Texas Authorities Raid Polygamist Compound(400 kids taken from a polygamist compound)

Let´s not bring the SCALE down because there is a big difference between one family unit and a group of families and individuals.
With your type of logic, police in every major city has a blank card to attack the ghettos and projects, be it in South philly, Chicago, NY,... and remove every child from these areas and search their houses. Where do you think statistically the teenage pergnency is higher, in this group or south Philly?

 

Well, Let's do the maths. In the Texas group 60% of the 14 to 17 year old girls have given birth. And by your own statistics 214 out of every 1000 black teenage girls (that is girls up to the age of 19, An age where having sex, getting married and having children is legal) have given birth, That is a under 25%.

So to answer your question, The pregnancy rate for teenage girls is higher in this cult by a factor of over 2/1.

And this is without acknowledging the difference between two underage people having sex (which is often the case in general society) and children being forced into marriage and raped (which is the case in this cult). The stats are insignificant when we look at the difference in circumstances. One is the problem of underage sex (a problem, Granted), The other is the systematic abuse and rape of children (a far greater problem).

 

Uh, 'kay. I thought I'd give it a try. I should have known better.

SCALE is precisely the issue you raised, saying that the SCALE indicates this is a sign of prejudice, I guess, against this sect.

2 kids, or 400 - given credible evidence against children under the care of the alleged abusers, it is the role of the state to protect those kids. That you can't answer the example raised isn't surprising, to me, but the truth remains.

This isn't my logic, though it may be yours.

I don't care about demographic statistics. I care about evidence of crime. Police don't search homes because of statistics - they search them on probable cause of a crime. As they did here. That you can't see the difference, again, while not surprising, isn't a valid argument.

 

Both children would be removed. Even if only one child was abused, if that child was removed and the other left at home there's a very strong chance the remaining child would be the next victim.

 

There was an initial attempt to do this. Both the women and the children gave different names when they were questioned from day to day, and gave conflicting allegations about who was mother to which child.
Kind of makes it difficult to identify anybody, much less which child was in danger.
But really, if 60% of the teenage girls in the group are or have been pregnant, which children would NOT be at risk???
And don't forget about the boys who are banned over trivial things so the old men will have it easier preying on the girls.

 

Yep, this is what reasonable people like yourself conclude, Kaethy.

 

Let's imagine that a policeman sees a man who has just killed another man, runs in to an abandon building. They surround the building and arrest 5 men and nobody knows who was the man who entered the building and the policeman is not sure either, do you think all 5 men should be put in prison for life or executed because surely one of them is a murderer and it is difficult to investigate who it is?

 

That is the most inaccurate analogy i have ever read.

Try to stick to the facts, How about this; let's imagine the police suspect that a cult are systematically abusing children and making girls as young as 14 pregnant, Do they not have a duty to investigate this fully?

 

Let's imagine that a policeman sees a man who has just killed another man, runs in to an abandon building. They surround the building and arrest 5 men and nobody knows who was the man who entered the building and the policeman is not sure either, do you think all 5 men should be put in prison for life or executed because surely one of them is a murderer and it is difficult to investigate who it is?

 

Certifiably, the most inaccurate analogy I have ever read as well.

Gworld, redux. I'll try again. Please answer the question. Avoiding it only confirms to me that you are not interested in much beyond, well, I'm not sure. But the question, posed again:

 

gworld, In your contrived, inaccurate, sensationalised analogy what do you suggest the police do? not investigate at all? Should they not question the 5 men in the building?

 

GWorld, Guerilla:

31 girls between the ages of 14-17 have been pregnant or had kids. The Texas government waited 4 years before finding probable cause.

These young girls were placed in an environment of forced rape. Its a travesty that these girls were subjected to this crime. Had the Texas government acted immediately, without probable cause, these girls would not have been subjected to this abuse. In the future other young girls will be saved.

Your greater and ultimate fear of government action would and could enable more horrid crimes against the innocent.

 

Of course they should investigate but if they can not come up with any proof then they have to let all 5 men to go free even if one of them is a murderer. In your world, it is better to execute all of them since certainly one of them is a murderer.

Crime by individuals against individuals however horrid the nature of crime, is a fact of life and yes innocents will get hurt by the crime but even the victims of serial killers is limited to may be 50-60 people. On the other hand, a government without proper control on it's police actions can influence the life of millions and many hundreds of thousands of innocent victims.
Your compliance to accept any form of government action in the name of greater good and saving the innocent is a road to hell and ultimately will cause more horrid crimes against much larger group of innocent people.

 

Resorting to make stuff up so soon? I have at no point said they should be arrested, charged, imprisoned or executed without evidence.

 

And the "smoking gun" was a crazy woman calling from Colorado, pretending to be a girl on the ranch.

So now you are arguing against probable cause? Because that seems to be your issue here. That they didn't act fast enough to counter something is now going to be your new mantra of ex post facto justification.

Here are two things to consider,

1) Do you believe that the ends justifies the means?
2) Would the police be correct in the same (sic) investigative actions, if none of the girls had been found to be raped?

Ah yes. We gotta fight'em over there, so we don't have to fight'em over here. The hate us for our freedoms. Mushroom clouds over our cities...

Sorry. I walk around with my head up, and my eyes wide open. I'm not buying this sense of perpetual fear that causes people to abandon reason.

Right, but IMHO scale alone should not determine if something is justified. I've been trying to get Earl to tell me how many more people he is willing to murder in Iraq so that the troops can withdraw without a civil war occurring.

But he hasn't decided how many he will kill for the "greater good" yet.

There may have been an audience for this sort of learned, rational and principled wisdom 100 years ago.

Such compliance is exactly how Hitler was able to drum up fanatical support for killing the Jews/Homosexuals etc. and beginning a global conquest based upon race superiority. It was for the greater good that Jews should be wiped out, and the Aryans should rule the lesser bloodlines.

Yet many people today think you can play with fire (government power) and you will never get burned (tyranny).

 

GWorld, Guerilla:

Its astonishing that you can't see the benefit of government intervention in this case to save young females; not yet women, not yet of the age of consent.

Clearly you are on the side of government ALWAYS being at fault.

That is a simply unrealistic and juvenile.

I believe in taking cases one by one. Over the long haul American justice has proven to be pretty good. Probably many more right decisions than wrong.

And that is a positive. Afterall we are human....and are all subject to mistakes.

I was and am not for eliminating the standard of probable cause, as Guerilla suggests. I merely wanted to point out how, if actions (not sanctioned by a probable cause incident) had been taken 4 years ago, these women wouldn't have been raped.

There are always considerations to weigh and balance in making decisions.

I don't accept any government action. Not even close. This incident saw a 4 year wait period before an incident sparked probable cause.

It is reasonable to assume that the majority of those girls either pregnant or had been pregnant between the ages of 14-17 would not have suffered this crime, if the laws and freedoms were written differently, and protections under the 4th Amendment were not so stringent as to require a probable cause incident to justify a police action that waited 4 years.


Meanwhile, no one knows for certain who made the call that initiated the raid by authorities. Despite Guerilla's comments to the contrary, this fact is simply not known. It's extremism, and desperation to make such claims, in the face of a lack of evidence....and it portrays more concern about some political philosophy than the well being of the girls at the compound.

In fact it is extremist postions and an unwillingness to weigh and balance considerations or an inability to do so that leads some to blame every death in Iraq on the US.

Its as if Saddam Hussein never existed. Its as if, once unleashed Sunni's and Shiites had no problems with one another, its as if armed gangs and militia haven't faught and killed one another, and its as if Al-Queda in Iraq didn't exist.

I'm not sure why Iraq was brought into this thread by Guerilla. I suppose if all else fails blame the US for every death in the Middle East is as good an argument as he can find.

 

Please try not to hide behind the young females skirts.

This is not about these young females or any other victims of crimes or do you thing that murder victims or assault victims deserve less than these young females?

The subject of the discussion is what government can and can not do in it's role as a police force in the society. Do we hold government controlled and bound by certain rules that are there to protect the right of individuals or do we give government a blank card to act as they please in the name of greater good and protecting the innocents and helping victims?
In my case, I prefer that even If myself be murdered, the killer go free, rather than government use illegal means to punish my murderer because while I only be one victim, such uncontrolled police actions can have millions of victims.
The government is not always at fault but when government doesn't follow the rules, deals out group punishment and goes on fishing expedition then the government is at fault, no matter what excuse is used as justification. What do you think would have happened if the government used the same type of excuse to attack one of the projects in Chicago, Philly, NY or Detroit and remove all children from there? It would have been a revolt since people could identify themselves with the groups living in the ghettos but when the same tactics is used against a group that is already marked by their religious belief and life style then so many people will support it in the name of "greater good".

 

that is grotesque.

more grotesque accusations

GWorld: the state of Texas waited 4 years. 4 years

They evidentally had suspiceons during that entire period, and waited for a call and complaint to initiate an investigation.

The govt is neither always wrong or always right. The 4 year wait, which is premised on the 4th amendment, evidently, created a time frame for further rape.

Geez. you evidentally don't give a cr@p. I feel for those girls. My experience in dealing with adults who suffered from sexual abuse is that it leaves a lifetime of pain.

 

Todays news;
The state also revealed medical exams and reports from the kids themselves indicate at least 41 children have broken bones.

That's nearly ten percent.

Outside Eldorado, less than one percent of American children suffer a broken bone each year.

TEN TIMES the normal rate of broken bones!!!

I will apologise if it turns out that they do actually have brittle bone syndrome.

Until then, I believe the reason these kids are "unfailingly" poilte and well mannered is fear of severe physical punishment.

 

It's cowardly to hide behind these young women. Cowardly and reprehensible.

And you are on the side of the government always being right. That is simply evil. And evil.

You didn't answer my question. Would the police be justified in their actions if they had gone in and there was no crime? That's my argument in a nutshell. Does the ends justify the means? And it's a question you are dodging.

If the 4th Amendment was not so stringent, it would be abused even more. This is more "give up liberty for security" nonsense. It's cowardly.

More cowardice. Weigh and balance is a sophisticated way for you to claim that the deaths in Iraq are not on your hands, because you did not pick a side, or refuse to make a decision, when in fact your silence and cowardice is exactly what enables the killing to continue.

The reason it is brought up, is because post after post, you prove that you have no principles. There is no bedrock or foundation to what you support. It's all wishy-washy, reactionary and flexible.

You are responsible, and you have the blood of thousands of young Iraqi girls on your hands, because you refuse to endorse a quick and immediate end to their suffering.

So before you lecture me on conspiracy, or being juvenile, or any other pejorative accusation you want to send my way when you lack a solid argument to compete with, remember who is the one who endorses the war.

And please, don't hide behind those poor girls in Texas, or behind "the US" when it comes to the murder and destruction you have condoned in Iraq.

There are millions of Americans who don't support YOUR war, and YOUR genocide. People with courage and character. And I won't have you using them as a shield for your heinous and evil crimes.