The day Israel used a boy aged 13 as a Human Shield

LOL Imad you are the best!

 

yes of course, because they are the side that this crime happened to, so they are the best ones to know, simply from seeing the bodies of their sons coming with huge stitches, and filled with cotton,

and since they are a part in this, they can't be called "unbiased" I would refuse an investigation done by Arabs, so if the results came against Israel, the excuse of "bias" won't be used to dismiss it.

this is common sense 101, not sure what was so funny, oh wait, ridiculing? to dismiss the charges?

its becoming old, can't you see?

the point is, why Israel is wasting this chance to discredit Arabs, they always love to do so, and this chance comes to them, instead of taking it, they just reject it while crying "antisemitism, antisemitism"?

 

Don't worry imad, you are doing a great job of discrediting Arabs all by yourself.

 

Is this why you are crying antisemitism always?

 

and, Imad, this is an anti-arab statement. It involves prejudice against arabs. calling all arabs "biased, dishonest morons" is not nice of you.

I know that there are couple of arabs who are not 100% sure Israel did it.
From the Palestinian authority who said nothing official on the matter, then Saeed (سعيد), my arab friend from University times, who thinks that the Swedish tabloid article is a disgrace to the civilized world. And next we can mention the Israeli-Arab members of the knesset who quite exceptionally did not "demand an investigation", something that did not happen with any other allegation towards Israel I can recall!

Thanks again for helping Israel in this forum.
I also would like to say that I reject your views on Arabs calling them "biased, dependent and dishonest morons who think like a herd of cattle"

hilarious

 

in the contrary, thank you for showing your real, and how desperate you are trying to change the topic to anything else than the topic, it does not need much mind power to know that neither the Arabs, nor Israel can be an unbiased party in such investigation, and of course, it does not need your wishful plus hateful thinking, that can't even take a clear statement by me as it is, but feels the need to insert your own words and interpretations to it, then laugh at the result you came with,

it would be easier to go to a jokes site if you are that much desperate to laugh,

now, if this is too hard for you to understand, I don't know what else I can do to help you, try to go to school or something

can we get back to the topic now, why would Israel reject an investigation when it can support Israel's claims about the journalist, the newspaper, Sweden, Europe, Palestinians and Arabs, of being antisemitic?


by the way, you may need to know something about what you are talking about, before you talk about it, I hope this will make sense to you, if not try the following example:

you said:

Arabs members of the Parliament already spoke about it, investigated, and demanded more explanations about it, this is your friend Tibi:

 

your quote from www.islamonline.net on which your whole thesis is based (and is the only thing i read in your post) is worthless. This is since www.islamonline.net is not a reliable source, I wouldn't even trust the date on the site to be correct. I asked you 1000 times already, not to quote from "agenda" and hate sites. This is why you "forgot" to mention the source of your quote to be islamonline.net.
You have a very low expectation from yourself as far as your "academic" honesty and debate neutrality are concerned. Oh wait! actually you never claimed to be neutral and academic, on the contrary......

 

I would love it if you linked my posts to their origin

also, about Tibi, I would love it too if you answered my 10000 questions, are you saying Tibi did not say so, and it is just a lie?

 

i think israel might want to make all of their police files in regard to this issue public. i found another one. this does not seem to be a religious thing, but a social economic situation.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/935092.html

 

These are two Israeli arabs who abused other Israeli arabs for trafficking their organs.
This is from 2007, another Isolated case. If your point is that there is crime in Israel - yes there is. Every couple of years an organ trafficking case pops up. not that amazing I think, no?
If you are trying to say that it is somehow different than organ trafficking in asia or east europe, then you are right - It is a lot less severe, after all Israel is a country where there is a law and a courthouse.

As far as human rights are concerned in the "civil aspect", we have a much worse problems such as the abuse women from poor former USSR countries who are promised a nice salary and living, and find themselves enslaved in the booming Tel Aviv sex industry as prostitutes and drug addicts. But in recent 2 years there has been progress in getting the women trafficking bastards as well, for the first time they made a "witness protection program" like in the US and some were given a permanent residence permit in exchange for testifying against the women traffickers.

If you find Israel so very interesting, you are welcome to come for a visit. I am self-employed and I will glaldy take a week off and show you around. Believe me, you will know much more than you can imagine. Israel is a fascinating place - so many absurds, colors, and religions coexist (or at least try to) in such a small place.
For example... Have you heared of the Baha'i religion? If somebody would point a gun to my head and force me to choose a religion, I guess this would be my choice. It is a very nice peaceful religion, although it descended from Islam Their holiest place is, of course, in Israel (have a look). 150 full time gardners work in these unbelievable gardens

 

i speak about chinese and pakistanis also. we must speak about abuse of human being wherever we see it.
thanks for the invite. i do not think i can afford the vacation this year. as far as my interest in israel, i tell you i have always found the israeli/palestanian conflict interesting. i actually believe that peace can be achieved within a year. but people have to stop looking at things the way they do. it is my escape. sounds crazy i know, but i have a solution to every aspect of this conflict. it is that nobody is really interested in finding the solution. both side are just trying to make themselves look good and the other side look bad. such a shame for the whole region. an israeli arab block can be more important than europe within five years. and if you include iran maybe sooner.

 

So come next year, unless Achmedinjad will have other plans . You are welcome anytime!

From 1948 to 2009, the OVERALL death toll among Israelis is approx. 24,000 people. (this includes all conflicts of all kinds - wars with the neighbours and palestinian conflict). At the palestinian side, it is much less. Last year, some 500 Israelis died in road accidents. The number of road accident victims in Israel surpass the casualities of the conflict.
Compare with the genocide in darfur - 250,000 , the genocide of rowanda - 800,000 etc'. Yet the genocide in darfur is mentioned once in a while, whereas the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which is of negligible scale (as far as degree of farware and death toll is concerned) is mentioned on hourly basis on every news edition.
It is fascinating:
The first jewish state in the homeland of the jewish people, at the expense of the arab/muslim nation + Jerusalem being the 3rd holiest place of the world's most spread religion..
The self-made world's best high-tech weapons against rockets which are actually a kind of firecrackers.
The world's best tank against children with stones.
The abuse of the conflict by the arab dictatorships to distract the attention of their citizens from their poverty and unite them against the "Zionist enemy".
It is the west being torn between the passion to embrace a democracy (in some cases even with a lot of bad consciousness due to the past) and the need to keep the prices of oil under control.

Israel, being a democratic country, can not block media coverage of the events, as is the case when such events (or much worse events) occur in one of our neighboring countries. So when a Palestinian boy is accidently (or not, for imad) killed, it makes it to the headlines, but if in a village in Darfur 5,000 men and women were butchered today, nobody could care less, the media can not access, and end of story. This conflict is in one way or another connected with EVERY ASPECT the political and economical reality on earth in recent 100 years. This is what makes it so sexy and so widely-reported, a fact which does not contribute to solving it!

During my phD in Switzerland there was one time that I will never forget. I was driving to work and I listened to the Swiss news on the radio. After the usual report from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (what a totally negligible israeli member of the parliament thinks about a totally negligible wounding of a settler), they reported about a 14-day long strike of the teachers in Bulgaria. This made me so furious, because exactly at that time, the strike of the high-school teachers in Israel was in its 21 day.... but Israel is not interesting when it comes to education, only when it comes to the palestinians...

If there were more people like you and me here, then maybe, but there aren't. The Israelis are not ready for peace, and sadly and beyond perception, the Palestinians are even less ready than the Israelis for the necessary compromise, which will necessarily mean their defeat - in one way or another. If you want to know more why I say so, let me know (here's a quick example)
No "magic formula" will solve this conflict in 1 year! it is nonsense! As you implied, the problem is not in the lack of creative solutions, there has been tons of them offered. The problem is with the two parties involved in the conflict and their stubbornness, fears, selective historical memory, lies, mutual mistrust, emotional charges (which keep accumulating), the interests of SO MANY third parties (i.e. Iran which will do everything it can to prevent Israel-Palestinian peace from happening!!! it is doing it right now from within the Palestinian territories!). If you spice it with the raise of extreme fundamental Islam in the palestinian society, a new phenomena (the palestinians were never so religious as they are today), and the raise of the nazi nationalism another the most extreme of the jewish settlers, it is getting even more complicated as time goes by.

The peace process which started in 1993 and have moved the region big steps forward in the right direction, will finally bring peace, no doubt about that. The locomotive has started. It will move very very slowly, but its unstoppable. Peace WILL come. The question is, how much more blood and misery is needed. Its hard to guess. My guess is something like 10-15 years from now, at best, and I hope that Israel will live to see that day.

I am sorry, told you already, you DO NOT understand Iran. If you honestly think that if Iran was a christian or buddhist country it would behave in exactly the same manner as it behaves (as you suggest in other words couple of days ago), you simply do not understand Iran. Sorry.
Iran could enjoy prosperity and tons of influence in the region if it came closer to the west, like Egypt, Saudia, Jordan, Iraq (unwilligly...) and even Libya did! Iran has no interest to seek and destroy Israel, neither in the declarative nor operative sense, other than....... you know what.... told you already but you insist you know better! Did you know that after the revolution, Iran renamed itself from "the republic of Iran" to "the Islamic republic of Iran?"

I conclude with a nice children TV show from the very sane and non-violent Iran. Check out the three gays in green shirts. LOL. I almost died laughing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4e8FpFkBRM
but the words are not as funny:
"even with a tiny stone, the Palestinian child goes to fight for his country"..... think that this is meant for Iranian children. and think what is the real purpose behind this show.

p.s. what happened to the pizzalady in your avatar?

 

step one: stop trying to solve the conflict. instead try to find an agreement to end all combat and hostility for solving the conflict. find a middle ground that you can both accept but are not happy with. conflict of wants disguised as need can remain.

step two:there is nothing unusual here. this is the case in all history. the combatant hate each other, kill each other. and then they have peace. almost always even after peace they hate each other. they will not trust each other and so on. you make a mistake between peace and friendship. friendship will have to wait and will come after peace. i have never heard of making peace between friends

step three:trying to find an agreement on who is responsible is a futile act when you try to make peace. stop that. work on find that middle ground. there is always one.

step four:no sir. 10 or 15 years is not acceptable. i hope the leaders of the world make this clear to your leaders and he will make it clear to your people.
a peace agreement must be reached within 2 years maximum. if not then you should annex all the territories and make all the land israel. and all arabs can also become israelis.
you can not ask millions of people to live miserably indefinitely. and no transfer.

i did not own it. i had to remove it

 

so Chaos, I see you still did not link the two quotes of me to their original posts, one was:

israel has no right to exist as apartheid regime.

why you only quoted "Israel has no right to exist" without the rest

are you that much desperate?

go ahead, link them..

can't or too embarrassed cos you tried to mislead? no problem, I can do it for you, that was the post:

you only quoted: "Israel has no right to exist" why?

 

great on the paper, impossible to implement.
The Israeli public is very sick and tired of the violence, so is the palestinian public - except for the Hamas (according to its own declarations, well.. you know). Absurdly enough - they voted for Hamas and brought it to power.
There was a good step made towards reducing the amount of mutual violence, and we made it unilateraly - "the segregation wall", or "separation fence " as we call it, has undoubtly saved plenty of Israeli civilian lives from the Palestinian terror, and most certainly double as much that would have lost their lives in the Israeli retaliations. This wall is a nice absurd: it were the Hamas terrorists who built it, and instead of ensuring many years of further bloodshed, the wall will play a key role in the peace that will come in a dozen years or so.

There is a lot which is unusual here!

You are making the same mistake over and over again. The middle east is not north Ireland, and not Europe.
In the 1870 Prossian French war, Germany And France marched to battlefield with mozart in the background. Signing the peace treaty, Mozart was played in the backgruond again. Mozart is played in the concert halls of the peaceful German-Franch alliance of today.

Israel signed a peace treaty with Egypt in 1978. No Mozart is heard in the region until today: indeed there has been not a single act of hostility between the two states since, but Egyptians for example treat their fellow countrymen who fell in love and married an Israeli woman (even if he is arab) as the worst of traitors. The egyptian academy (or at least what they call academy) is boycotting israeli poets, scientists, etc'. Israelis need a VISA to enter Egypt, but not vice versa. The Islamic opposition in Egypt, from religious reasons (and I know you doubt it) is always promoting ideas of military confrontation with Israel. When the voices get too loud, the Egyptian "government" plays a video on TV of the 1973 egyptian chief of staff who ... mentions as "by the way"... that if the Israelis wanted, they could have occupied cairo. To frighten their own people a bit from supporting a military confrontation with israel... this is really happening!
We do not have this thing, that you could parallel with the Mozart of the Germans and the French! We drink wine, they don't. We are democratic, they aren't. We love money and prosperity, they love mohhamed and the quran. The hate preached against Israel starts at home, continues in the school and mosques, and finishes in the TV and politics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#Egypt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_Arab_world#Egypt (just google egyptian antisemitism for a lot more!)
With the U.S. Saudi relations its more or less the same: U.S. brings money and investments to Saudia, and in return they get hate and volunteers for the 9/11. Did the French boardcast children shows like this against the German even in the most bitter days of battle? no they didn't! they knew that mozart times will come!

You have to understand, that taking precedences you know in history and applying the same logic under the assumption that "all people are alike and all conflicts are alike", is wrong! The people of the middle east are not the people of ireland of germany.
The assumption you apply in conjuction with your premise and logical analysis is not valid, and hence the conclusion you draw from your analysis are simple wrong!

I totally agree! This is why I always say my fellow countrymen: fuck them, they can't even arrange 10 people together who agree on something a build a public garden. We can not work with the Palestinians as the Palestinians don't know what they want and are capable of nothing as a collective (look at the conditions in the refugee camps, even after 40 years has passed and the palestinians got billion in western aid --> the money goes to the pockets of the corrupt officials, and the terrorists only!).
Instead, we should look ourselves in the mirror and see where are we being injust and immoral. An example would be the settlements. I help to evacuate the settlers from Gaza and I will help to evacuate them from all of the west bank. I think that we should continue to unilateraly separate ourselves from the palestinians. I also think that if this will happen, they will butcher one another for long years (as I expected that will happen in Gaza, ask all my friends!), and then after they get tired of it, there is a good chance that they will also reconciliate with us
In short,
First separation, then peace, then (maybe) friendship.

Unlike the Israelis, the palestinian leaders, especially arafat, speak totally different words in English than they do in Arabic. So I will not let you see an Arabic videos of Haniyeh, Hamas leader, talking about world islamic supremacy, the worthlessness of the jew etc'. I will let you see something in English and believe me, he is restraining himself! :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhAih0PHw2M

Time 1:50'
EuroNews: "Can you imagine a day where Hamas will extend a hand to Israel?"
Haniyeh: "Hamas has always said that we are ready for a long lasting cease-fire, maybe 10 years, maybe 20. If we can have a state based on the border of 1967."
EuroNews: "And if there is a cease-fire (, and a palestinians state! chaostrivia), will there be negotiations?"
Haniyeh: "If Israel will establish a palestinian state (in the 1967 territories) and hold to the cease fire, we will surely "look for ways and means" to make it possible".

In other words, the position of Ismail Haniyeh is the following:
Israel must a-priori withdraw from all 1967 territories. Then, the Hamas will be willing to "look for ways and means" to make negotiations with Israel "possible". How generous.

This is not some guy from the vegetable market, this is their elected leader.

Do you understand now better about the huge gap between the maximum that we are willing to give (=all of the 1967 territories in exchange for no further demands from the palestinian side!), to the maximum that the Hamas, the leading palestinian force is demanding? (=an indepedent, militarized, state in the 1967 border as a precondition to be even willing to negotiate with us at all?).

Ask for Imad to tell you about the "education of the key". The keys to the houses from which they escaped (or were "encouraged to escape") in 1948 is passed from father to son. The sons are educated that one day, they will return to the same house in Jaffa or Haifa. Whereas in Israel it is a consensus: the palestinian refugees will return only to their new country, within the 1967 borders, and not to mainland Israel - which should remain the home of the Jewish people only.

Remember Imad saying that Israel has no right to exist? Imagine that he is one of the few who can read and write English in his country - so think what are you likely to hear from his landmates if you asked them in Arabic.

It is sad, but this is reality. The region is not ready yet for peace, not the Israelis, and especially not the palestinians. It will take a lot of more time. I hope that less than 1 generation but it is very likely to be even longer.

This is not Ireland, not Czechslovakia, not China, and not Germany, and not even Africa. This is the middle east and the Muslims (see threads about the glory of Islam and child marriage, honor killings, etc'), a whole new different story!!

too bad, I liked it

 

i will give both side two years to get ready . both side should stop blaming each other. i am not interested in that. very soon the rest of the world will see it my way.what does it mean not ready for peace. please!!! what is so hard to get ready for peace. give me and each other a break.

 

This means a very simple, straightforward thing !

The Palestinian people will be "ready for peace" not before the following things, common on their media, will disappear:
Palestinian TV, friday service in gaza (text to the right: "live", to the left: "palestine TV" )
children show (can you believe what you see? in north Ireland and France they had the same children shows during the wars, yea? )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8

first two videos: official TV of the "moderate" Fatah, palestinian authority.
third video: hamas TV station
fourth video: a compilation taken solely from palestinian TV.

just follow the related videos for dozens of more peace-promoting education examples.

This is the main reason why unfortunately this conflict has many bloody days ahead and is not even close to being resolved.
The videos are not edited, and the translation is EXACT (not exaggerated).


naturally, you will not see things like this in Israel , just as you won't see things like this in any democratic modern liberal country! ! !

And although we don't always act in the direction of peace, at least we sing and hope for peace.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shir_LaShalom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loEjCbSPNjw live in some kind of military social event.... the doves in the background is the symbol of peace in Judaism if you happen to know what object/animal symbolizes peace in the Islam - let me know - If such exist, I would like to know, Muslims?..., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY-11buOLiI in some kind of school ceremony....) this song turned to be the hymen of peace that we usually sing in Israel
and another one of the many "national peace songs" we sing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0hPlRvERnU note the second part of the song: in arabic. (newer version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGfkS5iyjpA)
another song... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPq3d3G51NM (school ceremony on Rabin memorial day...)

Our school children are forced to learn the lyrics of peace songs and not martyrdom songs!
Until the Palestinians will make these kind videos part of a shameful history, how could possibly be a stop of the violence? ? ? ?

 

i did not watch all of it. but i would think that they hate you, and they hate us for helping you. let me tell you that i think the day after you have a peace agreement, there will be some that hate you and would love to kill you. but either they will control themselves or the other people in their community will control them. this is always the case. all peace deals have been made under similar situation.you have made two peace with arabs and they both have hold. there is your proof. i think both israeli govt and the palestanian leadership should start getting the people ready. two years. that is all you have. the result of not having peace in this time can be catastrophic. for both your people, the region and the whole world. enough is enough. it is 60 years. you can not say they must stop hating us first. that is never the case.

 

Well, we seem to disagree. I just hope you are not missing my point.

I STRONGLY OBJECT!
As I said: no conflict in history resembles the Israel-Palestinian conflict!. that includes N. Ireland, sri lanka, georgia-russia, kosovo, africa, whatever. Nothing. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is exponentially more complicated due to the countless factors that come in play, unmatched number of factors in comparison with other conflicts.

No need to go to extreme armagedon prophecies, nothing can get more catastrophic than it is has been in recent 4 years.
In the last 4 years: more than 10,000 rockets were fired on Israel, in two wars more than 2,000 Arab/Palestinians and about 200 Israelis lost their lives, Lebanon was bombed etc'.
I presume the future will look better: They are talking about a new big round of negotiations now with obama in office, a peace within the Palestinians themselves (who sometimes hate each other more than they hate Israel), prisoner exchange deals, stopping of the west bank settlements... etc'. The Palestinians are even moving in the direction of stopping the incitement, a first condition for anything, but there is still a long way to go.

 

Oh? From the 10,000 rockets thing i was under the impression more Israeli's would have died?