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The return of Slavery

Discussion in 'Copywriting' started by Kraven2, Jun 12, 2010.

  1. Mystique

    Mystique Well-Known Member

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    #341
    Too long to read it no so please, could you elaborate what the pissing contest is about?
    SEMrush
     
    Mystique, Jul 28, 2010 IP
    SEMrush
  2. gvannorman

    gvannorman Well-Known Member

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    #342
    It is amazing that this thread has degenerated to what it is. Not even sure how we can get it back on the right track. Maybe its time to just leave it alone and let it die.
     
    gvannorman, Jul 28, 2010 IP
  3. atreides

    atreides Peon

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    #343
    One-upmanship, putting in politely
     
    atreides, Jul 28, 2010 IP
  4. atreides

    atreides Peon

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    #344
    No, Norman. This is, at its very core, a well-intentioned thread that attempts to assist some of our underpaid and exploited brethren. This one stays alive, even if I have to make daily postings on it.
    Being the wordsmiths & broadminded thinkers that we are, conflicting point of views are to be expected. But for a noble cause such as this, a degree of civility is to be expected. Is that too much to ask?
     
    atreides, Jul 28, 2010 IP
  5. travelguides

    travelguides Peon

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    #345
    I completely support the effort to educate fellow content writers. However, I wouldn't go to the extent of comparing low paid jobs to slavery. It is a known fact that there is a lot of competition when it comes to freelance jobs in this field and everyone's competing with everyone else. It would make sense if someone is desperate enough to offer their services at a lower than standard rate just so that they can get the job and maybe look forward to creating repeat business. There's always two sides to a story. :)

    Having said that, there's also no harm in setting a minimum wage for content writers. But that too, as others have suggested in this thread, would be difficult since there are so many varying levels of quality, experience and skills amongst writers. You can't paint everything with the same brush.
     
    travelguides, Jul 29, 2010 IP
  6. gvannorman

    gvannorman Well-Known Member

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    #346
    Even though there are many varying degrees of quality with the writers here I still feel that a minimum wage could be implemented. I had a discussion with a buyer yesterday. I was explaining to them that you have to make sure that you are getting something for your money. To me it does not matter that you are paying a penny or a dollar per word. What does matter is that you get a return on this investment. We have seen it mentioned many times that you get what you pay for. This buyer mentioned to me that you are not always guaranteed to get more by paying more. They also said that this is from their experience that if you offer more, you still get low quality or cheap writers. You are just paying them more. This is a practice that has to be stopped. If someone who has no writing ability at all comes on here just looking to make a quick buck and writes. They need to be shut down because of the quality of their writing. There are writers right here on DP who can write pretty damn good. They work hard and their quality is pretty decent. These writers should be paid for what they can offer the buyer. Maybe they have no idea what they are actually worth. I have started learning how to tell what my writing is actually worth. At the same time I have undercut myself on the prices. This is not only to remain competitive but affordable to the smaller online business owner.
     
    gvannorman, Jul 29, 2010 IP
  7. j3rr3my8

    j3rr3my8 Active Member

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    #347
    Sorry guys, been away a couple of days :)

    Sorry to miss the opportunity of returning all of your kind messages!

    tittering, teetering, lets call the whole thing off.

    Gvan, I can't tell you what I make per word, I don't really charge like that to be honest. I normally give the client a cost per 100 words, but I usually calculate my price per words against the time I think I will spend on the work. I win some I lose some.

    Atreides, maybe you need to relax a little? Just because I am vociferous in my discussions does not make them any less valid. Sometimes debate is heated and you can't expect discussions to be rosy all the time.

    I'm sorry if I've upset some people on here, but I make no apologies for what I have said. Chill out guys, it is just discussion. And if Dyadvisor wants to be above criticism because he is somehow disabled, then that is the worst. I am sure that anyone with any sort of disability would want to be treated normally. Would you have me not speak my mind to someone because of a disability? That is the worst thing you can do to a disabled person if you ask me.

    Interested to know what you think about this dyadvisor, should we be offering only kind words to you and holding our tongues if we disagree with anything you do, on the basis that you have a disability and we should feel sorry for you? I'm serious here and I wouldn't want to belittle you by treating you any differently to anybody else, able bodied or not.

    Have fun guys
     
    j3rr3my8, Jul 29, 2010 IP
  8. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #348
    Depends on what has been said. DY has the kind of disability that makes it hard to type, due to strokes he has suffered. Of course you don't have to treat him with gloves on, but to attack on the very subject he can do nothing about is downright low.

    Now, you didn't know that, so that's excusable, but shows again the same mistake you made on our previous encounter. You have a tendency to shoot first and ask questions later. That is a character flaw that can cost you dearly further down the road.
     
    Kraven2, Jul 29, 2010 IP
  9. contentboss

    contentboss Peon

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    #349
    Nicely put, Kraven. He just keeps on missing the point. DYa contributes enormously to this forum, and for some newbie to criticise him for typos would be valid if and only if DYa was selling something that required him to demonstrate his 'perfection' at it.

    DYA ain't selling anything

    The forum would be a better place if there were more people like DYa here, whether or not they *****g spell checked their posts.

    >rant mode off<
     
    contentboss, Jul 29, 2010 IP
  10. j3rr3my8

    j3rr3my8 Active Member

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    #350
    But the point was he was boasting that he could write an article four times better than someone else - which is why his 'typo's' (they weren't typo's) were relevant.
     
    j3rr3my8, Jul 29, 2010 IP
  11. gvannorman

    gvannorman Well-Known Member

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    #351
    J3rr3my8, How do you judge an article? Do you use search engine ranking as a quality factor? I am asking because I feel that if an article is written to reach the front page of Google it will get readers. At the same time if an article is written on the same search term, and does not hit the front page it gets little or no visitors. How does one judge the quality of the article? He dyadvisor says he can write 4 times better than you and his article hits the front page and yours does not. Is that article better than yours? I think that it would be due to its effectiveness. What do you think?
     
    gvannorman, Jul 29, 2010 IP
  12. j3rr3my8

    j3rr3my8 Active Member

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    #352
    Well first of all, I have to say that dyadvisor was saying to someone else in the thread that he could write a post four times better than the other person. He never said he could write an article four times better tham me. I merely stepped in because I felt sorry for the person he was challenging.

    But, to answer your question, it depends! some of my articles are offline work, some are not. It obviously depends on the goals of the person you are writing for. The thing to be able to do is to be able to master both arts! The thing is it is probably not futile to be a bad writer and get your work to the first page of google (which page, for what search term, it's all relative) because you do get your work seen, depending on the amount of people searching for that particular term, but it would be nice for those people who are regularly optimising their work well to be able to have well written engaging work in order to keep the readers interest once they get there.

    I'm pretty interested to know exactly what you mean about hitting the top of google too. This is a difficult one because it obviously depends on your search terms. If, for instance you are writing for a site and you want people to find your page and your page and your site is coffee.com (good luck getting that url!) you are going to find it hard to get to the top page of google for the search term 'coffee'. That'll be occupied by nestle, or some such major corporation who has a linking budget of a million dollars a yaear to make sure they sit at the top of the tree. Being on top of google is only useful if you are on top of google for a popular search term.

    Do you think you could elaborate with regards to what exactly you mean when you say get to the top of google? Maybe with an example? I'd be very interested to know.

    when I write work that is going online it depends on what the client asks of me, and the time I am allotting to the work, but depending on the job I will either have keywords to play with, or I will do my own keyword research and I will then look to apply the appropriate density of keywords, without losing the flow of the article. I hate it when keywords stand out. I think a piece of work should flow and it's a shame when people overlook this.

    I'd also say that it's worth remembering that if you manage to get a bad article read a lot of times then it is probably not doing you any good! Content is still king of course, but it's no good without some optimisation.

    Thanks for the question and not the usual barrage of hate mail, I'm not used to it!!
     
    j3rr3my8, Jul 29, 2010 IP
  13. gvannorman

    gvannorman Well-Known Member

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    #353
    Thanks for your answer. Now let me elaborate on the Top of Google meaning.

    The top of Google is with in the top 5 spots. Now your not always going to get there for the search term you want or phrase. I do believe that you can beat Nestle at their own game if you work hard enough.

    Now here is what I have learned over the last few weeks working with dyadvisor. I considered myself a pretty decent writer, did I ever hit the front page of Google? Nope. But, I was decent enough to make a couple cents a word. Now I feel that I can consistently put an article on the front page. Will every article hit the top 10? Just a good amount of them will. Dyadvisor has taught me how to properly place keywords to make it there. He has taught me the proper usage of synonyms and power words that compliment the keywords without stopping the flow of the article. Do I think that Dyadvisor can write better than the majority of members here? Yes. I am a firm believer in what he has said.

    Using his technique I have landed 2 big clients. Made more money in 1 order than I did in 10 before I started with him. For that I am thankful. The man has a mind that works in mysterious ways. It always seems to come up with a new method to put clients in line with each other.

    Now, are you a good writer? I would have to say yes. Not that I have ever seen anything but the posts that you make, but you seem to know your stuff. I just wish that everyone here could see that we are all here for a common purpose. This is not a pissing contest. We need to educate others on how to improve themselves. It was mentioned earlier that "You can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink". True, but if they refuse to drink we can push them in and let them drown. That is what is going to happen to the writers who advertise low rates and the buyers who hire them.
     
    gvannorman, Jul 29, 2010 IP
  14. j3rr3my8

    j3rr3my8 Active Member

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    #354
    Ok I understand that about google - really I am asking you what you personally mean by getting your article to the top of google. Do you mean top five results for a particular search term that you incorporate into your article? Or do you mean something else? I do work in the affiliate links niche and it's pretty easy to get sites on which my articles are placed in the top five of google, but this is generally because they are not the most popular search terms. It's a lot easier to get to the top of google for the search term, 'robots in green pin striped suits' than it is to get something for the term 'Coffee machine'. Do you see what I am saying?

    Nestle - I know all their games, I used to do some of their linking work!!
     
    j3rr3my8, Jul 29, 2010 IP
  15. gvannorman

    gvannorman Well-Known Member

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    #355
    I do understand what your saying. Some terms are less competitive than others. Robots in green pin stripes might start taking over the world. Now that would be scary. Wonder if it would be Googlebot.

    But, I do mean the top of Google as the top 5 spots for a search term. If your good at linking, I would love to learn from you on that. I know article writing but I would also love to learn linking. Its all relative to SEO so the more I know the more valuable I am.
     
    gvannorman, Jul 29, 2010 IP
  16. YMC

    YMC Well-Known Member

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    #356
    Getting to the top 5 of Google is always a good thing but it's certainly not the only mark of an effective article.

    Case in point...Several years ago I played around with seeing if Digg members could be beaten at their own game by writing very craftily written and controversial pieces. Both of my articles made it to the front page. My blog saw thousands of hits and gained even more backlinks virtually overnight. I still get folks visiting those articles from Digg. I never expected to rank in the top 5 for "Adsense" or any of it's variants; yet, both articles succeeded beyond my expectations. If you can get something to go viral or even semi-viral, Google just doesn't factor into the mix until everyone's already talking about you anyway.
     
    YMC, Jul 29, 2010 IP
  17. gvannorman

    gvannorman Well-Known Member

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    #357
    Okay. So you used Digg as the initial method to get readers? Maybe, I will spend some time and try this out for myself. Not saying that it will be as successful as yours, it just sounds like an interesting experiment. Just not sure what you meant by beating Digg members at their own game.
     
    gvannorman, Jul 29, 2010 IP
  18. YMC

    YMC Well-Known Member

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    #358
    I think it would be much harder to game Digg today using my method. The members that were there when I did my experimenting were somewhat territorial and quick to shoot. I suspected that if I insulted something they held sacred that I would gain tons of attention. That's exactly what happened. The irony was that I was away from the computer when it 'hit the fan' and I actually had a debate raging on both my blog and the Digg page about what I was actually saying because so many couldn't or didn't read past the headline.

    Digg is about more than just readers though. I ended up with tons and tons of backlinks. Had my articles been about something easier to rank for, I have no doubt that I could have dominated the SERPs. Of course, had I written about something easier to rank for I doubt I would have created the same reaction.

    Unfortunately, the last time I looked at Digg it seemed to have degraded into a contest of who could post the latest headline the fastest. Most of the top posts weren't even posts but links to news about movie stars and politics. It's still useful for a trickle of traffic and SEO but I think much more work and hundreds of friends would be required to see similar results.
     
    YMC, Jul 29, 2010 IP
  19. dyadvisor

    dyadvisor Peon

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    #359
    Not ignoring you YMC, as your points about Digg are of merit.

    JR3 and gvanorman:

    If you want to be sensible JR3, I will just share a touch. Say the topic is greeting cards. ANYONE would be a fool to spend time or money trying to rank for the 2 word combo: greeting cards.

    Now I add some logic. 34.6% of 200, or 17% of 500 is more than 100% of nothing. Now my writing is not left to chance on being on an article website shelf, and someone discovering your article and clicking to the client's website. That is bonus traffic, and requires little skill. Unfortunately 98% or more of articles fall in this category. So if there were on Google 5,000 articles on “greeting cards”, the #50 best article holds little value.

    Agree? So I can continue. Say the topic is greeting cards. ANYONE would be a fool to spend time or money trying to rank for the 2 word combo: greeting cards. Now if I show a writer to find at least 30 keyword interchangeable combinations that people would search for.

    From my paragraph starting with “Now”, those numbers reflect direct traffic drawn from Google alone. Let alone traffic by chance of an article directory, plus those from blogs. If the 5 Google top ten hits, had 1,400 monthly traffic visitors at 17.3%, that means 100 extra readers monthly. Now these are readers wanting to get information, so the conversion rate expands from a normal 4 to 6% to 13 to 15%. Do the math, and do not forget to add the regular article directory readers. Even 50 extra monthly readers would be enough.

    So the term is still greeting cards. However, the title might be “Online website greeting cards: Find quality messages easy and free” 66 characters – perfect. Now the article is written, and interlaced with not only synonyms, but also alternate endings. Examples: online = internet--greeting = welcome, greetings--cards = card, message, note notes—find = finds finding locate locating discover---easy = simple, simply---etc.

    Each word was carefully chosen. 30 search terms? Easy. Find online greeting cards, free easy quality messages, quality greeting cards free, etc, etc, etc. All sensible search terms. I average 10 top ten Google positions per article. One year later, 1 of 10 has dropped 2 notches. 5+ years traffic. $250.00. Figure that value for an accident/injury lawyer who might make $30,000 off one client or a financial services planner making $20,000 profit off of the 12 new SOLD clients, received in 4 months. Those are conservative figures.

    There it is. (a tiny part of the total). This is why I was nicknamed among insurance/financial professionals as the Wizard, for their article ghostwriting. Believe it or not.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2010
    dyadvisor, Jul 30, 2010 IP
  20. contentboss

    contentboss Peon

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    #360
    OMG. Must Have Last Word. Little Perry Roseboy.

    Look, Gordon Ramsay can cook, right? Michelin starred and all. Guess what he gives his kids for tea?

    Burger and fries.

    Don't judge Gordon till you've been to his restaurant.
     
    contentboss, Jul 30, 2010 IP