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The return of Slavery

Discussion in 'Copywriting' started by Kraven2, Jun 12, 2010.

  1. lightless

    lightless Notable Member

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    #221
    Multiple streams of income doesn't necessarily have to mean sources of non-writing income. They could be income not gotten in the traditional "Client gives job, you complete it, you get paid" manner via the utilization of writing skills such as multiple associated press articles which trickle money in, articles which sell products (Affiliate marketing), informational websites with Adsense and so on. Writing skills and skills naturally possessed by writers can be easily put to good use in developing sources of income apart from traditional client given writing jobs.SEMrush
     
    lightless, Jul 4, 2010 IP
    SEMrush
  2. lightless

    lightless Notable Member

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    #222
    All I meant was that not only should one simply read those books, but put those principles to use consistently. Simply reading self help books never did nobody no good, that was what I meant. I have long read and used self help books, and thus I made that remark. It was ambiguous and vague, hence it was misinterpreted. Perfectly understandable.

    My avatar is a sign of the templars, not of any righteousness, I am a history and medieval ages afficionado. I do not make claims of being great either. I am a skepic true, but I am just as skeptical of myself.

    And finally, I have no interest in attacking you. Sorry if I made you feel that way.

    Time to leave this forum for good like I left the P&R forum long ago I think.
     
    lightless, Jul 4, 2010 IP
  3. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #223
    C'mon don't be over dramatic. On discussion boards, arguments happen. I had my share of clashes, with plenty, even with Dyadisor. Didn't stop us from becoming friends though.

    People need to see forums in the proper perspective, and not take any argument that arises so damn freaking serious. :)

    Just participate and have fun. When the time comes when I let arguments drive me off a forum, pigs will fly :D

    Edit: Oh crap.....

    [​IMG]
     
    Kraven2, Jul 4, 2010 IP
  4. lightless

    lightless Notable Member

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    #224
    No, I am not thinking of leaving the copywriting forum (For a while at least) because of arguments. Those happen everyday. I didn't take anything seriously either. Neither do I have any beef with anyone.

    Just that I no longer get much joy out of this copywriting forum. Actually, haven't for a pretty long while. Not many arguments or topics that stimulated me intellectually, too many clashes between members, drama, too many off topic/rehash or "Facepalm" type posts. Most advice is either rehashed (For me) or not useful (For me) or plain wrong in a few cases. Or maybe my cup is too full (Those who know zen might understand). Even Jhmattern doesn't seem to post here anymore.
     
    lightless, Jul 4, 2010 IP
  5. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #225
    Well instead of running away like the others, do something about it! Post some good stuff, start a thread or two. Considering your join date and post count, I am sure you have lots of interesting tales to tell, and things to jump start that grey matter.

    You'll have a sparkling discussion going in no time.
     
    Kraven2, Jul 4, 2010 IP
  6. MarTh-

    MarTh- Well-Known Member

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    #226
    Yes please save this forum I'm a newbie writer with some bad writing habits and I need any help I can get. My own website starts development in just a couple days and I need a lot of creative writing and SEO writing help.

    Andrew
     
    MarTh-, Jul 5, 2010 IP
  7. gvannorman

    gvannorman Well-Known Member

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    #227
    Can I suggest that you send Dyadvisor a PM. Let him know what you want to do. He is known for tutoring others free of charge. If you have some basic writing skills all you need is the right guidance.
     
    gvannorman, Jul 5, 2010 IP
    MarTh- likes this.
  8. MarTh-

    MarTh- Well-Known Member

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    #228
    Thanks I am sending him a PM now; I would love to improve the quality of my article and forum development writing.

    I wish to eventually get up to $0.02/word+ and MY CONTENT to be worth more than that too in the buyers eyes
     
    MarTh-, Jul 5, 2010 IP
  9. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #229
    2 cents will sound like a good joke when DY is through with you :)
     
    Kraven2, Jul 6, 2010 IP
  10. fm1234

    fm1234 Peon

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    #230
    posted by Kraven2:
    Well, in all fairness, you titled the thread as the return of "slavery" and as far as I can see every solution you've suggested has had to do with forcing people to pay more, including having buyers pay DP for the difference between the charged rate and what you feel is a "fair" rate.

    Should people who buy Kias be forced to pay a $40,000 fee to some central body so that Lexus dealers don't feel left out?

    I sell domains, but also give away domains every month here and at other forums. Should I pay DP $10 for every domain I give away to keep things fair for other domain sellers?

    I'm not being sarcastic; just taking your example into other industries to see if it makes any sense. It doesn't.

    If someone is charging a penny or a half a penny or whatever for 100 words, and someone else is willing to buy it, it's hard to understand what the problem is. You could always restrict the trade by adding minimums, but how will that actually benefit writers? If someone is only willing to pay a penny for a hundred words, and you charge fifteen cents per hundred, you aren't losing a buyer -- that person was never a buyer of your services in the first place. They'll take their business elsewhere, and they will probably find someone to fill the order -- and you'll still be here looking for a $0.15/100 buyer.


    Frank
     
    fm1234, Jul 6, 2010 IP
  11. WebBuddy

    WebBuddy Well-Known Member

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    #231
    Good point mate.
     
    WebBuddy, Jul 6, 2010 IP
  12. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #232
    You are right, I feel on the buyers end some regulation should come from DP, as far as the writers go I am very much engaged in educating those as you can see here and in my signature.

    Are the KIA employees working on the cars being underpaid and suckered into building cars at that rate? The dealers have no place in the equation as writers deal with clients direct, and therefore the example is flawed. Also employees are paid fixed wages, something that can not be said for freelance writers.

    So no offense, you are comparing apples and oranges.

    That is the point, it needs to be stopped at both ends, and while we as writers who have climbed above this scrapyard, need to lift up the talented writers, it does not mean that owners of the marketplace should not take their responsibility and start cleaning up there.

    Sure the penny pushers will move on, and that's good riddance I say.
     
    Kraven2, Jul 6, 2010 IP
  13. Blue Star Ent.

    Blue Star Ent. Well-Known Member

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    #233

    You have a good point. A very popular search engine just made an "adjustment" to keep the cheap ( low quality ) content at bay. That is the .01 cent per word crowd for the most part. Search engines need to remain relevant to exist. That "popular search engine" was just keeping ahead of the game for their users by "penalizing" the cheap content.


    In the big picture, the search engines are going to have to weed out the cheap content because it is flooding the web with... cheap content :). Writers who work on that level are going to have to become better or get "weeded out". What will they do ?


    Search engine users ( that is you and I ) deserve relevant searches. What would you do if every time you searched for something it always came up to visiting a Clickbank site trying to sell you something ?
     
    Blue Star Ent., Jul 6, 2010 IP
    gvannorman likes this.
  14. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #234
    Very good point. Sadly DP won't let me rep you before I repped a few others :D
     
    Kraven2, Jul 6, 2010 IP
  15. jjpmarketing

    jjpmarketing Peon

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    #235
    Business is business. Buyers will always try keep their costs low. Sellers will always try to keep their revenues high. It is basic economics. Supply and demand. Remain competitive on pricing or get left behind wondering WTF? Of course the biggest wildcard is marketing. If you are good enough to market and sell your services at high price, then by all means do so. No one said that a large quantity of orders would be more profitable than a few orders at a high price.

    Now on the topic of the slave labor. Slave labor is when you are paying someone below poverty levels. Since I live in the US, we could call that minimum wage. I know that a lot of folks in India, China, Phillipines, etc. are paid very well for the services they provide. It doesn't make them rich by no means, but it is still a good wage. In a global marketplace, changing the market by having those in cheaper economies demanding expensive economy prices could remove them from the marketplace altogether.

    Look at it in these terms. If a writer born and raised in the US can write a 500 word article for $10 and a Chinese writer charges the exact same price... Who do you think they will choose to have write their article? Naturally it will be an English speaking person because they know it won't have to be edited. Of course writing is only one service. Graphic Design, Web Programming, etc. is a different monster altogether. When it comes to design you will choose whoever is the best. When it comes to programming it will be a matter of who you think you can trust with coding.

    The market will always take care of itself. Nothing will ever change that. Start demanding minimum prices on the forum and another will take its place with those same cheaper prices. The Global Economy is out of your hands. The market will do what the market will do. The key is to make certain you are quick on your feet and can adapt to the volatile changes in the marketplace.
     
    jjpmarketing, Jul 6, 2010 IP
  16. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #236
    Well said, and I agree for the most part. For that reason I think the approach of improving the writer's skills is the way to go.

    That the market will always take care of itself, is not entirely true of course, just looking at legislation in the US, European Union, etc... you will see plenty of laws ensuring fair trade(Whether that actually is fair is another discussion, but the laws are there). We also see other places online with measures as suggested by me in place, doing quite well, so it is not impossible.

    Bottom line is simply that I am all for competition, on price, quality, speed, whatever, but there has to be a limit. When I saw offers of $0.15 per 100 words, that is where I decided to create this thread, because no matter what country you are from that is not even decent beer money. That's not competing any longer that's an attempt at exploiting. If you read my original post, that started this thread you will notice that I specifically state:
    There is such a thing as business ethics, and if anything the above rates are in my book unethical to say the least. It is downright exploitation. Before you start about the writers responding to jobs like that, yes they are as much to blame, as the buyer, both are part of the problem for half of it. While we can attempt to improve the writer, we can not do anything against the buyer, hence my suggestion for a minimum price.
     
    Kraven2, Jul 6, 2010 IP
  17. fm1234

    fm1234 Peon

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    #237
    I guess my confusion comes from the multipls references to slave wages, slavery etc. No one, or presumably very very very few writers, are actually being forced to write for nothing. I've seen content in the penny-per-word range and don't have any use for it myself; however, people who want filler crap for their sites need to get it somewhere.

    I just have a hard time envisioning how rules-from-on-high will fix anything. I mean, fewer posts on the topic sure, but it won't decrease your competition as a writer, since the people selling content for $0.01 a word are not your competition.

    I do think that there are some stellarly stupid expectations on the part of newbie buyers of content and other services, and see some laughable stuff here and elsewhere. But I've always just considered it part and parcel of the overall market; just like all other businesses everywhere, web content has evolved to have price and quality strata -- something for everyone, as it were. Which brings me back around to trying to figure out why it needs messing with. I mean, if you really want to affect a change in the market, start a content market site with price and quality guarantees, really get in there and do something on the longtail end of the market, rather than trying to get a catchall place like DP to be the leading edge of change.


    Frank
     
    fm1234, Jul 6, 2010 IP
  18. gvannorman

    gvannorman Well-Known Member

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    #238
    I am not sure that DP has to change. It is the writers that have to change. You can go on saying that if the writers here start refusing jobs for less than a penny a word the buyers will go elsewhere. Maybe! I personally do not think that it will have that big of an effect on the work that gets done by some pretty darn good writers here on DP.

    I feel that the buyers have to start paying a decent wage for a decent amount of work. If you have ever been in the content creation business then you understand what its like to be from the US and have to work 10 or 12 hours a day just to make 70 bucks. That works out to be about $5 or $6 an hour. Where I live minimum wage is $8. So, when you submit a sample review copy to your prospective client. They have the ability to see what your quality level is. They can determine what your worth.

    I have an article in a directory that I wrote. 1 day after it got accepted I ranked in the 4th position in Google for the keyword phrase. This should show someone who is interested in what I can do that I am worth at a minimum $20 per 500 words. I do mean that is a minimum. Just so everyone knows, I have worked for the slave wages. But, I have since then moved on to bigger clients and bigger money. I have turned the corner and currently I am walking up a whole different street. Getting away from the beer money and buying Champagne.
     
    gvannorman, Jul 6, 2010 IP
  19. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #239
    I agree, that is a strong term, however in my opinion it applied in many ways, and it was a good term to get some attention to the subject. I think 12 pages later, you will at least agree with me on that, it was effective :)

    As I stated in the OP, I have no problem with the competition, competition is good, it keeps you sharp and on your toes. Competition, however can be taken to far and to a point no writer, no matter where he or she lives, can make a decent living from it. It was(is?) going that way in the BST section. That was why I started this in the first place. Not for myself, I don't hunt there for jobs(I do look there, to see what the current trend in price is on DP). I remember when I started out and how little I knew of rates for writing. I could have been easily suckered in to selling myself short. I want to raise awareness amongst the writers(The ones that actually can write), for that fact that they are worth much more then that, and start acting accordingly. With teaching them just a little more, sharpening their skills so to speak, this can easily be obtained. At the same time I think it would not hurt to clean the BST area up, but that is not something we as writers can accomplish. The minimum rate I suggested is just one I offered. I think it is easy to point at something, but utterly useless if you don't provide at least a solution to discuss. Other ideas on that subject are more then welcome.

    Which I am. It is a work in progress. Currently I have with the kind help of Dyadvisor a free writers course available to sharpen their skills, and am shaping a market much wider then just the DP BST section. At the moment I have approximately six sources available and at least six more to add, all offering much higher payment then what is offered in the BST section. I am one who puts his money where his mouth is.
     
    Kraven2, Jul 7, 2010 IP
  20. jjpmarketing

    jjpmarketing Peon

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    #240
    I did read your entire OP. And I do understand what you are saying... but it becomes a matter of supply and demand in that regard. There may be some folks out there out of work and nowhere to turn except the internet to make money. Initially they may work for free or practically nothing to build a queue of clients and slowly but surely weed out the ones who are the exploiters by raising their prices at certain plateaus in their service business. And I will re-state it again. The market will take care of itself. There will always be exploiters. There will always be people that undercut the next guys prices. It isn't really exploitation when the writers themeselves are doing harm to each other by competing for business. People paying .15 per 100 words aren't the exploiters.

    People like associated content and the like are the exploiters. Making thousands of dollars off of others content... only to dish out a few dollars in return.
     
    jjpmarketing, Jul 7, 2010 IP