I would just like to say that if God left his traces in science, wouldn't everyone believe in Him ? The failure of science to prove God kind of fits the concept of the 'believing in the unseen' as explained in major religions. Just my $0.02 Peace.
The concept of "believing in the unseen" is simply a way to get idiots to believe in something that doesn't exist.
Wow, stOx not only knows everything possible to know, he can do everything possible to do. stOx thinks he is god! Now that would be interesting to see. Of course history and current events record the blind seeing, the lame walking, the dead living again, etc, etc. Why not? Death of the weak is integral to your belief in natural selection. Where do you get your morals that killing is wrong? Like everything came from nothing? Like life miraculously (impossibly) happened by chance? Like birds came from reptiles and whales from cows?
st0x obviously doesn't know everything, everything is not possible to know. Your logic is flawed, your belief in god overwrites rationality. The blind seeing could have been faking it, same with the lame walking and with the dead, they have been 1/1000000000 cases where doctors using scientific methods have been able to perform standard procedure that produced unlikely and statistically improbable results. Just because natural selection exists doesn't mean we like it or not, just because you like (or love) god doesn't mean he exists, we just can't love anything that we don't believe is true. When something is real and evident in everyday life we choose either to love of hate (or have a neutral opinion of it). The answer to your question is that he got his morals from western society where we are raised being told that killing is wrong, in ancient cultures killing may have been the "right" thing Your second remark about the birds and whales is completely stupid so I'm not going to bother arguing on that point but if you think that it's stupid that "everything came from nothing" then where did your god come from? You can't answer that, so evidently you've just contradicted yourself....and further you said "Like life miraculously (impossibly) happened by chance?", well if "life miraculously (impossibly) happened by chance", then (again), what did god come from....just insert his name: "Like god miraculously (impossibly) happened by chance?" I rest my case
I have a question for you. If you believe God does not exist based on your "not believing in the unseen". I would like to find out your beliefs in spirits? I will put something to you that happened many times over a period of 3 years with some family and friends: Lifting Some of my family members dabbled in withcraft/spells etc.. and I mean reading up a lot of books on it and performing some minor things. However, one of my family members decided to put one thing to the test. Lifting. Lifting is like a ritual where one person sits in a chair, 4 people surround the seated one. The four perform a ritual for a few minutes. They put their two index fingers together. Two put these fingers under knee joints and the other two the same but for for armpit joint. Then all four lift the person up above their heads effortlessly. Now, when I first witnessed this. I mocked and thought "there's some sort of physiology that can explain why this happens." I decided to test this out with my eldest brother. He was at the time 6 foot 5 and weighed about 120kgs. I then arranged for the 4 shortest and slimmest girls to do the ritual. To my amazement, he went up effortlessly. Science can not explain this logically. However, much later in life I learned what the Bible says in these types of matters. It explained it a lot more logically. So, st0x. Your thoughts on this? Or are you going to call me a liar again? I am sure there are a lot of people in the world who have seen this themselves. Let's see where evolution fits into this scene. Regards, Col
Actually, Col, this is explained quite easily by science. I'll give you a related example. I teach Aikido. In this martial art - "Ai - Ki - Do," "Harmonizing Energy Way," or "way of harmonizing with energy," we routinely work with beginning students by demonstrating the power of "locked" force v. "flowing" force, through two, simple things - "Orenaite," or "unbendable arm," and "agaranai karada," or "unliftable body." I won't go into too much (it's better seen, and felt, than talked about), except it's pretty amazing to see a little kid maintain an "unbendable arm" against a vastly stronger partner, or be "unliftable" by same. Not truly unbendable, or unliftable, but properly applied, it's pretty damn hard to do either, against even considerably weaker, in physical terms, people. It's a good road in to proper relaxation, and true, physical power, which is why it's taught. On the other hand, when I was a kid, I was involved with a rather sham martial art - out of at least a modicum of respect to the guy* who at least gave me my first taste in training (nearly 40 years ago now - man, where have the years gone?), I won't name him or his "system" here (only titillate the truly curious). Suffice it to say, he's also a magician (and practicing his show - both martial and magical - even now, apparently, as a quick look on the web showed). One of the demonstration tricks he used to do was the very example you give - 4 kids lifting a grown person from a chair, in the manner you describe. Another was to break boards on a person's belly, with only their heels and head placed on two chairs, the person's body otherwise suspended in air. There is nothing "magic" or supernatural about any of these things - they involve learning what it is to relax properly, so that the body isn't unduly disrupted or imbalanced by an opposing force. In such a way, one can avoid having one's arm "bent," can become "heavy" and rooted to the ground, can lift a seemingly impossibly heavy person with little effort. The same principle applies, for instance, when I demonstrate to my students a throw with one finger. Properly applied, it shows how little effort is needed, when timing, positioning and movement, and the right application of focussed physical power is made. Improperly applied, it's simply a carnival trick. *(Mr. Harold _______, of ___-___ Dojo School of _______ Self Defense).
We are not talking about a profession here. Simply, some people found out about it, tried it, and it worked. No "learning" as you say. There is no scientific explanation how 4 weak and small females can lift up a 120kg man above their heads using their fingertips without any effort. I do know about your "philosophy". I have looked into this before. However, this is very different to what you are talking about. Col
Col, does it not strike you as odd that the exact thing you did in your living room, with the supposed help of "spirits," has been going on for decades, at least as far as I personally experienced it and can attest; by folks not predisposed to any religious faith; who couldn't do it when they attempted to do it by raw force; who, after being shown a few simple things - briefly, bend your knees, drop your body down, do not use close your fist and lock your power in one point, do not your arms like levers, rather lift, extend, etc., with the center of your body, etc. - are able to do it with ease. This "learning" is in the first class, usually, and takes about 30 seconds. In other words, nothing mystical. No more mystical than anything else I've learned and teach. It has nothing to do with "philosophy" of any kind. It's a physical, tangible, teachable thing - relaxation, focused power. And the rudiments, not the "advanced training methods" are in the "tricks" we've been discussing. I am sorry - my intent is not to disrespect your religious faith. But you made a statement, posed a challenge, and as I have hundreds of real-world examples of what you are talking about, I have made my statement. I know in my world, it is dangerously prone to hype - "ki," imparted by some wispy, white-bearded sage imparting some "spiritual" force. But it isn't anything like this, at least not in my nearly 40 years of doing this thing. If anything, what "spirituality" that has come has come, for me, anyway, at the end of sweat and tears - physical training - what the Japanese call tanren, or "forging the spirit" (like doing 1000 cuts at dawn, when it's 25F - the spirit is, uh, forged indeed!): But that is the subject of another thread.
Fair comment. It's interesting about the word "spirit" in this context. The instructions you mention about "bending knees etc..". there was none of that in this "lifting" situation. It was a straight lift, no training, no preparation, using different sets of people, lifting different people at times. I certainly believe the body is more powerful than we conceive. However, I certainly believe this to be somewhat different. Regards, Col
I wasn't there, so I actually have no right, of course, to judge what did or didn't happen. Guess it just caught my funny bone, struck me as peculiar, that a very like thing (literally - 4 kids, one adult; two knees, two armpits, lifting up above their head) was taught to me, 40+ years ago, by a guy who is a magician-cum-martial "Founder." if memory serves, the only difference with what we did and what you described is we used one hand, with the index and second finger together. All else was exactly the same. (The "dropping center" things I mentioned were part of my early Aikido training, not the stuff from when I was a kid. To be honest, my memory is hazy on anything else taught by Mr. ______, those decades ago. What I do remember from then - remember, I was 6-8, somewhere in there - is that these things were really just tricks used to demo, in order to sucker more parents into giving money and putting kids in class; even then, I saw the snake oil aspect of this guy's handiwork).
lol you think four people wouldn't be able to effortlessly pick up 120kg? This is a trick, We used to do this at school, Without any god and without any spells or witchcraft. It only looks like it's something amazing because you don't expect it to happen. See this is the fundamental problem with you. As soon as you find it hard to explain something you instinctively believe the cause to be magic. I don't see how this is connected to spirits, God or evolution though. Can you try to write more fluidly instead of darting off in to various unrelated tangents please, It would make educating you easier.
This is the whole point st0x. You said it yourself. It is a trick. Exactly how is it a trick? Remember, you are the one who likes to think of oneself as a logical person using science. Have a go explaining this one please? Regards, Col
I already explained it. Why do you constantly need things repeated to you? it's because 120kg isn't very much for 4 people to lift up. It only looks amazing because you don't expect it to happen.
You have not explained a thing. Where is all your big words huh? You don't have any for this because you simply don't know why. Your answer is exactly what I expected. Thanks! Col
What? I explained it. 120kg isn't a lot for four people to pick up. I don't know how else to explain it to you. That is the reason four people can pick him up, it's because it's not a lot of weight for four people to lift. It's as simple as that. I kinda have to laugh thinking about you and all your christian friends sitting around doing spells and being amazed when four people can pick up a single person and then coming to the conclusion that you little experiment in some way proves that god/faries/unicorns/santa exists. Think about it you clown, You are asking for a scientific explanation as to why four people can lift one person! It's simple, there are four of them!!!!
Are you for real?? You are soooooooo far away from the context from this discussion. Out of a 10,000 rung ladder you are 9,999 steps away from being regarded as correct and what's this about fairies and unicorns????. Unbelievable
tell me why you think four people couldn't lift a single person. What is so astounding about four people being able to lift 30kg each? I don't understand why you see this as being such a miraculous feat.