Scientology: The Worlds Most Crazy Regilion?

alright i took a bratty, rude response to get you guys and gals to post. i think it is quite the point when you want get to the roots of jew and muslim differences and there was no response for a week. i was astonished to not get a response to this sooner.

there is no proof of this happening during the time of the supposed corruption. and you are saying that jews corrupted scriptures that were intended to teach other jews at the time, huh?

it was to emphaze the point that they were records of jews and no records of muslims

does it matter? the race followed judaism at the time, according to the bible

i tried to convey the term " the act of a prophet" when he was the only person on earth. i guess you can say that he was a prophet to cain and able when they were born and to eve, technically

 

So you wanted people to respond to your post or just respond in general?

 

to respond to the post

 

A simple "please respond to my post" will do.

There's actually significant evidence of corruption in the bible (used by both Jews and Christians).

Records of them being Jewish (the race), which I have no problem with.

Muslim is not a race.

"According to the bible" is not enough, the bible is a corrupt book, it's unreliable.

The Jews simply corrupted what was given to them of scripture, now their religion is named after their tribe, do you not see how sick and twisted that is? Why would God name his religion after a tribe?

 

your mean parables? where are the parables about muslims? or are you talking about corruption on the content in the bible? are you saying everytime the word "jew" is used it should have been "muslim" instead? how can you prove this? what if it was the word "somolians"?

there is no third party written evidence of the presence of muslims before circa 500 a.d. you are claiming the corruption of the scriptures, only. the egyptian hierogliphs have the aknowledge the presence of jews, there is not aknowledgement of the group referred to these days as "muslims"

the jews are the children of jacob (or his name change to israel). there are the anglicans. and it's one of the religions that God provided to people, if there is a God.

here is an aside, isn't it interesting that christians, jews and muslims all worship the same God?

 

Drunk Monkeys:

[video=youtube;pSm7BcQHWXk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSm7BcQHWXk[/video]

 

That was crazy.

I've just noticed, it doesn't look like anyone has mentioned Scientology since page 1. LOL. Here, watch this video, -- it's of the Litterbox Cat Band:

[video=youtube;SzRRDVLixMg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzRRDVLixMg[/video]

 

You really sound like a very confused guy, I don't know where to start.

Can you provide a link to the egyptian hierogliphs? We'll take it from there.

 

This crazy .. Everybody has there own view of religion . I just learn to never force my views on others !

 

it seemed reasonable that there would be mention of the jew slaves in egypt during the time of ramsy II but upon searching google i did not find evidence of this. but what i did find was this:

"According to Tradition, the exodus occurred in approximately the year 1312 BCE. (This is based on the tradition that the exodus took place 1,000 years before the Jews were befriended by Alexander the Great, and in response began dating their official documents from that time onwards — approximately 312 BCE.)" from this source: http://www.jewishhistory.org/the-missing-pieces/

the jews began dating their written history in 312 B.C.E., while muslims began their written history circa 500 A.D., the premise of the point was that jews have more written history dating back eariler in history so it is difficult to claim that the torah and the jews belief in God were stolen from another group that, based on written history, began about 800 years later.

 

The article you linked to mentions that the Egyptians have no records of the Jewish people being there.

The only evidence as said on the article is the biblical accounts..so since there is no evidence of the claim you made earlier..can we put the whole hieroglyphics thing to the side? I think so.

What is your next question please.

 

what about a group claiming that another's religion is stolen and that group being dated 800 years after the first group, based on dated written material?

 

I'm not sure I understand your question, excuse my bad English. Please simplify your question and make it crystal clear.

 

correct me if i'm wrong but the first written proof of muslims began after the prophet Mohammed wrote down the Koran, at about 500 A.D.

jews began dating their written papers at 312 B.C.E., so the written proof of jews existing before muslims is in written form.

before i connect this point, i need to ask if you believe muslims existed before 500 A.D.?

if you believe, as you said "the tribe of jews" stole the torah and their belief in God from another group, what group did they steal it from and do you think it's from the group that we now call muslims?

 

First of all Muhammad (peace be upon him) didn't write the Quran, he was illiterate.

Secondly what kind of written proof are you looking for? Because I told you the old scriptures are lost and corrupted. The Qur'an tells us about what happened in the past, we don't rely on the old scriptures.

Which written papers? The old testament? If so, the old testament is corrupted, why do you believe anything that is said in there?

Moses was sent to the Children of Israel (Jacob) with the Torah, the Children of Israel corrupted the Torah.

Did I ever say the word "Muslim" or "Islam" is in the the original Torah, no...But I think you assume that it has to be that way. The Torah was not in Arabic so you won't find the words "Muslim" or "Islam", maybe you would find the equivalent in Hebrew or whatever they spoke at that time.

The previous Prophets implemented the meaning of the word "Muslim" which is to submit to God and to be on true monotheism, so whenever I say e.g. that the likes of Abraham was a Muslim, I'm talking about the meaning of the word "Muslim".

Another thing worth mentioning is that the religion of Moses was not 100% the same that Muhammad (peace be upon him) preached, we don't say this, but what we do say is that they were the same fundamentally, but they were different in laws and practices. Similarly all the previously mentioned Prophets all had their own religion, but these religions were fundamentally the same with differences in laws and practices..does that make sense?

 

The question is was Abraham a Brahmin

Did Joseph Smith do to the Bible what Moses did to the Egyptian book of the dead

Are Lotus flowers really the emblem that actually unites all the Babblers?

 

then who wrote the first copy?

i am asking if there is written proof about the group called muslims, from the basis of the definition of the term muslim that you provided later in this post. was it used back them like it is defined by you today?

there are written documents from the past about the jews other than scripture, there are some links in the bottom.

Some say moses is a child of jewish parents, are you suggesting otherwise? please elaborate. please provide evidence that the children of israel corrupted the torah? and aren't the children of israel the jews of today, if not, please elaborate. what parts of the torah did the children of israel corrupted, was it specific nouns or specific events in the torah?

i don't assume that you think that the word "muslim" of "islam" should be in the torah, but i wondered it if it was from your point of view and you provided the answer, thank you. why don't the people of islam and muslims speak hebrew? are you saying that God provided the people who speak hebrew his teachings also? it is the same God that is worshipped is it not? good ploy God.

i think i get it now. so jews that believe in God are muslims, based on the definition.

so they all believe in the same God, right? why is there an emphasis of how you worship the same God and not the fact that you are worshiping the same God? are the laws and practices that much of an importance now?

this is from a previous post from you. i think the jews just call their religion judism, and the land they got was the land of israel. perhaps it sounds good to the people who speak hebrew and that is how is translates into english?

here are link links to some interesting readings about the origins of the jews:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus
http://www.argyrou.eclipse.co.uk/myths/bible/ParaApion.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manetho

 

The Qur'an in its original form is not a book, it's the Speech of God, it is what He has literally spoken, the Angel Gabriel heard it and conveyed it to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and he memorized it, and so did his Companions, and they later wrote it down. I'm not sure which Companion was the first to write it down.

I haven't said that there was a big group called Muslims that left behind their history, I said the previously mentioned Prophets were Muslims, I don't how many their followers they had, and in fact some Prophets had very little followers, like Noah for instance, even his son denied him, and as the story goes, God punished the disbelievers with the flood. And in many stories you will find that a Prophet didn't have much followers, and later the people get punished and get totally wiped away from the earth. Some Prophets had no followers whatsoever.

What name those followers called themselves is not important, what is important is the beliefs they had.

It's probably after the corruption of the Torah.

Moses was a Jew by ethnicity.

Children of Israel are indeed the Jews.

What we are told in the Qur'an is that:

“Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will belive in your religion in spite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?” [al-Baqarah 2:75

Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): “So because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allaah loves al-Muhsineen (good-doers).” [al-Maa’idah 5:13]

So they changed words from their places and they abandoned part of the Torah.

The simple question that I have for you is: What is the earliest manuscript of the Torah..how many years after Moses was it written? We will take it from there.

The Jews were sent several Prophets: Jacob, Joseph, Moses and Jesus and there may be others. I'm not sure what language they spoke, it could've been Hebrew, but what I want to say here is that these Prophets were sent to the Jews and the Jews alone, they were never meant for the entire of mankind. In the past Prophets were sent to a specific nation/people, not to the whole of mankind, so the Torah that Moses came with, was not for us, it was for the Jews.

While you have Prophets being sent to the Jewish people one after the other, at the same time you would have Prophets in different parts of the world preaching to to a different people, does that make sense? Each Prophet speaks the language of those people. This was how it was until Muhammad (peace be upon him) came, he was sent to all of mankind, not just the Arabs, the scripture that he came with was in Arabic, and it abrogated all of the other scriptures that God has previously revealed, meaning that the Jews and other than the Jews now have to follow the Quran.

The Jews that accepted and followed the original Torah.

Are those who follow the current Torah considered to be worshipping the same God? no, they are worshipping their rabbi's, because it's their rabbi's that changed the Torah, so they are not followers of the words of God, but the words of rabbi's, and anyone who does that according to the rules of true monotheism is a polytheist.

Are they considered to be Muslim, no, because they don't submit to God who ordered them to now follow the Qur'an, but rather they stick the words of their rabbis.

The old laws in the original Torah are abrogated by the Qur'an.

I don't know, but just thinking about it, it doesn't make sense for God to name his religion after a tribe..it sounds like a tribe is attaching their name to a religion.

--

If there's something I left out or you didn't understand just say it.

 

before i respond to your comments i would like to add this, it can be deduced that you are biased about how a person worships God. why can't we be happy with at least the worship of God by itself? you are considering that one form of worship is favored more than another, and in the "corrupt" bible that you say it is, God does favor some worship over others (there is a parable in the bible where God favors one burnt offering more than another's burnt offering).

christians do the same thing, they try to push their religion onto everybody. islam, or the word from arabic, quantifies being "muslim" as being with the correct form of worship of God. (as deduced so far).

is it fair to say that when a christian worships God they can be called "muslims" by arabic and/or islamic terms? or do they need to pray five times a day (an example of specific worshiping technique) to demonstrate that they are practicing correct religious techniques to God?

back to commenting on comments:

"Some Prophets had no followers whatsoever." so why be considered a prophet? the www.dictionary.reference.com says this,

"1. a person who speaks for God or a deity, or by divine inspiration." source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prophet

this definition says the person does the act of speaking to others. how are you a prophet without people to speak to? or are they just followers and the person speaks to random people? if that, who was adam talking to before eve, cain and able? (yup, a "corrupt" claim from the bible, like you would say IsraeI, or is it described in the koran?)

"I said the previously mentioned Prophets were Muslims"

by arabic and/or islamic terms (that is, believing in God correctly), as translated into english, they were muslims.

based on your claims, it is "after the corruption of the Torah", but those links about it are separate from the torah or scriptures, somewhat.

"“Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will belive in your religion in spite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?” [al-Baqarah 2:75"

did you add the interpretations in parenthasis, the content in between the ()? or was it included in the Koran? are you assuming that it is the jews? you are interpreting vague content in the Koran, similar to "corrupting" techniques that you claim in the bible, but you are not changing the text but you are changing the "understanding" of the written words.

to fit your claim about the jews altering their provided torah, perhaps they took the initiative to alter the torah to fit definitions while those that define the koran add parenthesis, the () to the koran literature? (this is to help your claim, somehow).

the first four books of the old testement in the bible that christians read are from the torah. this written proof is written and can be dated but based on your "corrupt" biblical timeline it is invalid. you can check the links that i provided to help the dating if the biblical timeline is not sufficent, but is it "corrupt" by you. there is no exact written proof of when the torah was written. well, the jews got the message and they follow the teachings of the torah.

moses wrote the torah while the jews were leaving slavery from egypt, but this is from the "corrupt" bible that you refer to. correct me if i'm wrong.

so it is possible that the prophets that were sent to the jews were not jews. i understand that. based on the torah and bible the prophets you mentioned were jews by birth.

i met a pastor of christianity from india years ago that told me that he prayed to God for help because we was going on a mission to a country that did not speak any of the languages he knew and he said God provided him the language he needed to communicate with the people at the mission.

Are those who follow the current Torah considered to be worshipping the same God? no, they are worshipping their rabbi's, because it's their rabbi's that changed the Torah, so they are not followers of the words of God, but the words of rabbi's, and anyone who does that according to the rules of true monotheism is a polytheist.

Are they considered to be Muslim, no, because they don't submit to God who ordered them to now follow the Qur'an, but rather they stick the words of their rabbis.[/QUOTE]

this goes to the point i made before going back to commenting on comments:

the jews are not muslims because of the way they worship God, according to you. what if a catholic believes in God is that person a muslim or does that person need to follow the practices of islam to be a muslim? i am assumming you are going to say that they are not muslims because they base their worship on a "corrupt" bible, correct me if i'm wrong.

muslims, believers of islam, outnumber roman catholics now as the most numerous people following a religion on the earth. i mentioned this recently in another thread in this forum.

the basic philosophy of being a muslim can possibly dominate most people but the knitpicking of how you worship God is not going to help the muslims in the long run, there will possibly be some other group, maybe science that can help the concept of muslims for everybody, even though it won't be helping with the worshipping of a single God. i thought i might throw that in there.

so the "tribe" of jews "corrupted" the teachings of the prophets, as you mentioned. so why is this prophet that brought the torah to the jews and his teachings are mentioned in the koran if it is a failed teaching to a "tribe"? weren't most of these prophets mentioned in the koran sent to the "tribe" of jews? i am trying to also get back to the sarah and hagar stories that differ in islam and to the jews and christians, i can't wait to talk about that in depth.

aren't the "tribe" of jews from the lineage of sarah?

 

Let say that in a book written by Steven Spielsberg it says "you must pray 3 times a week"..you read this in that book, then you implement it. Can you call yourself a Muslim now? You can't because you didn't submit to Gods will, you submitted to Steven Spielsberg.

You get the idea now?

The Muslim by definition is someone that has submitted himself to God, not rabbis, not imams, not a minister of a church not Steven Spielsberg. If he submits to anyone other than God, he is no longer a Muslim. An example of that would be a Jew or a Christian, they both are submitting to what's in the bible, and the bible is not the words of God. We say it has divine origins, but now its mixed with falsehood, and thus no longer reliable and should be totally abandoned.

Also someone who merely has a believe in God is also not a Muslim, this person only believes but he does not submit to the will of God.

To be a Muslim you must only submit to Gods will, and the only way you are going to find out what his will is, you need to read his words, which is the Qur'an.

By "followers" I mean people that accepted the message that Prophet had. Some Prophets had little of those followers, they were preaching, but people didn't listen, other Prophets had no followers at all. Do you understand now?

Before Adams wife and children of course he didn't speak to anyone, but I'm talking about after.

By the way you are assuming the definition of "Prophet"..we actually have a different definition of "Prophet" and we also have a separate definition for "Messenger", but I don't want to get into detail about that right now.

The parenthesis are added, it is to aid you to understand the verse. It's not a form of corruption, because you see the parenthesis, if I remove the parenthesis however, then you can call it corruption.

The parenthesis are just there to make it easy for you to understand, even if you remove them it doesn't change the verse...here it is again:

Do you covet that they will belive in your religion in spite of the fact that a party of them used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?” [al-Baqarah 2:75"]

Who else than Jewish rabbi's can "a party of them" refer to? The Torah was for the Jews, the only people that can change it is the Rabbi's, the layman cannot do something like that.

So again, whatever is inside the parenthesis is there to make it easy for you to read.

Sometimes the author of what's inside the parenthesis has evidence for what he put there, and he will put his evidence in the footnotes. In this case you don't need to see evidence because it's quit obvious that it's referring to Jewish rabbi's.

If it was written by Moses then where is the original Torah of Moses?

How many years after Moses does the oldest Torah date back to?

No, all Prophets that were sent to the Jews were Jews, - Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon, Moses, Jesus, and there may be more.

By the way, It was not just the Torah that was given to them, Jesus came with the Gospel (now corrupt), and David had the Zabur, which some people have said is now Psalms (corrupt of course) .

The Jews were very lucky people, they were the chosen people, but they failed to implement what they had been told, as said before they left a good part of the message, and they changed the words in the scriptures.

They base their worship on a corrupt bible.

If you want to submit to Gods will..you do not find his will in the bible, because the bible is not from God..if you submit to other than God you cannot be a Muslim. A jew/catholic/hindu/christian/rastafarian do not submit to God, they submit to whoever wrote their books.

It's fairly simple to understand.

Islam will enter every home, as the Prophet (peace be upon him) has once said..but don't choose a faith because of numbers, it's the truth that matters..not numbers.

I was speculating when I said "it seems like a tribe is attaching their name to a religion"..didn't really say it was a fact.

But yes, it was the Jewish Rabbi's who changed the Torah..and I think it's in your interest to look a bit more closely at the oldest Torah, it's authors and how it was compiled, perhaps then you will see that it is indeed tampered with.

Yes. I don't know why you keep talking about the Jews though.