Texas Authorities Raid Polygamist Compound(400 kids taken from a polygamist compound)

IF
"consenting adults should be allowed to do whatever they want with each other"

Then
"People certainly shouldn't be given concessions because they have a religion and allowed to do things that aren't permitted to the rest of us though"

any limitation on the first part including the forbidding of polygamy must be wrong independent if the participants are religious or not.

 

Unless you know what you are talking about, I suggest you don't make crap up. I am a mormon and all of us "mormons" are disgusted by this story.

The fundamentalists are a break off of the LDS church and are pretty much despised by people like me. Daily we have to put up with ignorance and the truth is, a lot of outsiders would rather think that we are the FLDS. It is a lot more fun (I guess) to judge us based on what another sect is doing.

I would rather not stoop and start bashing anyone else's religion, so please regard this as much. I don't like my religion being mocked by the ignorant or the intolerant.

 

You remind me of another religious person here (debunk) who insists that Catholics are not Christians. If you don't know the history of your own religion then I suggest you read and learn.
The other sect is as much Mormons as you are and if your sect decided to sell out part of it's religion, so Utah can become a state, it doesn't exactly generate a lot of confidence in your sect of Mormon religion, does it?

 

You are arrogant is what the problem is. You need to be able to admit when you are wrong.

The LDS church was founded by Joseph Smith. The FLDS church was founded by Emma Smith when Joseph died because she believed that the religion should be passed through Josephs bloodline. The LDS church then continued forward with a non-Smith family member.

I believe Catholics are Christians and am a person who sees value in every religion. So again I ask you to NOT BASH others beliefs. Especially when you are getting the facts wrong!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_fundamentalist

It is not only me, it seems wikipedia has got it wrong too; or can it be that you got it wrong and the whole world is not wrong?

 

No that is all right. If you look closely it mentions Joseph at the bottom the rest is about the FLDS.

You are right that polygamy was denounced not just for statehood but because it was unlawful. We are law abiding citizens. At the time of polygamy, men were dying left and right due to the pilgrimages and murder of the saints. Joseph was trying to make it possible to ease the burdens of the many widows.

The current stories that are all over the news are about a sick group of people that were sexually abusing kids and forcibly raping women. That doesnt sound like Josephs intentions does it?

I for one cant imagine having more than one wife to take care of. I love my wife dearly and have two kids, but add to that and I would go crazy.

I would reccomend the following for the curious:
http://www.mormon.org/
and
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24018407/
for a history of polygamy.

 

By the way, I just found this article cuz I was looking at wikipedia:

http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom...nnel=f5f411154963d010VgnVCM1000004e94610aRCRD

 

I don't have anything against Mormons and all most all of them that I have meet are nice people. Your answer brings up quite interesting questions. for example when you mention polygamy was banned because it was unlawful then I wonder if religious people really believe in God, how can they allow the man to ban and change the God's command or wishes?
In regard to this sect, there is a lot of stories but I have no idea how much of it is true or not. You talk about forcibly raping women, I haven't heard anything about that but as far as teenagers getting married or pregnant, it is no different than many places in USA. The legal age for marriage in many states is still 16 with parents consent.
I suppose I am wondering if they are being prosecuted because their belief in polygamy or because they have done something wrong, I am not sure.

 

Well, all I am trying to say is they are not "Mormons". They are FLDS.

I personally believe that polygamy was a man made decision to support the dying. If you go back into history you will see that no matter what the mormons did they were persecuted for it. Many Mormons were murdered in cold blood. If they weren't murdered they were forced to keep moving from area to area in the snow. Many people died from frostbite and hypothermia. These were not easy times.

Here are some more things that will hopefully shed some light:

Warren Jeffs has never been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, whose members are often referred to as “Mormons.”

• Polygamy was officially discontinued in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1890. Any Church member adopting the practice today is excommunicated. Those groups which continue the practice in Utah and elsewhere have no association whatever with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and most of their practitioners have never been among our members.

• The Church has long been concerned about the continued illegal practice of polygamy, and in particular about reports of child and wife abuse emanating from polygamous communities today.

• Even in countries where civil or religious law allows polygamy, the Church teaches that marriage must be monogamous and does not accept into its membership those practicing plural marriage.

 

Another key point of interest is the fact that we have a statement concerning the family:

"We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.

All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.

The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’s eternal plan.

Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalms 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, to teach them to love and serve one another, to observe the commandments of God and to be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society."

 

By the way, I just want to apologize for calling you arrogant.

 

Consenting adults should be allowed to do whatever they want to/with each other. But concessions regarding marrying children shouldn't afforded to people because it happens to be a part of their religion. There also shouldn't be concessions regarding what hour or tasks an employee is expected to do because they happen to have a religion. A persons religion should have no effect on what they are allowed to do or what they are expected to do.

Let me just stress this again. I have no problem what-so-ever with men taking multiple wives, women having multiple husbands, People taking part in orgies or people dying virgins. In short, other peoples sex lives are none of my business and i have no interest in having an opinion on where they put their penis, What they do with their vagina's or how many sexual partners they have. As long as all people involved are consenting adults. When they involve children, Marry children and rape children i feel obliged, As a human being, To have an opinion on it.

A lot of people in this thread seem to conveniently ignore the abhorrent abuse of children committed by this cult, Their filthy members and their convicted paedophile rapist leader.

 

See now you are back to they are not "Christians", they are Catholics.

You might not like them but they are as Mormons as you are.
In regard to polygamy, as far as I know Mormons accept the Bible, especially old testament and that is the reason for closeness to Jewish people that they feel. Jewish religion also accepts the polygamy, so I think you are wrong that polygamy was a man made decision to support the dying.
Mormons has been persecuted for this historically which I don't agree with since people's life style should be no business of the government and that is the reason with this new round of problems, I am not sure how much of it is based on they doing something actually wrong or being persecuted for their belief in polygamy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism

No problem, I have been called much worse.

 

The term " Christian" means follower of Christ. The term Mormon is a trademark of the LDS church. They are different.

I cant stop someone from saying they are Mormon, but I can educate those that don't know who it refers to. If you research the guidelines of the Associated Press you will find that they are to refer to "Mormons" as only those of the LDS faith. Any other practices, sects or groups are to be referred to by their appropriate names.

Also, polygamy has been around since the dawn of insects. Look at queen bees, although the opposite, they are the leader of their groups. God probably commanded this.

What I am saying is that Joseph, might have been commanded by God to do this but my feelings toward the issue is that it was for the sake of care-taking, not for engaging in wild orgies. Once the government saw us as law abiding citizens, there wasn't a need to "watch over the flock" as there was before (as you so kindly bolded above).

And sTOX just so we are on the same page... I agree that people should voice their opinions about the disgusting things that are happening to kids these days. Taking the innocents out of kids is not just wrong but to me is as bad as taking a life. I have seen the effects of child abuse in every form (and not just in Utah). I lived in Africa where people beat the hell out of their kids for stepping on someone's foot. I lived in Portugal where I saw Gypsies doing the most disgusting things with their kids. My own dad and wife were the victims of extreme abuse. I am for these reasons VERY disgusted and sickened by it.

 

Their leader is in prison because he aided and abetted in the rape of a teenage girl who was forced into marriage with an older man (her cousin!) she did not want to marry. A jury heard the testimony of all parties and convicted him. There are many first hand reports of this being a regular practice. The teenage girls are not willingly choosing to marry 50 year old men.

And in order to be able to marry all the girls to old men, they have to get rid of a lot of young men. So the young men are frequently banned for minor "offenses" and sent out to fend for themselves into the real world while still teenagers.

You still don't see what's wrong with this picture?

 

That is the problem with people who hear stories and run with it. The old man who married her was 19 years old, yes really really old, almost the time for him to die.

 

I really understand your concern but don't you think you a lil bit too simple mind about this issue?

some peopel too simple and believe what media says like iraq and WMD.

they never ask how it come these guys were their for almost a century and no police ride?!

and btw there are about 60.000 mormons in US and not all of them do polygamy and not all of them raping .

 

It's old when he is forcibly having sex with a 14 year old girl. You wouldn't be trying to trivialize the rape of a child, Would you?

 

What age do American girls start having sex? If you look around, you will see that many start in that age or even younger. I don't know the particular in this case, so I will not make a judgment if she had sex against her will or not but it seems to me that there is an organized campaign against FLDS for practicing polygamy both in USA and Canada on the sole base of this practice. There is already another thread in this forum that talks about how polygamist get too much welfare with a link to a TV program. I think every case should be judged by itself and if there is a criminal act committed then the person can be sentenced but people should not be punished as a group because they want to practice polygamy.

 

Yes, Some do. But that doesn't negate the fact that this particular 14 year old was forced in to marriage and forced in to having sex.