The day Israel used a boy aged 13 as a Human Shield

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lets start with 1 and 3, the easy ones:

(1) The supervision of the Islamic holy sites is already de-facto in Islamic hands. This should stay in this way. I personally wouldn't mind if soverignity of east jerusalem will be in muslim hands, although the Israeli public is not united in this issue.
In this case freedom and tolerance to all other religions must be hold !! ! As we all know, tolerance to other religions is not exactly something in which Muslims worldwide have a very good reputation... So I guess they will have to change their ways, but this is possible ofcourse. The "king" just has to give the right orders.

(3) Most naturally. I supported the withdrawal from Gaza (But My "thank you" was 8,600 rockets in 4 years and the establishment of an Islamic fundamental regime), and I also support the withdrawal of most settlements even by tomorrow unilaterally. They have no place and they are immoral.

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Now we get to the problem, 2:

This is out of the question as far as the Israeli side is concerned. From the left to the right.

A "right" is an unsuitable word. In 1948, the palestinian went to the casino and sit on the black jack table: they bet all their chips on the annihilation of the state of Israel, which was 1 day old at the time, with the help of the surrounding Arab countries, who were luckily as incompetent as they were. Too bad for them, that the dealer drew a blackjack ---> they were defeated. If they won in 1948 and Israel would have been destroyed, jews would have never got a "right to return" from them. If you go to the casino and lose in blackjack, you don't have a "right" to ask for your money back.

And now I get to the important point, the only practical way out of this mess:

This is the solution most Israelis support (more than 80% according to Thursday's poll!).
But this is what Israel gives. Imad always talks about what Israel should do and what Israel should give. But never about what should the Palestinians do on their side.
So, what the palestinians give in return for this MUST be:

• (1) No further demands of any kind - conflict is over.
• (2) A recognition that the state of Israel is the home of the jewish people:
  
  This is simply not true. http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE53Q2ZU20090427
  Not only Abbas is against Israel's right to exist, Imad is against Israel's right to exist as well, in a previous thread he said that: "Israel does not belong in this region".
• (3) As precaution measure, at least in the first 5 to 10 years, "Palestine" is a demiliterized state which can not make alliances with Israel's enemies (or the last and only enemy which will be left in that case,) - Iran.
• (4) Education of children that "death is sweet", "jews are sons of apes and pigs" etc', should be immediately stopped.

This is of course Israel's favorit option... pay money and forget about them. But this is not realistic: Nobody wants the Palestinians. What was stopping arab countries from given them citizenship until now? They didn't gave them citizenship because Israel didn't compensate them? does this makes sense?
In Kuwait and Lebanon they are abused and prosecuted. In egypt there are only 30,000 Palestinians in a country of more than 60 millions, but they will never get a citizenship. Only in Jordan, because they are the majority(!), they can a live normal life, as long as they do not oppose the king. (true imad?)
Actually, (3) and (4) are the solutions of the extreme right wing in Israel! They say: "Palestinian state? There IS already a palestinian state, its called Jordan, and the rest of the Palestinians should be deported there, leave Israel arab-free as in the days of the bible". I am wore a big smile on my face when I read this Irony that you were proposing part of the solution of the Israeli religious nationalist extreme right wing. maybe they are right after all?

LOL. what are you talking about? inta majnoon? Nobody is returning from home to where he escaped from racism and prosecutions...

Imad, Official Israel and the Israeli Public is putting only one option on the table, which is no. 2.
If the circumstances were ready, then there could have been peace by tomorrow. But you know and I know, that the majority of the palestinians resist this solution. (and if you wish to refresh your memory, refer to the quotes and links in my previous post). They prefer solution no. 1, which Israel will never accept.

To Summarize:
This is the top issue, the most important and difficult one, of the conflict.
Right of Return:
Palestinians: "YES" (= Israel has no right to exist as home for the jewish people).
Israel: "NO".
The moment that the Palestinians leaders will give up on the "right of return" which you stated as option 1, "Palestine" will be founded in less than 1 year in an area equal to the 1967 territories in size.

But unfortunately, the Palestinians are not walking in this direction. Apart from horrible TV broadcasts which I posted here several times, the even more important demonstration is by going throught the official school textbooks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_textbook_controversy

See also:
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1A1-D912NK083.html



And to conclude, a tip for you:
Stop using the words "steal" and "illegal", besides from being pretty meaningless if not stupid, they are suitable for a common chat in the vegetable market of amman, they have no place in an academic, practical discussion.

 

now if we leave the baseless negativity on both side we see that peace is very much a possibility.
i think we should have a good mediator between the two people and i think we have a great one.
and he should not allow them to talk about each other. that is what f--cks it up.
please only talk about issues with intention of finding solutions.
my plan works.
and the order of the steps that i suggest will make it possible.
key point. next time that obama brings up the saudi plan, israel should ask for money for palestanian housing and maybe even for takeover of islamic sites. tell the saudis to put up. what do you ask for now? why don't you come and visit. pllllllleassssssssssse
@chaos-do you know what guarantees israel's security. a successful economically stable new palestine.
@imad-i think new palestine would need a housing authority much more than an army atleast for the first 10 years. learn from japan
as far as the other stuff like books and maps i see no problem.
israel being a jewish nation, i want to know why is it an issue? why does israel need palestanians to decide what country they should have?
as far as finalizing all claims i agree totally. returning the deeds to israel symbolizes that.
all agreement in writing within 2 years. implementation to start within 1 year [start before finalizing the agreement]and all steps being finalized within 7-10 years because of the housing issue.
any other issues ?
ps. you don't even have to like each other.

 

Palestinians did not go to any casino, and did not gamble their own country, they been in their country when powers much more they could handle came and kicked them out, using lies, and sometimes funny false claims, like God became a real estate agent and promised to sell us this land, if we been nice, of course they never been nice, and hardly they believe in God even,

but if I want to bet as a Palestinians, and I m serious here, not prejudice or anything, I won't be in a rush to make peace with Israel, at the same time I won't be in a rush to make war, will wait, few days, Israel alone will start to scream for its own destruction, if you know what I mean.

Arabs, especially Palestinians, are too stubborn, much more than you can ever imagine, and really, they waited 60 years, and can wait another 600.

 

to like "Israelis" now it means to like racism, hatred, injustice, I do not think anybody who knows them - not only Arabs or Palestinians - would like them as they are now.

Palestinians would love to learn from Japan if they had Japan's enemy then, which is USA, but Palestinians have an enemy who invented a story of a national home, using lame excuses, and came with one intention, to erase their country from the map, and replace it with a foreign entity, foreign in everything, nothing of it belongs to the region, not the color of its inhabitant, not the traditions, not the language, not the culture, not the history, nothing .. and claimed that this land belongs to them,

of course a fool only can agree with this, but it is very simple to know that they were lying, and just wanted to steal, illegally of course, cos never heard about a legal robbery, the proof, is in Argentina, and others countries they had as plan B in case they could not steal Palestine for any reason, their choice, unfortunately for Arabs, fortunately for Argentina and others, fall on Palestine, if they are honest in their claims, a person would ask, why they had alternative locations, else than Palestine as plan B?

Palestinians, never accepted else than their country, while these Zionists gangs and whatever illegal immigrants they dragged behind them like cattle, were ready to accept else than Palestine, so why not now?

to allow them to have their state in 1948, is not a right they have, its a right Palestinians gave up to be able to live in peace, if that was not enough, nothing else will be enough, and take it from me, Palestinians do not want that peace in which they are asked to give up Palestine, whether you ask them nicely, or by force, they will never give it up to these gangs.

 

I have to admit that 1 realistic, practical, even peaceful post from Imad was way beyond my expectations.
Here we have good old Imad again.

If you read my posts and Imad posts, especially these two and another one I quoted, a very important point should become clear and eminent to you:
(1) I (and the people of my country) support the establishment of a Palestinian state from the belief, that the Palestinians have a right on this land, just as we do. Our right to live in this land is Indisputable, but we are aware that we are not alone: another people shares this right with us.
(2) Imad (and his Palestinian people) refute Israel's right to exist. He always tried to undermine its right to exist on false moral, historical, and religious grounds. It is not just an argument about the borders, Jerusalem, or the amount of compensation. This is just a reflection of the education he received of which I have talked in detail before: jews are the sons of apes and pigs, they conspired with the west to screw the innocent Palestinians, and have no right on this land WHAT SO EVER.

So Pizzaman, just as you were starting to think that we are making some progress and something might work, Imad comes and smashes reality in your face Now you know perfectly well how we in Israel feels after each negotiations round that fails: We stick to our offer, the only one that we can make, and the palestianians make sure not to walk in this direction. They do the easy thing instead: why change their traditional positions (=rejection of Israel) although 60 years have passed? they will keep on suffering from their own free will

years, until we will succeed to defeat Israel and make it disappear.

This will not happen Imad, Israel is strong and grows stronger every year. Your only change to beat the casino you had was in 1948. You made your gamble, you lost and its over, you won't get your money back.
Now you have to change the CD, put a new one, something more suitable to 2009.

 

as I said before, Israel has no right to exist as apartheid, terrorist and aggressor regime, and this is not something I decide or you decide, in fact it is not a "right", an apartheid, terrorist, aggressor, and colonial regime like Israel which thrive on wars and which started by stealing lands from Palestine and neighbors, will have one natural end: cease to exist.

 

Thank you Imad.
Pizzaman? a deep feeling of disappointment and despair? yea, I know how you feel.
welcome to the middle east!

 

np, I have no idea who gave Zionists a wrong idea about being welcomed in Middle East as occupiers, and oppressors, so they later get a disappointment feeling for not being welcomed, you should blame those who gave you that wrong idea.

 

hmmmmm.... Thank you, again, for helping me prove pizzaman my point.
Pizzaman don't miss anything written above! welcome to the middle east!

 

np again, it is so simple, in very simple words so you can understand, you can't steal it all, Palestinians were somehow ok to let you keep 50%+ of what Zionists have stolen, Israel's reply was nah, we want to keep it all and if possible steal more in future from neighbors, in what so-called (Great Israel State) which will stay a dream that will never happen.

so I feel it is very important for Palestinians leaders now, to withdraw their recognition in Israel and get back fully to armed struggle, since they are already being killed almost everyday, and since their offer been rejected, it does not make sense to keep putting it on the table on every occasion.

 

Thank you again ! ! !
Pizzaman, you joining the Israeli lobby now?

 

anytime, it looks like your tounge got tied, and you have nothing to say, except "thank you very much Imad", and "can you read this pizaman?"

@ Pizzaman feel free to join Israeli, most westerners proved that they are so easy to be deceived to support terrorist and criminal regimes by supporting Israel, many did, but it did not make Palestinians fall to the same lies, and give up their country to these gangs.

@ Chaos, no need to thank me again, if I were you, I would start thinking in finding another place to "buy" notice that i said to BUY, don't try to steal others properties again and say God gave it to you, or you will be in this again,

as an atheists you should feel so ashamed of what your people has done lol, but you seem like ok with it, if it will mean a free house, even if knowing it is on the account of some others who live in a camp probably till now, see that's why it is very hard for some Palestinians to see Israelis as humans, because they never showed any humanity, in the contrary, they showed they are able to get so low to a point that allows them to kill Palestinian kids for their organs.

the lengthy post I made earlier, says it all, Israel is not interested in any solution that will limit its ability to steal more, not only lands, and natural sources, but also how can they steal more organs if Palestinians got their own state?

 

@imad
i can safely assume that there was a part of the plan that you do not like.
can you tell me what part of it so maybe we can find a different way of dealing with it.
@imad and @ chaos. most of what you guys say is the usual useless stuff that you always say. it is old and tired. it is time to look very carefully to see if there is a way to making peace work. me along with everyone on the board are fully aware of the problems that exists in reaching a peace agreement in ME. there is no point of saying the same thing over and over again. unless you think we are all stupid. furthermore there is nothing so special about your situation except that it has been going on for such a long time. THIS IS WAR. WAR IS BAD. OPPOSITE WAR IS PEACE. PEACE IS GOOD. there is a solution to every problem. one must try hard to find it.
now i am going to teach you something about negotiation and art of deal making.
one must always allow his opponent/partner to feel satisfied and have the ability to survive and prosper. otherwise there is no deal. and no deal means no profit.

 

plan is easy, all 1967, right of return, Palestinians refugees as I said are free to get back if they want, this is sacred, they can be given other options, they can choose these other options, but if no other option convinced them, then they keep their right to return to their properties which they been forced to leave it, as I made in my lengthy post earlier, but if you say they can't get back, then you will be supporting the enemy, and this will make you an enemy for Palestinian people.

they will get back, whether it took a year, or 600 years, as I mentioned earlier, but they will never drop that right.

 

the way i see it. there are three options that palestanians might want to pursue.
a- continuation of the state of war[ if this is the case then this conversation is useless].
b-a single state solution [if this is the case then again this conversation is useless and peace process should be replaced with another goal and palestanians have to come and declare that]
c-creation of state of palestine in a specified land [ if this is the choice that palestanians want to make then we can continue.]
and in this context i speak
the palestanian people have the right to return to palestine. if collectively and democratically they decide to accept a specified region of land as palestine then they can exercise their option freely. the creation of housing facilities that i mentioned are to facilitate this possibility. it is not to take away their right of return but to allow them to exercise it. i do not think right of return is meant as a return to their property. property can be compensated. just to their country, and this right can be satisfied.
given the current situation in ME, if they do not like my interpretation of the right of return they have to choose option a or b.
i think this is a realistic view of the situation. if i were the president of US, Israel or the representative of the Palestanian people, i would present the three choices to all the people involved on both side. a referendum open to all palestanians and a separate to all israelis. clearly outlining the available options and letting them decide.
this would allow the process to go on with the support of people and would be successful, and if it does not have the support of people then it is doomed anyway.

 

You mean there are some people out there that still believe in "Jewish Fairy Tales"? God's chosen, God gave it to us, the Sea opened up, and other b.s. of this sort.

BTW, Westerners do not support Israeli terrorism. It is their corrupted governments and terrorist lobbies (read: APAC) that make that policy and spread false propaganda and disinformation.

Any intelligent human being knows that Israel is #1 in Terrorism, Apartheid and Violation of Human Rights.
United Nations made it CLEAR SO MANY TIMES through their resolutions. Do we need more proof than that? The WORLD has SPOKEN! As to governments, we all know that they do not always represent the will of the People.

And BTW, Santa Claus really DID bring me my Christmas gifts last December.

 

pizzaman, thanks for you concern.
I already said everything I had to say, everything that Israelis support and are willing to offer.
As you can see, Imad rejects a-priori Israel's right to exist. I can't see how the region can move forward before the Palestinians accept our right to exist as the home of the jewish nation in any kind of borders.

 

Yes, we are making peace

An AFP Photo of a Palestinian boy stands up near an Israeli soldier patrolling the occupied West Bank city of Hebron on August 26, 2009

 

very expressing, can summarize the whole situation, the IOF soldier does not see a kid, he is seeing, two kidneys, a liver, a heart, and doing quick calculations: $160,000 x 2 + 150,000 + $200,000 my share is 50% bluh bluh, oh my I will retire soon, thanks God for making us chosen.

while the kid is: WTF?



Israeli Army T-Shirts Mock Gaza Killings

 

hey, you forgot the retinas from the eyes. I would say that's another 50,000$.

I will not retaliate with pictures or videos, you have seen enough.
my goal was to talk practical politics and explain pizzaman the situation, as he thought he had a clue.
I believe that now he knows better: Israel offers the maximum it can offer, Palestinians reject and continue to educate to make sure that the next generation will reject it as well.
This is the present situation of the conflict in a nutshell.