The 2012 US Presidential Election - Who will run, Who will win???

Regardless of who wins the 2012 presidential election, for as long as $ influences our elections - which seems like it will never end and in fact is getting worse - the American people will still lose.

 

Did you know we are keeping live aliens in a facility underneath the Nevada desert? Feel free to do a Google search on this and you will find some information.

Did you know Elvis is still alive? Feel free to do......


Wait, I got a better idea. If you have something legitimate to add to the conversation and some evidence to back it up, then present it with the evidence (do your own research).

In the mean time, we can all look at a request that Wisconsin government employees contribute to their own pensions as the reasonable request it is. Seriously, is there any other way to look at it?

 

haha - you're hilarious...Please feel free to continue using sarcasm or snide remarks if it makes you feel smart or witty or clever somehow. I maintain that I added something legitimate, no matter how much you may try to mock it with your little examples.

I've often found that on internet forums when you post anything as 'evidence' people don't really want to hear it. Usually the response is to attack the source of the information, etc. That is the reason I refrained from posting a specific excerpt. I've found people are usually more willing to believe something if they are able to find the information themselves - that way they can look at any and all sources they are interested in looking at (and trust) before they come to a conclusion. I assumed you had the rudimentary internet search capabilities to perform this task.

But since you are asking me specifically to post, I shall oblige:

Here's a link to the Legislative Fiscal Bureau's report: http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf

The state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million. Gov. Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending. About half of that spending is in terms of tax breaks to employers, presumably to spur hiring but some say it's at levels too low to accomplish that. That may be a separate debate on its own (by which I mean effectiveness of tax breaks). But the main point is that his own policies have added to the budget, which is now apparently creating a deficit - and he wants public workers to pick up the tab for that. So seriously, there IS another way to look at it - UNreasonable request.

 

Thanks! I will!

In short, you didn't provide evidence because people tend not to believe it or attack the source, and your alternative was.... provide no evidence at all? Please.

Now was that so hard? Had you started with this, you would have completely avoided my sarcasm about failing to provide evidence to back your claims, skipping straight to my sarcasm regarding your reasoning .

A couple things. First, your post and your attachment both seem to point out Gov. Walker lowered taxes, creating a drop in tax revenues and the 137 million dollar budget deficit. I'm not sure where you got the idea that lowering taxes is the same thing as new spending, but its not. Note that I bolded the sections of your post that disagree with other parts of your post as well as your linked evidence.

Second, if you expect me or any person not working for one of those unions to shed a tear that the governor has asked them to contribute to their own retirement plans, you'll probably have better luck selling ice to Eskimos. I don't care if Wisconsin was running at a billion dollar surplus. Having extra money in the government coffers is no excuse for excessive compensation and benefits for government employees.

Maybe you missed the very loud message sent in the last election cycle, but there is a lot of demand for smaller more efficient government. If you work for one of these government Unions, I can see why you would be opposed. Seems government Union employees are the only ones really outraged by such demands.

If you want a job with unlimited income potential, my advice would be to go get a job in the private sector. The president of the US pulls down lousy $400k a year which, in my book, makes most state government salaries in excess of 100k a year hard to justify, and that isn't even considering the outrageous pensions.

Gov. Walker is being proactive. Here in California, Gov. Brown is busy polishing the brass on the Titanic.

 

Me, too!

In the private sector, the average worker moves from job to job 3 or 4 times in their life. But if you are a teacher or a government worker, you can have guaranteed employment for life regardless of how poorly you do your job.

@devTastic, when you become an adult there will come a time when you will actually have to deal with a government employee. I invite you to stay calm as that employee works with you - or not - with total and complete indifference. If someone has absolute job security, what motivation do they have to pursue excellence - let alone do the absolute minimum of their job? What if that government employee had your future in their hands and just didn't care?

There may also come a time when you become a manager and have to decide how to motivate employees. If you are a BOSS of government employees, HOW do you motivate them?

Why is it that under both Democratic and Republican Presidents, under a Congress that was led both by Democratic or Republican leaders, none of the government employees at the SEC had even the barest motivation to pursue the countless complaints about Bernie Madoff? How many lives were distroyed by indifferent government employees at the SEC? And neither Republicans nor Democrats have changed the system to catch future Madoffs.

@devTastic you have the luxury of youth to debate your opinions all you want, but each lazy government employee sucks the life out of the economy. To pay the taxes of just one government employee requires the taxes of three to five private sector employees.

 

Amazing the # of assumptions you have made about me when we have had absolutely zero interaction in or out of this forum before: "When you become an adult...", "luxury of youth", "stay calm as that employee works with you", "when you become a manager", etc. Care to enlighten me how you know all these things about me?

 

Lots of luck.....with any of their assumptions - all teachers are indifferent.

 

There is going to be alot more moving from job to job as world competition increases and jobs are stagnant. There will no longer be people working at one main job their whole life and retiring at 40 with a gold watch. They will be working all their life.

Social Security is going to become insolvent and Medicaid is super weak.

 

Where do you live? Would you mind producing some of that "information". I've lived here quite some time, through several governors.

 

Now, I've seen it all. Where are you getting your information from? The deficit in Wisconsin is 3.5 Billion Dollars, not 137 million. That 137 million number is the shortfall for the current budget, e.g., how much more money we need just to pay state employees. I'd seriously suggest trolling somewhere else. You really are speaking out of school on this one. Our deficit here has been in the Billions with a B number for more than 10 years now.

 

It's obvious from the pattern of your writing (ex: the occasional unreferenced direct object). More importantly it's the ability to not get bogged down in minutia and see and UNDERSTAND the big picture. You only get that from experiences dealing with lots and lots of people in a lifetime.

As we have already discussed elsewhere, experienced people can recognize other experienced people, period. Most importantly experienced people understand MOTIVATION and what drives people - hence, my mention of unmotivated employees.

@devTastic, In my opinion and experience, you are passionate and intelligent BUT inexperienced (which implies that you are young). This is not a criticism, but an observation. I could be wrong but I'm probably right.

I agree with you Breeze in that the teachers in Wisconsin seem to be indifferent to their students. There are still terrific teachers out there - but more and more are becoming indifferent.

I fear that you are right.

 

I think the assumptions were safe to say.
Still no response or sources presented from devTastic.
Good call!

 

Was just resisting feeding into your trolling. You stated: "The deficit in Wisconsin is 3.5 Billion Dollars, not 137 million. That 137 million number is the shortfall for the current budget, e.g., how much more money we need just to pay state employees.". Are you sure you know what YOU are talking about? How about YOU post something referencing this 3.5 billion figure. And are you sure you're not confusing the number "budget" with "deficit". Perhaps the budget is 3.5 Billion, and not the deficit.

FYI: The assumptions were all wrong

 

FYI: I've worked for nearly two decades. I've had people work under me and have dealt with the challenges of motivation so I understand them quite well. I'm not disagreeing with you in your citations of how lazy many government employees may be - have been to the DMV several times, have been to SS office to get a replacement card, etc, so I've seen all that. I've ALSO seen lack of motivation and lazyness in the private sector where I have worked my whole career. Is the level of lazyness 100% equal private vs. public? I would say no. I was never arguing that it was. None of the points you made had anything to do with what I posted. Also your statement: "To pay the taxes of just one government employee requires the taxes of three to five private sector employees." -- did you mean, taxes of 3 to 5 private sector employees to pay one government employee's salary as opposed to taxes as you noted? Because that's a big difference.

 

Seen this?
[video=youtube;zjFbMDp5Pg8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjFbMDp5Pg8[/video]
I'm starting to wonder if we are a nation of laws at all. The counter protesters showing up in Madison are doing so at their own expense, because no sick note is going to safeguard their job or secure their pay for the days they take to support Gov. Walker. These Union teachers, on the other hand, are working with doctors to perpetrate fraud against the taxpayers of Wisconsin. Not only are the taxpayers of Wisconsin not receiving the education for their children that their tax dollars are supposed to be paying for. Those taxpayers are subsidizing the criminal activities being used to to apply political pressure on the governor.

I hope they suspend the medical licenses of every last one of those doctors issuing medical opinions without conducting a real medical exam. Malpractice, fraud, or both. You decide.

 

It's a common tactic in debating to try an assert some sort of superiority - be it moral or the age/wisdom angle. But usually that doesn't get you very far. You can go on for hours about how much supposed experience you have but you failed to actually post anything factual. Your previous post and this one pretty much consists of a 'wiser than thou' attitude, and not much else substance.

You reference a "pattern of writing" -- seriously? From 2 posts before your response? Please.

"I could be wrong but I'm probably right." <--- That pretty much says it all! Kinda makes it seem like its a waste of time to even continue a dialog...

 

Not asking anyone to shed any tears I agree with your point that having extra $ does not necessarily mean you should go out and give people excessive compensation and benefits - I'm not a fan of that. Can you please post any data you have that the workers affected are indeed receiving 'excessive' compensation and benefits? And a definition of what you deem to be 'excessive' , maybe a comparison of what the same jobs are paying in the private sector?

I understand just why there is a demand for smaller more efficient government and in fact I'm a supporter of a more efficient government. I've always had a private sector job and am not a member of any government union. I believe the main thing people are opposed to in this instance is the effort to strip those public workers of their collective bargaining rights.

 

Every credible news agency is reporting the biennial Wisconsin budget deficit to be 3.1 Billion(with a B) not 136 Million(with an M). The fact you would try and spin it otherwise says a lot about the credibility of anything you have to say. If you would like a nice non-partisan summary of the numbers, it can be found here.

As I mentioned before, even if the state was running at a surplus, I can see no credible reason for excess compensation for state employees, a point you have yet to counter.

Are you so married to your political ideology that the truth is completely unimportant to you?

[Edit]

More B.S. Your own Democrat leaders have acknowledged Wisconsin union members contribute 9% to their medical plans while private sector employees contribute an average of 21%. I also appreciate you repeating the mantra used by the main stream media about "stripping these workers of their collective bargaining rights". First, collective bargaining is not a right like freedom of speech or right to bear arms. Second, Gov. Walkers plan only prohibits the use of collective bargaining for salaries above the Consumer Price Index, which is the very definition of excessive.

 

Yes, I know what I'm talking about. I live here. Where do you live?

We need 137 million to continue to run the government through the end of the current budget. (June 30th) We don't have it.

$3.6 billion is how much we are in the whole through the end of the next budgetary term/administrations budget. If you'd like me to explain the difference between budget and deficit, I would be more than happy to.

It's pretty obvious to me that you do not know what you are talking about. You're reading bunk from various news sites and cherry picking talking points out of context. Some of us live and work here, and know what's going on.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/2011-13Bills/2011_02_14_budget Adjustment Legislation.pdf
http://www.wisgov.state.wi.us/journal_media_detail.asp?prid=5622&locid=177
http://www.notinwisconsin.com/docs/Budget_Summary2.pdf

Where's your source?

 

So It's B.S. to ask you for some data that would show the disparity income + benefits = total compensation of private vs. public?