Quran burnt in Florida Church

Manning didn't even know what he was providing for most of the documents he stole. The contents were unknown until Assange cracked the encryption(his specialty). Hard to see how that would qualify as whistle blowing. He may not get lethal injection based on his cries of whistleblowing, but he will more than likely spend the rest of his days behind bars.

 

Read the links to the UCMJ that've been provided (several times). His motive for stealing classified documents and delivering them to a foreign national isnt a factor. The question before the military court is whether or not he committed the act. If so (which is not in doubt), the question is whether they put him in a penitentiary or in front of a firing squad.

WAGER TIME: Put up or shut up
You're keep saying I'm wrong, so let's make it interesting... when they announce the verdict, loser has to change their DP sig to "I am a moron" for one year.

 

If you do not believe in the US Constitution the above and its referral should be helpful or the Nuremberg trials after WWII or the Geneva Convention.......

Combatants murdering unarmed civilians, if you do not know is a criminal offense - classifying the evidence is not acceptable and is complicit to the crime.

Screaming at people in a drunken stupor (Put up or shut up) is likewise unmannerly among other disparities.

Your using the word "Moron" is interesting because many do believe already, those who supported the illicitly devised Iraqi war of WMD (a joke) are already as you describe so why wager an already given - not to mention likewise driving the nation into the Great Republican Recession and then pandering the work the liberals have had to do to prevent your recession from becoming a Depression.

So, trying to be polite - why wager an already existing condition.

 

Breeze you put down the hooka for a min to post some real words . Unfortunately you're still a long way to get to reality . The Global recession was caused by financial instability coupled with a shift in wealth caused by excessive outsourcing and trade deficit . This is why China and India grew while the others shrank .

 

Breeze... you're tap dancing around the topic. I say he'll get tossed in the penitentiary at the end of the trial. You say he'll be acquitted. We can't both be right.

If you're so sure I'm wrong... why are you afraid to make a simple bet with nothing but a sig link at stake?

 

I haven't the faintest what the defendant is actually intending for the trial - no words from the accused I am aware of - I simply at this time believe what he has done is an improvement for a civilized nation over those who invade a defenseless nation on false pretenses, drive their own nation into a ditch while doing it and pander for a corrupt philosophy. Your entireties are baseless as I have already pointed out what already exists does not need a second helping.

 

TRANSLATION FROM BREEZE TO ENGLISH
Breeze said: In my childlike opinion he should be acquitted because I approve of his actions, regardless of the fact that he broke military law, but since he really will be convicted I won't make the bet. Having painted myself into a corner I shall now change the subject.

 

Notice how none of this is in the first person? "A civilized nation" not "my civilized nation" or "our civilized nation. "Their own nation" not "my own nation" or "our own nation".

So now that we have established you are not American, we just need to establish where it is you are from. My guess is some island in the Carribean or South Pacific.

 

You two are a joke.....I suppose one could include the Ten Commandments (Apoc.) and the pronouncement of the "Three Musketeers" however the originals being chivalrous what can be said for a red-neck, heretic or a carpetbagger?

 

Wow... I get Nigerian bank scam emails worded more naturally than your posts.

Anyway, obviously you're still trying to change the topic since your bluff was called on that nonsense you were peddling. If you change your mind the offer for a bet is still open. It'd be funny to watch you try to crawfish when you lose.

 

It's a shame that every American isn't rallying behind Manning.

Daniel Ellsberg's "Pentagon Papers" turned America against the war in Vietnam after he exposed what was really going on there. Manning did the same thing. Both of these men are national heroes that kept our government in check and they deserve statues in DC.

 

Whilst I agree Manning 'should' be put in the same class as Ellsburg, I think putting a statue up of him in America would be like putting a statue of Mo up in a Muslim country. It would last all of an hour, based on the Americans thoughts of him here.

RobJones, what happens to the bet if he is show trialled and jailed, only to be aquitted after a month once the real Americans stand up in his defence?

 

I know nothing about how Australian law is set up, but on this end the trial ends with a verdict... So there couldn't be an acquittal a month later. This differs from the Ellseberg case significantly in that this guy is a serving member of the US military, subject to military law, and it prescribes a very defined punishment for the crime he's already said he did. He doesn't consider it a crime, and you don't, but the UCMJ clearly describes it as one. Short of a pardon from the president he's set himself by his own hand on a road that at best leads to a very long prison term.

Btw, the presidential pardon isn't anything to hold out hope for. I have no doubt that deep down Obama is somewhere to the left of most folks in this country... But he's running for reelection. His greatest loyalty is not to ideology, it's to reelection. He'd be handing the election to the GOP on a platter if he pardoned a guy that willfully committed an act that that point for point fits the definition of espionage. Isn't gonna happen. He wants a second term.

 

Manning exposed what was really going on in Viet Nam? Or was it some other revelation that Manning gave to us? Please let us know what it is when you figure it out.

Yes but, there is a very real chance Obama doesn't get a second term. His poll numbers have dropped by 6 points on the average, mostly from his liberal base, in the last 2 weeks. If he doesn't get a second term, he could very well throw Manning a pardon on the way out the door. I don't see it happening, but it could.

 

Well personally I do think he's a hero to us anti-war types, I also understand just because I disagree with the law, the law is still the law and it seems he has broken it, even though I think it was the right thing to do. I would like to see the T&C he signed to say he wouldn't do it.

Unfortunately the courts (here at least) don't get to argue the validity of the law during a case and judges can only act on what the law decrees. I think Breeze Wood has it right arguing that Manning's actions will eventually lead to the betterment of society though I do wonder why noone's arguing for a trial of the neocons yet when there's so many documentaries out now pointing to them as the cause. As it stands it seems to me Americans are happy to be lied to even when it causes unneccessary, albeit illegal deaths, as long as it's overseas and outta sight?

@robjones - your insistence that Manning had 'admitted' his crime. Are you talking about the known criminal Lamo's statements or something new Manning has said to captors?

 

I now how this must look outside of the US, but it's a complicated issue here.

Liberals would love nothing more than to protest against the military like it's the 1970s again. The problem is that over the past decade conservatives have successfully positioned our soldiers as heroes that can do no wrong. It is now extremely taboo here to say anything bad about them or even the military in general. So the liberals pretty much have tape over their mouths and can't say what needs to be said to end these wars. And believe me, if we could play by 1970s rules our guys would have been brought home years ago.

Conservatives on the other hand stand by the military through every controversy no matter how vile it is. This isn't a matter of them being lied to. They have the truth, but nothing gets in the way of their mindset that there are no civilians in Iraq or Afghanistan - everyone is fair game. They believe that if civilians are not actively fighting against terrorists and insurgents, then they deserve to die also. There was a story here recently of a "kill team" that targeted civilians for fun. One of their victims was a 15-year-old boy working in a field. They called him over, shot him and then cut his little finger off to dry out and keep as a trophy. Conservatives generally speaking saw nothing wrong with this story. American conservatives are some of the most disgusting people on the planet. There is this constant promotion of killing and hate.

Hopefully this paints a clear picture of what we are dealing with here.

 

Was this a Wikileaks revelation? How bout Abu Ghraib? Again, still waiting for the revelation Manning/Assange made public that made all their actions worthwhile.

Hehe. This I don't doubt. I bet you can picture yourself spitting on returning soldiers, calling them baby killers. Ah the good ol' days.

 

He was hoping his "legacy" was going to be a structural shift in the US health system. The bill that passed without being read (everyone on Capitol Hill must be nuts) is apparently set for the chopping block, but will be remembered as a clusterfuck even if it lives.

Still that's the closest he's come to following up on a campaign promise. He hasnt ended either of the wars his base elected him to end, didnt close down Guantanamo as he promised, the economy is still sucking wind, the budget's a disaster, cutbacks havent happened, the deficit is growing exponentially, Wall Street still uses the government as a piggybank while awarding themselves bonuses, and on Main Street folks are either looking for a job or finding the one they have wont feed them.

Given that all the stuff he promised to do if elected... vanity would prevent him from chancing that the act he's remembered for is a pardon to someone convicted of stealing and delivering classified docs to a foreign national to be used against the country. Benedict Arnold (a name synonymous with "traitor") was hung for actions similar to Mannings. Obama won't let that be the defining action of his presidency.

He admitted it online before capture, even detailing the method. That's how how he got caught. I'm sure Bushranger isnt your real name, but if you were in here telling us details about how you'd just committed a criminal act that was about to hit the headlines it'd be hard to convince authorities later that is wasnt you. Separating himself from his online persona would be a tough trick.

Dubdub - Outside P&R I havent seen a single post you've typed that I'd disagree with. I've seen several that deserve green. Why the heck are you resorting to obvious strawman tactics once you get in here? Have you seen anything I've ever written (or anyone else here for that matter) that suggests support for actions like that?

The guys that did that should be tried and shot. While its a bad idea to impose Monday morning quarterbacking on decisions made under fire and mistakes do happen, death by friendly fire is a "mistake"... a kill squad targeting innocent civilians for sport is a "capital crime". It clearly should be prosecuted as such.

There's nobody here I can think of that'd take the position you've errantly ascribed to conservatives. Please argue against positions we've actually taken, not imaginary ones you've concocted just to knock down.

 

I am basing this on two things.

1. Most of the news stories posted online about the incident were packed with conservatives in the comments section making such statements. They were also saying this stuff on conservative chat forums like FreeRepublic.

2. People say things online that they would never say offline. The online stuff is what they are really thinking.

So put 1 and 2 together.

Sure, there are sensible conservatives just like not every liberal wants to spit on returning soldiers. But deep down, the vast majority of this country is either far right or far left.

When it comes to military issues, the left simply does not like the military. If you are a liberal and your kid joins the military, you are seen as a failure as a parent. Whereas it is very important for the right since so many of them or a child or other family member or friend is serving. They just don't want to believe that things are going wrong. To this day they still talk about how they could have won Vietnam if given more time.

 

Samples:
-- Conservatives on the other hand stand by the military through every controversy no matter how vile it is.
-- They believe that if civilians are not actively fighting against terrorists and insurgents, then they deserve to die also.
-- American conservatives are some of the most disgusting people on the planet. There is this constant promotion of killing and hate.


Again... I've seen nothing in this forum from anyone considered "a conservative" that remotely supports what you've ascribed to conservatives "generally". You made several blanket statements about what conservatives think or believe. We are online, so if anyone here held those opinions by your own reasoning we'd have said it. Your blanket statements of blind support describe no speakers in DP that I've seen.

It's always safe to say what YOU believe, but not what someone else believes. The first you can say with authority. Unless you have quotes to back it the second is a guess. Ascribing to all conservatives positions held only by people on the far fringe of the whacko right isn't any more appropriate than me taking the most anarchist views I've seen stated and ascribing them to all liberals.

The conversation will have more meaning if we describe our own positions and support them or quote others members stated positions and say why they're insupportable instead of suggesting everyone on the opposite side of an argument holds unfathomably dumb positions for which they've never shown support.