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So how is PHP programming doing these days?

Discussion in 'PHP' started by David26, Sep 9, 2016.

  1. #1
    I retired from web development five years ago. Mainly because every month there was a new framework being introduced that I never heard of and I was getting flooded with emails from clients to update their site using some new fad that I never heard of before. So I got out before I wound up being an old man competing with 20 years olds excited and full of drive about their coding career like I used to have. Looking back at some of the sites I have created from scratch it amazes me how I was able to do it when during the process it was no big deal. I just wanted to ask if programmers are still trying to fight against programmers in other countries that work for a couple of dollars and if there are new frameworks fads that clients still demand so they can be "hip" with the latest code.
    SEMrush
     
    David26, Sep 9, 2016 IP
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    SEMrush
  2. Blizzardofozz

    Blizzardofozz Well-Known Member

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    #2
    If you have learned PHP in depth the framework or the CMS wouldn't have bothered you so much. I'm also annoyed by people selling WordPress themes as their websites, but what can I do...
     
    Blizzardofozz, Sep 10, 2016 IP
  3. PoPSiCLe

    PoPSiCLe Illustrious Member

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    #3
    New frameworks, not so much. However, there's been an increase in idiocy, mainly using Bootstrap for CSS control, which is complete and utter crap.

    As for "fads", I don't think there's that much on the server side, if you don't count node.js or similar. There's a lot on the user side, using different types of javascript frameworks.
     
    PoPSiCLe, Sep 10, 2016 IP
  4. David26

    David26 Well-Known Member

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    #4
    Well it annoyed me when a framework renamed a predefined function so it was like memorizing another language for something that already exists.
     
    David26, Sep 10, 2016 IP
  5. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #5
    It's called adapting to the times... frameworks and other such "non-sense" have a purpose regardless of how crappy you think they are.... Shit...my 90 year old grandmother thinks it's frivolous to have touch screen phones because older phones with physical buttons are easier............. technology always advances... trends change... you need to adapt or quit.
     
    NetStar, Sep 11, 2016 IP
  6. David26

    David26 Well-Known Member

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    #6
    I agree with her on that lol. My blackberry with a real keyboard I could type paragraphs on that thing without looking. My huge thumbs cover half the touchscreen of these phones I typo all the time.
     
    David26, Sep 12, 2016 IP
  7. JeffMichaels

    JeffMichaels Well-Known Member

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    #7
    Frameworks come and go, but the fundamentals and core languages remain as important as ever. If you can create great websites with well-architected maintainable code, then you'll always be able to make good money.
     
    JeffMichaels, Sep 12, 2016 IP
  8. jestep

    jestep Prominent Member Premium Member

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    #8
    PHP is having a bit of an identity crisis from what I'm seeing. Honestly it's hardly improved in years, it's very usable and stable, and still works great for websites and applications of multiple sizes.

    The framework arms race has become almost ludicrous at this point because nothing actually new has happened in 5 years. It's almost to the point where the goal is simply to introduce complexity just to pander to pissed off developers who think PHP's lack of standards is a bad thing...
     
    jestep, Sep 16, 2016 IP
  9. JeffMichaels

    JeffMichaels Well-Known Member

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    #9
    It's still a massively popular language that isn't going away anytime soon:

    https://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=/m/060kv,/m/07sbkfb,/m/06ff5,/m/02p97

    http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
     
    JeffMichaels, Sep 16, 2016 IP
  10. jsmcm

    jsmcm Active Member

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    #10
    I think there will always be the 20 something startup businesses who think its cool to hire a 20 something developer who wants to use the latest technologies... That's absolutely fine and I'm not knocking it..

    But on the other hand there are more established businesses who don't actually care about the framework. Indeed they don't care about the technical details at all. They just want the job done and they want it well. This is the market I cater to and we do well enough from it.

    I still to plain old PHP where I can and use wordpress quite a lot. Both make sense to me because they're well documented and have large user communities so getting help is easy enough..
     
    jsmcm, Sep 18, 2016 IP
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  11. edduvs

    edduvs Well-Known Member

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    #11
    I think you missunderstand Bootstrap's main task.
    I code for a living. Started back-end ( PHP ), advanced through as much as possible, got bored, went towards front-end. Then I met the power of JS, live templating, realtime dashboards and etc. After falling in love with JS, I started coding everything in JS, therefore, I got into NodeJS so now I write JS for a living heh. But enough with this crap, point being, I code a lot.

    So, when it comes to front-end, I used to do.. LOTS of PSD to Responsive HTML. The most annoying thing to me was how I really had to fight against the HTML's idiocy, when it came to whitespaces in between elements. I guess you are aware of it. I was tired of using float: left as that was stupid. Then I was tired of using font-size: 0 then resetting to font-size: initial every damn project.

    Thank God, flexbox made it's way to the surface, helped me very much with the tricky stuff. But still, a well coded CSS file coming from a a pretty crowded Photoshop design is never fun to watch at.
    And while I never use frameworks, unless I'm actually forced to work with one when it comes to the back-end, I really emphasize the simplicity of my CSS files now that I can just put in Bootstrap ( don't get me wrong, I customize the build and leave only the grid system and maybe few other bits I need ) in my head tag.

    From 800-1500, sometimes even 2000 lines of CSS code, I'm down at 300 to 500 lines. Paddings, containers, whitespace taken care of, weird calc and no more box-sizing properties to call, I'm plain right thankful for Bootstrap. Really happy I can use something that gets me rid of the crap I had to write down, every damn time when coding a new layout.

    With Bootstrap ( can't wait for the 4th version using flex ), I only have to care about the custom side of the things, where they need to be padded, or rounded up, or given animations and effects. No more CSS for the actual structure of the site. I'd write .col-xs-12.col-sm-6.col-sm-offset-3 rather than having to add in a breakpoint and give the element a class, then write that class down again in the breakpoint and give it some margin-left.

    In this era, everything is about how fast can you do stuff. And while CSS is the last thing I care about while working on a project, I don't want to spend my time writing down the same thing I've written in the past 8 years of my coding career.
     
    edduvs, Oct 7, 2016 IP
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  12. jestep

    jestep Prominent Member Premium Member

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    #12
    I'm more or less in the same boat as far as CSS/bootstrap goes. It's bloat, but in the development cycle it's something that I like not to have to deal with from scratch every time. We run all of our css and javascript through either a compression class and/or apache's mod_deflate, to remove whitespace and reduce the size of the files being transferred to the user.

    We also tend to try and use a custom bootstrap for each site just to strip out the components and classes we don't need. Just copy the url for the customized version and put it commented in a config file if the core css ever needs changed.
     
    jestep, Oct 9, 2016 IP
  13. Cado Magenge

    Cado Magenge Greenhorn

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    #13
    After making good websites you can make everything absolutely easily and earn a good amount with no doubt. You must be crazy enough to be a coder to code easily.
    Current market in PHP:

    in 2017- YII and PHP laravel is having boom. It has multiple things which makes coding easily.
    In php >>Laravel<< most used framework used globaly.
    Ad its having the Rank 1 in the top frameworks in PHP.
    But if not in PHP, the answer would be different.
    Also,
    Angualr Js front end and Nodejs for backend is gaining craze now a days
    But is not being used by most of the developers because its new in market.
     
    Cado Magenge, Feb 20, 2017 IP
  14. edduvs

    edduvs Well-Known Member

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    #14
    I don't get how can you say AngularJS is the standard for NodeJS though it's not used because it's new ?
    Both Angular and Node are anything but new. The first open-beta release of Angular was at it's 0.9.0 milestone, which was back in 2010 ... 7 years ago, time in which NodeJS was already public for more than a year ..

    So my friend.. both of these are anything but new. Even so, you can't say Angular is the most used, since we have stuff like React with it's Preact module which gives way better performance as well as more freedom.
    I code in both... depending on the project, but I can't say one is definitely better than the other. If you look for performance, look for React with it's Preact module.. and Angular will be looking like your grandma.

    If you're too lazy to code your own stuff for components and logic, then go for Angular which has most of the stuff you're going to need already built-in.
     
    edduvs, Mar 15, 2017 IP
  15. Cado Magenge

    Cado Magenge Greenhorn

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    #15
    Yes Angular JS has built-in functions which can make coding easier than ever before. It has functionality in such a way that it does half of its programming on its own way. Coder has to do half of its work if work is done in Angular JS.

     
    Cado Magenge, Mar 15, 2017 IP
  16. edduvs

    edduvs Well-Known Member

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    #16
    But Angular's learning curve is not as steep as you'd like. You need to get used to their digest system, to the built-in artifacts like ng-for, ng-if, and so on, which can lead to people having some of their view logic inside their templates.

    It is also not server-side, so you cannot pre-render before the request, which is a big no-go for projects that need indexed..

    While I agree it has a lot of built in stuff that you can use, I will say that it creates a very big issue amongst new programmers, just like the ones doing Laravel in PHP.

    Young programmers fail to fix the most basic issues because they went straight for learning the frameworks instead learning enough basic programming to be able to begin making one.

    A guy working on websites in Symphony 2 had issues with a form tag, not being aware how to send field data without having them shown in the query string ... ( method="POST" ).

    So basically what I am trying to say is that one should start from the bottom, understand where the flaws with vanilla code are, what could be done better, and then go for the frameworks which are here to help fix those flaws.
     
    edduvs, Mar 15, 2017 IP
  17. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #17
    Gah, the "Engrish moist goodry me love you long time" in this thread makes me want to jab out my eyeballs.

    I suspect that's because his "Engrish moist goodry" is far worse that your "Engrish moist goodry" -- and a total ignorance on his part of how to use that underlying language... though to be brutally frank your defending halfwit code-bloat bullshit like react or angular which just piss all over every project they are used upon may have something to do with BOTH of your failing miserably at... whatever it is you are talking about. Honestly I'm having trouble deciphering even that much out of that mess!

    As evidenced by your defending bootcrap's "let's piss all over the markup with presentational classes" back in October. Mouth-breathing idioitic halfwit BULLSHIT that has ZERO huffing business on a website in the first place, and proof positive that anyone using bootcrap doesn't know enough about HTML or CSS to be writing a single line of either!

    The most pathetic part of which being people claiming all this BULLSHIT -- jQuery, Bootcrap, Angular, React, codeignitor, laravel -- is somehow magically simpler and easier, when they in fact make you on actual production code write as much if not more code than you'd have without them, use broken methodologies, shoe-horn programming paradigms into the language the language was never meant to use, and in general make you work harder, not smarter.

    As I often say about bootcrap I'll never understand how writing three to six times the HTML needed to do the job with as much CSS of your own as you'd have WITHOUT the bloated asshat bullshit framework could ever be "easier"! That's nonsensical parroting of bandwagon propaganda, NOT sane and rational development!

    They all just put the HERP into that DERP.

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Now, as to the original question of the thread -- sorry I'm late to the party....

    ... but PHP is moving along nicely with genuine improvements to the language. ANYONE claiming otherwise hasn't been paying one lick of attention the past DECADE. We've seen outmoded and insecure methodologies moved from issuing warnings to flat out no longer even existing, we've seen all sorts of new functionality like bracketed arrays, double operator ternary, ufo logic, new cryptology hashing, etc... There's a reason most of the crap the people who never updated their PHP skillset past 4.5 will flat out no longer even RUN in PHP 7. *sigh* if only we were so fortunate in HTML with the dipshits who still refuse to update their skills past 1997.

    As to frameworks? FAGGEDABADDEM! Pointless code bloat trendy bullshit used by people too stupid to understand the underlying language. They certainly do NOT make ANYTHING easier and anyone telling you otherwise is packing you so full of sand you could change your name to Sahara. The same goes for client-side asshat ignorance such as jQueery or Bootcrap. Ignorant rubes and nubes might be dumb enough to believe they are easier, simpler, or of use when in fact they have the exact OPPOSITE effect. There's a reason such "frameworks" piss all over every project they are used on making them bloated, slow, needlessly and pointlessly convoluted, and flipping the double-bird at accessibility! ANYONE promoting their use is such a ignorant twaddle they really need to do the world a favor and sierra tango foxtrot uniform!


    There isn't anything I say in this article in regards to client side frameworks:
    http://www.cutcodedown.com/article/HTML_CSS_and_JS_frameworks

    That cannot be said of any server-side framework. It's the same "I'm too stupid or lazy to learn PHP, so I'm going to waste time learning something else I won't understand either and blindly hope it works" asshattery. Not a single claim of ANY advantage of a "framework" -- no matter how hot and trendy it is -- holds water... and when you shine a light on them you usually either have two reactions from the people using them; scurrying to hide under the furniture like roaches, or them throwing such a conniption fit that if they're farther up the food chain than you well, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out since HOW DARE YOU point out they've been packed full of shit.

    When to be frank, here's a picture of the majority of people promoting the use of frameworks and blindly claiming that the result is somehow "easier"
    [​IMG]
     
    deathshadow, Mar 16, 2017 IP
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  18. edduvs

    edduvs Well-Known Member

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    #18
    @deathshadow All that crap I wont even bother reading just because you didn't read my point either, but hurried to conclusions ( which you're most likely fixed on ). Even so, I already said frameworks are crap and one should learn how to do basic stuff, until he notices the gaps which need to be filled when working on a project for a better workflow. From there on he can easily start doing his own skeleton, or start learning a darn framework if it fits him better.

    Regarding the JS stuff, I just pointed our React because the guy who came in and commented about Node and Angular is most likely a google fanboy. Either way, I work with both, not because I like them best, but because today's clients ask me so. We are past your microchip coding ... this is a forum for web development ... so if you think React is crap for that matter, I must remind you that React is simply VanillaJS. It does not have any templating engine, it doesn't assume you have any time of Data model, nor it forces you into using a specific type of code. It simply helps you categorize your code in components, for later use. If you think you're just smarter than everyone out there, you're doing a big mistake my friend. There are new languages which need to be used because they are optimised to compute a specific input and not because we like spitting out new syntax. You just stick to your 16kb elementals thing, while lodash is already out there, improved for years now, and only has 4kb ( while also providing shims for the same stuff you do ).

    Just stop thinking you're smarter than all of us. Spare us the arrogance.
    Thanks for you time kind sir :)
     
    edduvs, Mar 16, 2017 IP
  19. cesarpa

    cesarpa Greenhorn

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    #19
    IMHO, Laravel is now mature and should be used for every new project you have in PHP.

    In Javascript, if you want to use it for the backend, everyone will recommend you Node.JS. For the frontend, there is still a big war between Angular, React, and Vue. Personally, I will bet on Vue.JS: https://medium.com/@codingfriend/why-vue-2-beats-angular-2-and-react-cfb709b92c59#.sqo95ly37 (TLDR: Angular and React are too difficult to handle, Vue is powerful AND easy, so is/was jQuery. So it will be widespread easily).
     
    cesarpa, Mar 16, 2017 IP
  20. edduvs

    edduvs Well-Known Member

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    #20
    @cesarpa VueJS, even with it's second version, is faster than React only in some cases, that they want you to see.
    Painting wise, Vue is just better than angular, but almost three times worse than PReact.

    Using the default repaint settings -- Latest stable Chrome:
    http://developit.github.io/js-repaint-perfs/vue/ -- ~37 ops/sec
    http://developit.github.io/js-repaint-perfs/react/ -- ~45 ops/sec
    http://developit.github.io/js-repaint-perfs/preact/ -- ~100 ops/sec

    So yeah.. React is more like ... giving you the freedom to write your entire logic, even for the templates.
    Vue needs to parse your templates and then to evaluate the params within. After that, it needs to pull in the artifact components `v-if, v-for etc`which you also have to learn while going for Vue or Angular.
    Afterwards, they also need to observe changes inside the Vue `data` object for the two-way binding take effect which is not guaranteed when working with objects as they can be nasty some times.
    Try using v-for on an object, and then have Vue listen for changes in "length" inside the properties :D wont work. For that, I must give a big shout out to React.

    I started few years back, by using Ractive, from which Vue took a lot, when it comes to initialisation and methodology. Can't say I don't like the idea, but it's

    let app = new Ractive({
       el: 'body',
       data: { ... },
       template: 'external tpl'
    })
    
    app.on({
        // methods
    })
    
    Code (JavaScript):
    Does it seem similar ? They have simplified the instatiate method and started parsing the template directly from the DOM.
    But ... did you ever think how that affects crawling bots which will see {{ user.name }} instead "Roger" ? Or have you thought about users with slow internet, which take a bit of time to load your JS and to start parsing content .. only option is to show a spinner and load the templates async, or serve them via json.

    Another downside of Vue is SSR, which, it doens't have. Or .. it does, recently. But it's not out of the box, and you have to include separate packages ... or you have to go with the Prerendering, which is nearly not as nice.

    Last but not least, mobile development ... Vue doesn't offer any. Whilst React has it's Native thing, in which Components are Views, and the code is mostly the same, given the difference in Views registration vs Components export ( since it's in Node ).
    I have a full web-based realtime chat .. done with Firebase, Preact and Webpack, which stacks at 230kb minified, 64kb gziped.

    Don't just trust posts on the internet, nor mine for that matter. Benchmark them yourself .. you'll see the results.

    Have a great afternoon!
     
    edduvs, Mar 16, 2017 IP