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The return of Slavery

Discussion in 'Copywriting' started by Kraven2, Jun 12, 2010.

  1. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #201
    Wow! lots of replies :)
    SEMrush
    Thanks(I think?) Gruff exterior fine, but no beer for me, a good Whiskey sure, but beer.... :D

    Habits die hard, we need to work from the other angle, and get writers to say NO to scraps.

    I disagree, there are plenty of good buyers on here, they just don't post in the BST sections, but approach writers privately. I got some good clients from this place, that are still buying from me every single day. And still more pop out of the woodworks.

    This is once again a matter of sticking to your rate. If you got the skills to match, you will find clients happy to pay the rate.

    For example: I haven't given a bulk discount in over a year, and I am not going to start either. I have my rates and they can take it or leave it(And yes I do this for a living).

    Excellent example! That is the type of content buyer we need to kick so hard in his or her behind that he or she will starve in mid air!

    Best advice in this thread!
     
    Kraven2, Jul 3, 2010 IP
    SEMrush
  2. alex06291

    alex06291 Peon

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    #202
    Very accurate info. keep going on please to help the society!
     
    alex06291, Jul 3, 2010 IP
  3. fm1234

    fm1234 Peon

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    #203
    Why is it the buyers' fault, but not the ones doing the work so cheaply? This seems like the converse of the argument that people working for low wages in the Third World are "stealing jobs" from people in the First World.

    Any job is worth no more than the buyer is willing to pay, and the provider willing to accept in payment. Price discovery is an essential part of economics, and in writing in particular, one definitely gets what one pays for. My last for-pay writing gigs I was charging $25 for "approximately 500 word" articles, and I never had a problem finding work -- I just didn't solicit it around a bunch of morons looking for quality content for free. And at $25 I was charging less than upper echelon writers were, often by a wide margin.

    There are just too many variables involved to try to say it's going to somehow improve the content market by establishing price controls. And if you insist on price controls, why not have DP ban people who advertise writing for less than a given amount?


    Frank
     
    fm1234, Jul 3, 2010 IP
  4. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #204
    Why ban? A good means of rooting out the greedy content buyers would be to determine a minimum price and if the buyer insists, he should pay DP the difference.

    That way true cheap skates would wander off in search for greener pastures.

    By no means have I stated that writers accepting the penny jobs are not to blame, they are, and that is exactly why a thread like this one was needed. As was stated here previously, this is a wake up call.
     
    Kraven2, Jul 3, 2010 IP
  5. Slincon

    Slincon Well-Known Member

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    #205
    Same goes for designers and coders - foreign competition causes big headaches for these industries. Designers are a little luckier because they can charge a bit more, but the programming and copy writing industries are ruined because so many people get just jump into it.

    The matter is made worse when foreign programmers and writers willingly take lower offers because of the exchange rate. It's bad for them too because they're devaluing their labour and soon people will only want to pay that much for their work because they think that's the accepted rate. Competitive pricing is fine, even amongst the international market - but constantly pricing yourself under what you're worth is just stupid (which is what happens 90% of the time).
     
    Slincon, Jul 3, 2010 IP
  6. gvannorman

    gvannorman Well-Known Member

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    #206
    The problem of "cheap" article writers is the fault of both the buyers and providers. Kraven was right with the fact that this thread was needed and it is a wake up call. Not just to the writers but the buyers also. Consider this, if your a writer either it be first world, second world, or third world your a writer nonetheless. So now you answer a request to write and submit a bid for 3 cents a word. The buyer says no and offers 1 cent per word. Now, you have a choice drop your rate or lose the client. Lets say you bid on 10 jobs, and not get any...should you then drop your rate to meet the buyers?

    Most providers will do this just to keep the money coming in. Because everyone has to eat. If writing is your only income then refusing job after job is not going to put food on your table and I dont care what country you come from. This is where the writers have to change. Every single one of the writers here need to be made aware that they are worth more.

    Now the buyers here need to realize that paying crap rates is going to get you crap. That is why if you agree to raise what your willing to pay then you will get more than you did before. Simply put and it has been said many times. You get what you pay for.
     
    gvannorman, Jul 3, 2010 IP
  7. lightless

    lightless Notable Member

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    #207
    It doesn't have to be that way (Reducing rates to keep money flowing in). Diversify, don't depend on just writing jobs for income. Find more ways to make money with your skills. It could be web design, adsense, part time offline jobs and so on. Supplement your writing income with other sources.

    So when you're not earning from writing because of lack of good paying jobs, you have other sources of income. That way you don't have to take low pay jobs, which are a waste of time anyway (Unless you have poor skills or some other constraint).
     
    lightless, Jul 3, 2010 IP
  8. gvannorman

    gvannorman Well-Known Member

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    #208
    Well, I do not consider myself lacking of writing skills. What I do lack is web design skills. I am not saying that I personally have no way of making additional income. Having multiple streams is always a great idea but not always feasible to everyone. That is what my post was about. Not those who can write, design, and have other ways of making money. Some people have no job and no way to get a job. I know that statement is going to bring in a slew of comments. What I mean is that their resources are limited.

    Adsense should never be used as a main source of income for anyone. The payments are so low and it takes a very long time to build up to get the traffic that you need in order to make any money with it.
     
    gvannorman, Jul 3, 2010 IP
  9. lightless

    lightless Notable Member

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    #209
    Multiple streams of income may not be for everyone. But still, most people can make money in more ways than one even if they think otherwise. They usually just lack the motivation to find and utilize other income sources. Sometimes having their main source getting destroyed will motivate them to find other better alternatives they didn't even consider or notice (Just like getting fired from an offline job motivates some).

    I would disagree on Adsense, but then again not everybody can make decent earnings with it. Not for everyone, but still very much a viable option. I've had some pretty good results personally, in the past.
     
    lightless, Jul 3, 2010 IP
  10. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #210
    Additional revenue streams are always a good idea. Wise man said: Don't put all your eggs in one basket, and those are words to live by.

    Adsense is a good moneymaker, if you are a good at raising traffic. They are all skills that can be acquired, and even better, they will make you a better, more professional and more versatile writer.
     
    Kraven2, Jul 3, 2010 IP
  11. gvannorman

    gvannorman Well-Known Member

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    #211
    I personally have not been able to generate the traffic needed to make any amount of money from Adsense. Maybe after I improve my writing style from working with Dyadvisor I will see this in a different light. Until then I will just keep on keeping on.
     
    gvannorman, Jul 3, 2010 IP
  12. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #212
    Was it a matter of traffic, or ad placement I wonder?
     
    Kraven2, Jul 3, 2010 IP
  13. gvannorman

    gvannorman Well-Known Member

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    #213
    I am not sure on what the issue is with my Adsense maybe it is ad placement. I just know that my site gets very low traffic. 20 - 30 unique visitors a day. I am hoping that with what I learn from Dyadvisor that I will be able to increase this traffic ten fold. But, I do know that I will be able to get more money for what I love to do.
     
    gvannorman, Jul 3, 2010 IP
  14. dyadvisor

    dyadvisor Peon

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    #214
    Lightless - you have raised a two sided sword. If you are skilled at balancing multiple streams of income, then you will rarely get nicked, and never stabbed.

    However, many writers use other streams of income, because they do not want to face the facts. It is a form of deadly procrastination, and they will always live in danger of not making the cut-off line.

    Instead, like an ostrich, they need to get their head out of the sand. Either commit yourself fully, no holds barred, or look for another occupation. If they become a talented writer, then looking at optional income sources is no risk.

    You seem to be fortunate to delicately balance on the tightrope. Others though would rapidly following you, fall to the sword below.

    --------good points, plus the one of showing that many people cannot accept the fact that the standard wage for their country is not holding them back. It is they themselves doing it, and in turn hurting others by lowering the limbo pole. For those not as ancient, the famous line was "how low can you go?"----source, Limbo Rock?, Chubby Checker----------------
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2010
    dyadvisor, Jul 3, 2010 IP
  15. supercar

    supercar Peon

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    #215
    Kraven2,

    I think you and I were the ones who pointed out that the $300 / month was too low to get content written everyday of the month.
    When I accept and can clearly see where you come from and what your (as well as my) opinion about this issue is, I don't think DP can do anything about this. Buyers and sellers from the third world countries make up a major portion of the freelancing web world. In that case, if DP or for that matter any other site, starts mandating, 'min rates', they just go to other sites, or start off new forums to make these deals possible at these rates.


    Isn't this the same issue that started in the early 1995's -2000s? Outsourcing and the lower rates and people over here losing jobs. It's the same thing all over again but in a different arena. Buyers go for the price + quality, sellers compete in bidding process to get the most number of projects. It's going to become mass-production. The only way people over here can survive is reduce the prices and stick to providing the best articles they can and showing a clear difference in the quality of the product. Someone else already pointed out about how they can spin more than 1,000 articles out of two, which are copy-scape passed. If you write good, unique content it would for sure would be different from the crap spinning would provide. But, until the buyer realizes this, there is nothing you and I or for that matter DP can do.


    The issue is bigger than DP. It is 'Cheap human labor'.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2010
    supercar, Jul 3, 2010 IP
  16. Kraven2

    Kraven2 Active Member

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    #216
    Yes and no. There are other places that do perfectly well, yet have strict rules in place. constant-content.com to name one. You won't find any Slave Wages there.

    So it is possible. Do I think it is likely to happen here? Absolutely not. But it brought enough controversy to this thread to get a truly meaningful discussion going,which was the ulterior motive to begin with ;)
     
    Kraven2, Jul 3, 2010 IP
  17. gvannorman

    gvannorman Well-Known Member

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    #217
    I believe that DP could set up conditions that govern the prices paid or charged in the BST section. They already have it where if you are offering anything below $5 it has to in the freebies section. So, lets not say that it is not possible. Maybe they could have another thread where those cheap writers can post. If you want to pay or charge anything below 4 cents a word it could go into lets say the Crappy Quality Section or we could call it Copied and Spun Content Creation. I am sure that if we put our minds together we can come up with some other names that we could name the thread. Lets hear your ideas.
     
    gvannorman, Jul 3, 2010 IP
  18. Blue Star Ent.

    Blue Star Ent. Well-Known Member

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    #218

    That is true for the moment. Software is being developed that will cut out the crap spinning with "credible spinning". A search engine will have to develop some serious tools to combat the then-readable articles.


    The more active the search engines become against "crap spinning" ( such as the recent google adjustment ) the harder it will be for crap spinners, human or not, to continue doing what they do. Search engines have to stay relative to survive.


    Having success in Electronic warfàre means staying at least one step ahead of the enemy. When the next software comes out that creates seamless, readable articles, the search engines are going to have to do something. What will the human crap spinners do then ?
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2010
    Blue Star Ent., Jul 3, 2010 IP
  19. aru2007

    aru2007 Peon

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    #219
    Well said, but the point again comes back to "Who would determine if a writer is Crappy or Quality?". No person would ever say that he writes crappy stuff and when there is a section that pays say 4 cents a word, everyone would try to sell their stuff there.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2010
    aru2007, Jul 3, 2010 IP
  20. gvannorman

    gvannorman Well-Known Member

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    #220
    That is a valid point. If everyone wants to sell their stuff for 4 cents a word. Then why accept a penny? If you want four cents...charge four cents. The buyers do not dictate the rate. Writers have to.
     
    gvannorman, Jul 3, 2010 IP