This is not the issue. I was talking about such actions coming from Muslims not non Muslims. And since Muslim Sheikhs said it is against Islam, then it is. Such conclusions or decisions should not be left to individuals everyone things something. It is not me, or any similar Muslim, who can tell if an action is considered against Islam or not and to which extent it is against Islam. It is the duty of Muslim Sheikhs as I stated once before. This is one big misunderstanding. Let us go to the extreme: A Muslim harms Islam. So, he will be killed. Who kills him? Not anyone. Only the Muslim governor (president, etc.). Any punishment for any crime is not performed by regular people or per any Muslim's instructions. These issues are handled and decided by the country leader only. So, exploding myself is not an option. Moreover, exploding myself and trying to kill people who are not in war with me is forbidden. Those actions are BS. Even Egypt has seen like three exlposions recently by people who say they do that in the name of Islam (while killing Muslims and foreigners)! Imagine. They certainly disrespected my religion. They have to apologize as well as their government. There should be a law that is more general than the holocaust law: you should not disrespect any belief or religion.
Cartoons are definately against Islam. The difference between what real Islam says and what the crowds on TV do is how to handle such issues. You can notice this from observing what every country says and what people from these countries say and what banners they hold. Our demand is that these cartoonists must apologize and their government must apologize as well. Death threats, death fatwas, hatefull banners, etc. are not from Islam - even if they are coming in its name. For example, an Imam in Pakistan made a fatwa that the cartoonists must be killed. Immediately, the Islamic Congree Organization refused that and considered it as a non Islamic fatwa. (I talked before about the Imams in Islam and how their only mission is to lead Muslims in prayers).
OK, since it is against Islam, then you are saying that if one of the cartoonists is an ex-Muslim, that person should be executed?
So now Islam respects Jesus as a prophet, that's what I'm hearing all around. Well, well, when Jesus rose up and started preaching, the Jews hoped that he would be their king, governor and leading fighter, after wittnessing his power and miracles he demonsterated out of love. So Jesus taught them a Godly lesson saying "my kingdom is not of this world", which left the Jews dissapointed. Now before even the prohecies of Jesus were and still aren't completed, a governor of medina (worldly man), married to a rich widow, rose up approx. 450 years later with new doctrines, contraticting the teachings of our, yes our, your and my Lord Jesus. - Has God changed, or does he apply double standards? Lordo! You still can't answer to my post from above about the main rules Jesus has set "as one of your accepted prophets". There's nothing above it, maybe this why, but then what keeps you from confessing to it? From my own experience with my conversations with muslims about love is that they are very affectionated when one talks and demonstrates it, and which is at the other hand a proof that this most important commandment is completely neglected in the islam world. You know that I'm not talking about monkey love but Godly love. The same Jesus who came here to pay for all mankind's shortcomings is shelved by your ungodly worldly doctrines. May His and our love follow you throughout your life and and lets pray that's not too late for billions of misguided peolpe.
Isn't that a proof that it is against western constitutions? - and contraticting the respect, which they claim for themself in a one-way only, of western laws? Sure it is!~!! We have sufficient laws to deal with everything, so we don't need their murderous input, which seems to be sooo related with perverted lust.
Lordo wrote: What can be regarded as an action against Islam? What can be so bad to cause the religion of islam harm and being a reason for murder and death in the name of Islam ordered by a Muslim Sheikh? Islam can not be harmed, it can only be questioned by a individual and therefor the strength lies in believing and the character of the person believing and when someone would lose this faith then it is because the person is weak in his-hers belief of the religion of Islam. Islam can not be harmed by non/believers...only Muslims themself can cause harm to Islam by letting mortal humans decide over life and death and therefor questioning the religion of Islam since it is only Allah that can decide when someone needs to die and leave this earth and not a Muslim Sheikh...that is a human mortal of flesh and blood. The only harm that can be caused to Islam is when people stop believing in Islam and this can not be achieved by non-believers since they don´t have the power to cause instablity. The power lies with actions of Imams and Muslim Sheiks and all other individuals in the Muslim community that holds status and prestige. When these people with status and prestige start doing things such as ordering death over a human being then these people are putting themself above Allah since only and only Allah decides when a person should leave this earth of mortals. These type of actions cause harm to Islam and no cartoons since a true believer will not be manipulated or confused by some stupid cartoons, they will place themself above this because no words can let them change the path and if they do let this happen then they are weak in their belief and in character. When a person has been given the ''right'' to declare death at his will and bypassing the will of God or Allah...whatever name you wish to use then if such actions can be condoned in a religion it loses the definition of religion and belief.
If they feel forced, then the whole point is gone. What is the point with doing your homework, just because a teacher/your mother told you to do so?
Will, I know my English is not so good but read my lines carefully to get the meaning. I said being an ex Muslim is not different from being a non Muslim from the beginning. Please read my lines again.
Arnie: I am sorry but, honestly, I don't understand your phrases. If you can rephrase them, I will try to understand. I dunno but your English is a bit different
Like i said Latehorn, nobody is being forced. Making suggestions that people need to stand up and speak their minds is not forcing them.
You are handling this issue in a wrong way. Who made laws? Humans. Does law say: kill the murderer? Yes. Does this mean that humans gave humans the right to decide who dies? Yes. Why? Because that is the way humans felt they could protect themselves and keep their rights. That is point 1. Suppose that USA's law says kill the murderer but the law of UK says don't kill him, just imprison him. Now if someone in UK protests against that law of the USA and said it is against humanity, will USA change that law? No. Why? Because it is convinced that this is the best law to protect people and their rights. Point 2. This is with human laws and cultures. Now when we talk about religions, it is much more respected. As long as the law of the religion does not touch you, if you are not a believer, then stay away Why do you have to argue about a Muslim who works against Islam so Islam says kill him? What does this have to do with you? This is an internal affair of Islam which Allah knows that this is what should be! And I want to tell you that as a Muslim, I find the Islamic laws very welcomed and very correct because their main aim is to protect me and my rights. End. One final comment: You guys make Islam look very odd, even to me, by talking this way This particular issue did not happen. Give me any example of this rule. And remember this: Islam does not know individual murders and explosions (as long as Muslims are not at war). Islam denies threatening civilians. One more thing to make you understand this better: Everyone who is behind these accidents you always talk about (the bombings, murders, etc.) should be killed according to the real Islam! If they say we are Muslims and they act in terror like this, they should be killed. Islam is against terror and threats.
You don't understand my point. They must understand themselves, or not. We have to stop acting like teachers.
Not in my country, not even if you kill 100 people. There's no death penalty here and we don't need it either.
I see latehorn and you are right __________________________________________________________ Lordo wrote: No man has the right to kill another man in the name of God/Allah! And you are saying that a man has the right to kill another man in the name of Allah as long as the man saying it is a Muslim sheikh...that is what you are saying are you? You ask me why do i have to argue? Well you want to understand more about our views and we would like to know more about yours. Your views are becoming more clear to me by saying that it is justified for a Muslim Sheikh to kill people in the name of Allah. A Muslim Sheikh is of flesh and blood and has no right whatsoever to kill another man. If he does this in the name of Allah he will be punished for abusing the name of Allah to kill another man! A Muslim Sheikh is not more or bigger then you since he is a human just like you and if he would kill a man he makes a mistake in the eyes of Allah just like you if you would kill a man in the name of Allah. No i am not handling this in the wrong way! When you say laws people are not killed directly in the name of God but in the name of society since the bible clearly states that human kind may not decide over life and death. This is the difference so don't compare it the same way, they are different. Islam denies threating civilians you say but you also say only Muslim Sheiks has the right to kill another man if he is causing harm to Islam right? So you are contradicting yourself here!! Lordo wrote: Please answer me this. Do you think that islam may be the reason to kill terrorists? Do you think Muslim Sheiks may decide to kill another person if it is in their view they are causing harm to Islam?
Well, people in West have a totally different perspecive, therefore, we can't implement anything that limits freedom of speech because freedom of speech is very holy to us. You cannot force us to have a constitution that fits your believe, you are foreigner and moslems are a minority here. We decide our constitution. I will still not blame the laws of Saudi Arabia's because it doesn't fit's me, I don't live there, people that live there should decide instead. Also, the holocoast law that you talked about before is not a standard in every western country, just in Germany, Austria, Poland and a few more. Go to america and deny the holocoast as much as you want. But denying it will be seen as stupid considering all eye-witness(gypsies, jews(the majority), poles, russians, german nazis, ukrainans, communists, handicapped people etc). Why do they do all this just to get into the paradise if the islamic rules are against it?
Edz - You are still thinking of it the wrong way 1. Sheikhs are the Muslims who learned certain Islamic issues well and are authorized to declare sentences. In fact, this can be the judge, the Sheikh of Azhar and the Sheikh who gives Fatwas in every country. When something happens, the Sheikh studies the issue and comapres it to the issues in Islam and then declares the Islamic sentence. No different from the legal way in any way! This becomes the formal word of the issue for the whole country as well. 2. Islam is clear about this issue. Quran says what means "Don't kill the soul that Allah saved (kept) without a reason". The Prophet PBUH explained it saying what means "It is prohibited to kill a Muslim except for three reasons: the married who commits the illegal sex sin, the murderer and the one who leaves his religion by harming Muslims and Islam". Again, who kills him if such issue happened? Not anyone who shots him and go to the paradise or volunteer for that, but the governor, the law enforcer of the country. Do you think that islam may be the reason to kill terrorists? Yes terrorists who spread fear and commit murders have to be killed. Do you think Muslim Sheiks may decide to kill another person if it is in their view they are causing harm to Islam? Their view is not the issue in Islam It is more like this: Say someone killed your neighbor that you liked much. You will say: kill him! I want my neighbor to rest in his grave! and so on. OK but can you decide that he must be killed? No. The court will study this and decide if he should be killed or not. Why can't you? Because the rule rules you and you don't know as much law as the judges. That is the way it is with Islam.
I wanted to avoid this thread like the plague but I couldn't resist. Will hit the nail on the head, great observation... 100% true.
And I don't want to change your constitution or the way you live. Now, about these who do things to go to paradise: Gangs utilize ignorants. They convince them, in the name of Islam, that if they explode in Egypt, London, Yemen, Saudia, USA, etc., then they will go to paradise because this is in the sake of Allah. Absolutely wrong. And this is one of the issues that took Egypt 5 years to do: imprisoning these guys, sitting with them and making them understand what Islam is. After rehabilitation, they let them out.