The Holy Fire Miracle (Fire that does not burn) - one of the greatest in history.

Hey luke, have you been to that church?

I'd use the term "dumb" instead of "blessed".

Wanna buy a bridge?

 

I predicted your answer, for brainwashed religious people facts make no difference since they are desperate to believe in their imaginary friend.

You don´t need scientific test, just take the priest (magician) out of equation by not letting him enter and the fire will die. Wouldn´t that be funny that you can destroy the fire of God and Jesus by stopping the priest? Man is stronger than Jesus.

 

gworld,

This miracle occurs since 1106 A.D. Are you suggesting that the Magic trick is passed along? If so, all these thousands of people are spelled by magic too? Because they can't be burned so they must be actors. Wait, they must be hired by the Church. The jew authorities surrounding the place are actors too.

What am I desperate to believe in? I do not need a Miracle to believe.

I think that is your desperate answer because you can't figure out this Miracle.

And you call me brainwashed Mr. Criss angel magic geek?

 

Most of church traditions are very old and the proof is that when crusaders replaced the priest, the fire stopped but the desire for the profit from all brainwashed Pilgrims made them to start it again.

 

Again, I am going to repeat the answer for the same questions.

If there is anything going wrong in the Church or there are bad decisions being made such as a someone entering the tomb without having enough faith or is making bad decisions for the Christian Church, then simply Fire won't show. Just like the old testament if you read. These are signs from God to his people. .
A priest can't enter. Only the assigned Patriarch. The choice of this Patriarch must be very wise and he must be pure. He is coming in close contact with the Holy spirit.
Read more about Crusaders and you will know why Holy Fire did not show.
Also, read more in the old testament about the "Arc of the Covenant". Only assigned people enter it and If any one entered it with impurity, it would result in immediate death from God. Close contact with God was powerful in the old testament.

 

So let's say it was staged (which it appears to be). Do you still believe God played a roll in it? How about scriptures predicting current events but depicting angels vs. corporate criminals having a hand in it?

I know all about religious brainwashing, so please no answer about "just believe"

How literally do you really take the Bible and do you believe that looking deeper into science is "evil" as in "the tree of knowledge" cannot be approached.

Curious.

Thanks.


I cannot control what grown ups believe. But personally speaking, I consider teaching something like this as truth to children, there should be a law against it.
What's the difference between this baby's dad:
[video=youtube;x4c_wI6kQyE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4c_wI6kQyE[/video]

and someone who punishes or threatens punishment to a child for using their mind?

At what point do you doubt and ask questions? There are even passages in the Bible stating false "miracles" being used to deceive people.

There's no doubt the Bible talks about a lot of things we're seeing today. But people using common belief to their own advantage is not a miracle. It's a phenomenon everyone from this or the previous century should be prepared for. Unless of course you believe that all knowledge is evil. In that case, there shouldn't even be webmaster forums and we should all just pray and ask God to miraculously reveal to us the button to push to generate more links and better adsense revenue.

 

Someone who believes in God does not need to do crazy stuff to show it. If God really exists, then He will know how strong is your faith. Letting some psycho brainwash you to do insane stuff to prove that you believe in God, is idiocy.

 

Thank you. This illustrates a good point. We Christians do not really need to stage anything or proof anything because our religion is based on faith.

 

Again, before false accusations, answer this:

1) How could they stage something that has never been discovered & outside of human boundaries?
2) Does the bible allow Christians to do such things? If it was a fake act, then its considered a sin- literally. So, will Christians fall into a sin to prove something to others?
3) You are Jewish yourself. Tell me, if you don't believe this then you shouldn't believe the burning Ambush (Moses) in the old testament. So Are you denying your old testament?

 

There's a big difference between ruach hakodesh (the spirit of Gd) and what made it into the Bible. Scripture back in those days was what CNN is today.

Some is true, some is false, a lot is misleading for political purposes.

Try entering a political rally opposing the status quo and compare the rally to the coverage it gets in the media.

There's a truth which those who were there usually keep to themselves and there is the version they believe the general public can handle.

A lot of the Torah has similarities to proven historical figures such as Pharao Tuthmosis (Moses?).

I know all the stories that made it into scripture. Now I'm more interested in finding out what I don't know.
Is it evil to ask those questions and punishable?

I don't know the answers either. But it would be liberating if more people discussed these things openly as if we don't, charlatans will be empowered to use fear to control people.

 

The reason of this thread was to discuss this openly like intelligent people. I wanted to hear different opinions from various religions to see what kind of mentality is used if a proof was given?
I'm not sure which kind of questions were you referring to but its never punishable/evil to ask for understanding. Never.
If you suddenly try to speak with an Atheist about your religion, they switch on to "Don't try to brainwash me" mode.
Christianity had a lot of enemies and will continue to do so...but the words of God will remain.

 

From what I see, both atheists and religious people act quite similar.
One side doesn't want to consider the Bible even when ancient scripture screams similarities to current events while believers tend to throw the faith card in whenever it gets too hot

But the reason for that is IMO polarization in society and those who benefit from it.

I'm sorry, but most Christian pastors I have spoken to never had much more to say than "Just pray about it" when you brought up something they couldn't answer.

That doesn't make Gd existent or non existent, but it questions the need for organized religion in the first place.

And where in the Bible does it state building churches and asking for donations is the way to go?

I recall reading about giving your tenth to the poor.

Isn't money the root of all evil?

Then ask yourself who in the religious communities controls it.

Follow the dots. It never fails. Where there is monetary gain, someone else protects it. And what better way than to back things up with scripture and guard it with the suggestions that doubt causes eternal damnation?


But when it comes down to it, people believe or disbelieve what they want to.

And they repeat as fact or lie what they choose to. And judging people by what I see today, I assume they were the same back then.

So who do I trust? Me.

 

Yes, Money is the root of all evil. It can easily spoil anyone who don't control it and use it wisely.
The bible does mention donations. If Churches are not built, where will the Christians pray? It does have to sustain as the population increases.
Also, ask yourself Who are the poor people? The Donations not only go to poor Christians but also to poor Atheists, Muslims and others.
Any Christian who puts money in front of God or any pastor who is doing it for "business" ( I have seen a lot of them in the states unfortunately), then simply they are not following the words of God and deceiving nobody except themselves.

One powerful verse can summarize all this "Freely you have received, freely give". The blessing from God is free and anyone can accept it. There shouldn't be any profit made from it.
Also, if a pastor gives you "Just pray about it", they might be doing it out of faith or simply they don't know the answer. In this case, you don't have enough faith so "Just pray about it" won't help much.
I am not a pastor but I am familiar with all aspects of my religion. I always ask God for wisdom to answer your questions and I would be happy to answer if you have any direct questions.

 

Form your wiki extract:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Fire#Criticism

Possibility a chemistry trick for priests gain the minds of the masses. Practices like theses have been running since the dark ages. You'll need to disprove this in order to claim it as some sort of divine intervention.

 

Someone already posted about this earlier, however..
Is this your excuse? "Possibly a Chemistry trick"? So, the Christian priests who devoted most of their lives to God exceeded the scientific knowledge & noble prize winners that spend most of their lives in the lab analyzing Chemistry?

Hmm... I'm sure if it was a chemistry trick, then it would have been discovered by now. Discovering Light without heat emitted = conserving energy and using much more less power has to be the best discovery of the century... don't you think?

 

Actually, First Timothy chapter 6 verse 10 says "The love of money is the root of all evil", which is quite a different thing.

Why am I always schooling Muslims on Islam and Christians on Christianity? What is it about religion which makes people feel that research and study are unnecessary?

The Old Testament focusing on tithing (giving 10%), the New Testament is move about love and giving everything you can give.

The Old Testament tithing however, was for both church and state, as the two were intertwined in those times. (Except when Israel was getting it's butt kicked by it's more well-organized neighbors.)

Outdoors, at home, ... at school (just kidding!).

 

Will,

It's quiet nice of you to notice. I also hinted it in my next sentence that you cropped
But when it gets to loving money...that's when Greed comes in and its difficult to control.

Before you school anyone, you still have not given any direct answer to the subject of this thread.

Giving everything with love. Its not about throwing piles of cash. But we do still give 10% to God through the Church and We do care about helping the poor.

 

Read back in the thread.

 

Its funny how similar old school Jews and new school Islamists are. Wandering the desert thinking they are gods chosen people, starting sh*t with all their neighbors. I suppose the real difference is the one you cited above. Every time the Jews got their ass kicked, they assumed it was because they fell out of favor with god. Islamists get their ass kicked constantly, and yet they never seem to feel god has lost any love for them. If god is so great, and Muslims are gods chosen people, why do Palestinians waste their time crying to a pack of Atheists in the west about their condition? You'd figure prayer would be enough.

 

My excuse for what? also I find your statements a little condescending as a lot of good men and women have devoted there entire lives to scientific R&D for humanity's benefit. As I asked earlier your need to disprove the theories put forward regarding the Holy Fire, thus by doing so you would inevitably prove it as a genuine phenomena.

This is known as exercising a little old philosophy called empirical wisdom, ie scientific reasoning - something that brought us out of the dark ages!