    I salute these individuals because they devote extra time to learning not only writing, but also sales, and marketing, as displayed by their websites. The top professional article writer, combines these three items and becomes also a true adviser not only to the buyer/client, and knows how to also find the client.

    So no there are not two sides to the equation, but there are many different octopus angles.

    ---------------------------------these is one of the most interesting and informative posts, as long as no one thinks they know the absolute answer for all occasions-----------------------------
     
    dyadvisor, Jul 1, 2010 IP
  14. Blue Star Ent.

    Blue Star Ent. Well-Known Member

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    #154
    Great improvement on my example... Forget mine.
     
    Blue Star Ent., Jul 1, 2010 IP
  15. lightless

    lightless Notable Member

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    #155
    It is unlikely that decent and halfway intelligent writers will take up slave wage article writing jobs. Those that are willing to take them up will probably be bad writers or frauds, so the guy giving out that job will probably get horrible/stolen articles.
     
    lightless, Jul 1, 2010 IP
  16. gvannorman

    gvannorman Well-Known Member

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    #156
    I believe that the decent writers that are accepting these slave wages are either bad, scammers, or new. New writers really have no idea on how to get a decent paying writing job. Maybe what is needed is for all the experienced writers to let new members know how to find these jobs. That way they do not have to rely on these slave wages. I personally check on Craigslist.
     
    gvannorman, Jul 1, 2010 IP
  17. lightless

    lightless Notable Member

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    #157
    Yes, they are usually desperate to make their first few bucks online by any means necessary. This leaves them quite open to being exploited by those looking for a dirt cheap writer.
     
    lightless, Jul 1, 2010 IP
  18. OnurSQL

    OnurSQL Guest

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    #158
    Kraven2; i believe you are still mixing different stuff together. My examples and the theory that i was against has nothing to do with sweatshops. I am not talking about people being forced to work for certain conditions. That is, of course, another subject and if you seek my personal opinion, i am against it. What i was debating here is, freelancers and freelancing market. They do value their work themselves and they do determine the price they are after. Can you be upset with them? The only reason you may be upset with them is, you are a competitor, and that is all. Up to a point, they have the choice to charge as much as you do, but certain life conditions are restricting them. The unemployment rate is such high, and the life standards are such low, thus they have to break the competition, and work for cheap. This is such a big picture that you can not solve it with moderating the prices. That is also not acceptable for the buyer side too, as you can not tell anyone what to pay for the service they are looking for. The market will find the balance, demand X supply.

    Sweatshops are a complete different subject here. If you look at my example, Ross is not a sweatshop, and Macy's is not the best department store out there. There are cheaper and more expensive options and each of them has their own client profile. I can not hate enough when people come in and judge about what the buyer is looking to pay or the provider wants to charge here. What a waste of time. If i am willing to pay $1, i am willing to pay $1. IF you think the fair price is $5, perfectly fine. Do not work for me. If i can not find someone at that price, i will increase the price (Market will find the balance). Or i will find some one and he/she will turn out to be really bad. Next time, i am going to tell myself, lets offer $2.
     
    OnurSQL, Jul 1, 2010 IP
  19. MattGervais

    MattGervais Peon

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    #159
    Old thread, I know. But I figured I'd chime in anyway. On average, I charge $0.04 per word. For someone who speaks English as a first language, this is a very fair price point. I could probably get more work if I charged $0.02/word, but then I would be selling myself short. If I can make a living in eight hours a day at $0.04 per word, why would I want to work even harder for lower pay?

    There are people who will try to get away with offering 1 cent per word, and there are writers who will accept that, because they don't have the confidence in their writing to ask for more. If you live in a third world country, speak great English, and write great content, charge the same as the writer from the USA or Canada. Why sell yourself short, just because you live somewhere where 1 cent per word is a good wage? Talented writers deserve great pay, because they produce great content. If you are a good writer, quit selling yourself short!

    That's my 2 cents.
     
    MattGervais, Jul 1, 2010 IP
    YMC likes this.
  20. Blue Star Ent.

    Blue Star Ent. Well-Known Member

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    #160
    Actually that was $7.28 for you. :) Yes, talented writers deserve great pay.
     
    Blue Star Ent., Jul 1, 2010 IP