This thread was started here by accident: http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=58829 Then we all found it appropriate to continue at the right place. In brief, the discussion is all about: You have to respect all religions (or beliefs)! That was my idea. Many replied with what means: Islam leads to (or teaches) terrorism. So, how should one respect it? And before we go any further, this is a peaceful discussion which everyone liked. Nobody said anything bad to the other. So, let it go on that way. I will quote the posts that were not discussed and continue. And I asked "Where did you get that information from?" pointing to both freedom of speech being the most important and also muslim culture saying death is its reward. 1- Freedom is, with no doubt, the most important for human being. And freedom of speech is part of this. I agree. But you are telling me that you can say whatever you want, about anyone or anything, in public. And you say that this is your right because that is your definition for Freedom of Speech. I disagree and here is why. a. Such social rights and systems are results of theories. And they have to be modified to the better every now and then. Thus, I would say that there is no exclusive definition for Freedom of Speech. This means that the meaning of that term (absolute freedom) is propably not what you think. b. Imagine this scenario: Because I didn't link exchange with your site, you published this on your site: "Lordo is of that type of people who could cheat on his wife!" You even paid to a PR8 site to advertise "Lordo" as an anchor text linking to your site My wife saw it and divorced me. I lost the children too. My parents and family cut all relationships with me for being sinful. I lost my life. You didn't do so to ruin my life but you had the feeling that I could be of that type and you wanted to say it (and you had the motive). Was that freedom of speech? Another scenario: Egypt has bird-flu now as you might have known (but no human is infected yet). Let us say that I sent a piece of news to newspapers and said "There must be infected humans but the government is not telling the truth, I am 100% sure!" and such news made people go to streets and change the government. The new government then led our country downwards! Is that what you call Freedom of Speech? To say whatever you want not caring about anything? This would be like jungle life. There would cause a mess. There must be rules and guidelines for this freedom to develop it and enhance its use in order to guarantee that every human will be safe and that no harm result from the use of it. For this point to be more clear, check this definition of Freedom of Speech (read the intro): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights c. You sometimes have a bad word to say to your parent but you hold it back. Why? If freedom of speech means to say anything at anytime, then you should have done so. But there could be reasons: I- You are afraid to say something bad to your parent because (s)he can throw you away from home. II- You respect your parent. You are mad at him now but you respect him/her. So, you don't want to say anything bad. Apply the last example to the president or the mayor and it will stay valid. Go higher and it will be more valid. That was all common sense. And it was about Freedom of Speech. 2- Muslim culture could mean the culture that is derived from the religion only or the culture which was modified by the time. Now, we don't talk about a human touched culture. We are discussing the original concepts and culture. If a non-Muslim insults a religious symbol of Islam, such as the Quran, the Prophet (PBUH), the Hadith (the Prophet's sayings), the concepts or the holy places, then the Prophet says what means "There is no sin bigger than non believing". This means that whatever a non believer does, it won't be as sinful as not believing (at Allah). In other words, any misbehavior, freedom of speech in your current definition, is looked at as an expected action. Death to you is not an option and is not an instruction in Islam. "Killing humans" is a very serious, dangerous and prohibited thing in Islam as we will discuss later when it is time for that. BTW: Quran prevents Muslims from cursing non believers or saying bad things to them. The verse says what means "Don't say bad things to the on believers because they will curse Allah back as they don't know much about Islam and Allah". OK then what should Muslims do when a non believer does so? They should teach him why that insult hurt them and how holy these symbols are for Muslims and ask for respect. Putting the commercial deals on hold is something personal. I mean if you don't respect me, I don't want to deal with you. This is something special to each person or country because it is not assault. So, what you saw and what you see in some Muslim countries is wrong. I have seen banners saying: Freedom to hell, kill the ****, we will kill you, etc. All of this is not only wrong but it increases the gap between the real Islam and the west. And it is not me only who is saying this. Muslim sheikhs are trying to convince people to calm down and deal with the issue in a rational way. The real reason behind these outrages is not that Islam asks people to do this and make a scene of themselves, because it doesn't, but it is the stress under which these people lie. If you take a closer look, you will not find the outrages, killing threads or burning buildings in civilzed Muslim countries. You will find them in countries where people feel stressed by their governemnts. These governments indeed find it nice for their people to let the steam out in occasions like this (not caring about the bigger image)! That is one reason. The other reason is the current international situation of Muslims. After 9/11, everything changed, USA is in Iraq now, many western countries treat Muslims badly, etc.. Muslims find the current situation humiliating to them but they have nothing to do. So, such occasions can be misutilized. In anyway, this is not Islam. Correct. That is what this is all about. There is a difference between a religion and the followers of the religion, especially when they give new meanings to the concepts and act like they are derived from the religion. There are interesting issues here that need to be explained 1- There is a huge difference between Imam (religion man in Islam) and priest (religion man in Christianity). A priest to Christians is to some extent the shadow of God on earth, who can talk in the name of God, take confessions and forgive people who commit sins. Imam is: Person who leads communal prayers and/or delivers the sermon on Fridays. ONLY Thus, Imams are not sheikhs. They are noty authorized to declare pronouncements in the name of Islam. They are not authorized to give Fatwas (do's and dont's). They ONLY lead prayers. And they are Imams because they hold the most verses of Quran and can recite well. Thus, Imams should not declare pronouncements. If they do, then these are out of their personal views and they do not represent Islam. There are already Islamic Fatwa organizations which should look into issues and give Fatwas and declare the opinion of Islam. Yesterday, the Organization of Islamic Conference clearly refused the Fatwa by an Imam in India of killing the cartoonists and stressed again on the real Islam which is only about tolerance. So, what Imams say has nothing to do with the official view of Islam. There are organizations that are responsible for such activities. 2- Violence and threats of outraged Muslims: Discussed and explained. 3- Quran saying that: I already explained that and highlighted the misconceptions and where they came from (in the other thread). In brief, I said simply don't try to understand a Quran verse or a Hadith (saying of the Prophet PBUH) without knowing why and when it was sent to the Prophet (Quran was not sent at one time - It was sent gradually according to the events that happened to the Prophet and the first Muslims). Moreover, Quran clearly talk about the way Muslims must deal with non belivers. That's all in the other thread. 4- I am saying this is the real Islam while Muslims around the world say No: OK A couple of points here: a. I explained the reasons behind what you watch on TV and I explained how wrong and far from Islam that is. b. I have to admit the existence of a serious problem and I will explain it in details as good as I can. a. Islam is different from Christianity and Judaism. While the first is mostly about manners and self development, the second is about do's and dont's. Islam contains both and is the finishing of the religion (in its global meaning). Thus, it is easy for someone to read some articles about manners in Islam and some about the do's and dont's, like the religion, be convinced and become a Muslim. BUT there is much to learn about Islam to be a Muslim! And that is why Islam insists on asking non believers to study Islam well before being Muslims. It is bigger, in terms of concepts, manners, etc., then any religion. It is global and it is for life, everyday's life. Alas, there are many Muslims who don't know much about Islam. My father has seen this personally when he went to the states to teach Arabic. He felt guilty for not being there to teach Muslims the real Islam before (he is a Sheikh). b. As you might know, Islam is so far the fastest growing religion in the world (or if someone argues: one of the fastest growing religions). With many people converting everyday, there should have been enough number of Islamic Organizations and authorize Sheikhs to guide people and teach them Islam. But this is not happening. We are used to care about local issues and views rather than care about the world outside. But I think this is changing after the cartoonist issue. TV shows talk about the need for Muslims to care about how others see us. This is something very new! As a result of some Muslims knowing little about Islam and the lack of Sheikhs and organizations, you will see similar activities on TV. But again, this is not Islam. Paz's steamy post This is a real nice post. It helped me, along with previous posts, to understand how the other sees us and how he explain our actions. And of course this is the most important thing in a discussion. 1- Again, it is "when I think of Islam". It is not Islam. It is when you think of what people do under the name of Islam, or any religion. As thoroughly discussed in the other thread, there is a difference between a religion and the actions of some of the people who say they follow it. Just like the crusades: they were in the name of God, but we all know that it has nothing to do with God or Christianity. So, once again, I believe that it should at least be "When I think of Muslims". Although it is still not coirrect, but it is more related. 2- Bombing and accidents: Discussed already. 3- Killing threats and freedom of expression: Discussed as well. 4- Honour Killings: My English did not help me understand this but wikipedia did If you mean the definition in wikipedia, then that is contains mistakes. If you are talking about killing someone who commited a sexual sin while (s)he is married, then that is another issue. That is a part of Islam's do's and dont's and it has its own science, conditions, reasons, etc.. It is not the time to discuss why Islam says kill the killer or whip the sexual sinner because that has nothing to do with respecting the religions, it is internal instructions that Muslims follow. So, only following a religion does care about what the instructions are. We, as Muslims, we consider these instructions our protection and we are proud of them, which is hard to explain to others. You will need to study that by yourself. 5- Female circum...: This is one of the misconceptions that are brightly highlighted to give a bad idea about Islam. This operation was not introduced by Islam at all! Islam only enhanced it by instructing whoever will do it, if they will, not to take much of that thing. So, this is not Islamic. It is a general issue that Islam talked about handling it. I agree If any religion teaches hate and violence, it should not be preached. But this is not the case with Islam. 1. I talked before about the difference between Islam and what those who say the follow it do. 2. I also talked about the importance of reading why every verse was said. It is not enough to read the verse itself. Even here, between Muslims, you should not understand the meaning of a verse without knowing why it was sent. 3. A verse says what means "He who kills someone is considered as if he killed all human being and he who makes someone live is considered as if he makes all human being live." It is quite simple: don't attack me and we will live in peace. "And don't kill the soul that Allah prohibited its killing except for an allowed reason." "Call people to the road of Allah with wisdom and kind speech and discuss issues with them in the best words." I am done Anyone likes to get involved here?
I would like to say something about freedom of speech, If i would insult a person through the media i am liable for slander and can be fined for doing so. If i insult or talk negatively about an action or abstract thinking or belief such as religion through out the media then i am merely expressing my oppinion and views. Some media outlets will condone it and some will not but this is a personal choice of the people that are authorized to publish my thoughts or views. That is the freedom we have and will continue to express.
^^ Yes, your words reflect the western kind of thinking, I still don't know if it's suitable for every cultures.
It took me a while to get free. Sorry for the delay Well. Instead of me trying to stress on the need for freedom restrictions, here is a very interesting article that was published recently. Please read it carefully. It simply says what I wanted to deliver but my English might not have helped me much. The American Society of International Law (www.asil.org) Article URL: http://www.asil.org/insights/2006/02/insights060207.html
I will highlight some of the lines later for faster reading for everyone. But I really think it is important for everyone to read it carefully. Latehorn: I agree but it is not really a matter of culture alone. It is a matter of media and governmental rule! I will try to explain that in details later because it is very important as well. Thank you.
American's are quick to assert their so called God Given rights. However, we have let responsibility go out the window. You can't have one without the other. Freedom of speech don't mean you can say whatever you want. Too bad too sad, it just don't work that way.
I'm against all religions and if you look up the scriptures even Jesus attacked religions. But I believe in the Love of Jesus who offered himself for all mankind. - I call it faith in his teaching, - "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for" - and not religion. God is Love
A word to democracy Look up Salomos verses where it says, "good results (progress) are reached through the counsel of many".
Quite right and responsible. Thanks And to help build a bridge here, here is an extension: From one side, the West cares about freedom and does not care about responsibility and respect. Everybody can do whatever he wants unless it is illegal. But there are many things that are wrong yet legal! From the other side, the East cares much about respect and responsibility (neglect the ignorant crowds) but has less understanding and practising for freedom! Why? Not because of the religions or beliefs. Unfortunately, that is because of the governments and ruling laws. The developing countries, almost all of them, suffer from rotten rules and governments for ages now. Nobody can say anything about the government, ancient legal rules rule, you have to pay the government to get your services done, you BETTER not have any political views , etc. (Egypt is moving forward to a better atmosphere recently indeed). Thus, people has learned, from their ancestors, that you have to obey. Otherwise, nobody would find you anywhere. So, when the West sees this lack of freedom at the East, it will logically assign that idea to the religions and beliefs! In fact, religions are all about understanding, freedom, tolerance. etc. This time, it is the governments and the ages of slavery. So, this is one issue that needs to be well explained to both parties and understood by them.
Everybody has the right to choose his religion (including having none). And it is good for you to have faith because this is one step towards understanding (from my opinion).
So you are against all religions as you said? I doubt it. And sorry because my English is not so good. So, if you please explain every quote, that would be nice.
That's interesting, because most Muslims outside of the United States appear to believe that the penalty for leaving Islam is death. What religion do you belong to?
Believing is not religion!!! Faith is what counts!!! Faith in the One - JESUS- who was and is the "ONLY BEGOTTEN SON" To pay for our and your sins and put us into rightstanding with God again. The Name of JESUS, -which you and I are allowed to use for being forgiven!!! Further reference? read the scriptures Lordo, I know where you come from and - is well known as the - so quiet Egypt (until now) and which is considered as the center of Islam - or the eye of the hurricane of Islam. Repent!!! and love and forgiveness to you
Will: You missed the whole story or what? We discussed this in details here: http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=58829 Quran says what means: (and the speech is directed to the Prophet) "And if they don't believe in you and what you say to them, then say: I have my belief and deeds and you have your beliefs and deeds. What I believe and do won't harm you (if they are wrong). And what you believe and do won't harm me (if they are wrong)." Also, "I will not believe in what you believe. And you are not believing what I believe. Hold to your beliefs and I will hold to my beliefs." So, it is obvious that you can choose your religion.
Lordo: Let me make sure that I am reading you correctly. You are saying that a person who is currently a Muslim can choose a new religion without penalty of death? What sort of new-age Islam is this that you belong to?
LOL You got me wrong I was serious when I said I don't understand the exact meaning of the quotes because my English is not that perfect. You thought I was making fun of you but I didn't. I still need to understand the meaning of your quotes. I didn't even get the very first one of Solomon Peace Be Upon Him. That is to clear anything that might have been inserted by accident. Also, I am not talking against any religion here, including Christianity! In fact, I have no single reason, as a Muslim, to talk against any religion! 1. As I said before in the "help me and I will give you rep" thread, the Christian understanding of Jesus is different from the Islamic understanding. Islam simply accepts Jesus, Peace Be Upon Him, as a messenger of Allah (just like Moses, Noah, Ibraham, Mohamed and ther other prophets) and as the messeger who was given some unique miracles. Islam does not accept the idea of Allah having sons where christianity says god has. 2. "Repent" I already converted from Christianity to Islam (well, my ancestors did). So, I have no current problem. Again, this is not a thread that is against any religion. Why did you understand it is?