"a lot"? In the US I am sure that the number lost due to AIDs would be insignificant to the number killed by refusing proper medical treatment.
It's not slander and it's kind of unusual that a JW uses such attacking terms. I am a Christian and believe in the inerrant, inspired word of God. You follow the Watchtower who modify the Bible to fit their doctrine and change doctrine when the leadership feels like it. When was the blood transfusion doctrine articulated, 1945? And when were the blood products and other exceptions added? Tell me, have you truly heard of someone that picked up a properly translated version of the Bible that read it and arrived at the same set of doctrines that the Watchtower tells you to believe? If you attempt to say yes, make sure they had Jesus being Michael the archangel (on a level with Lucifer prior to his fall), make sure they were shunning normal family gateherings like birthdays and holidays, make sure they reject all others that take up the Bible and get an interpretation different than some self proclaimed athority in Brooklyn, NY, and make sure they believe in taking partial blood products only and are willing to have their children die over it? How many have you met?
There's plenty more about deaths and illness the world over, caused directly as a result of the transfusion of blood products. That's without even starting to address the problems caused to cancer patients and others by the suppression of the immune system after blood is transfused - even your own blood! Or other deaths and bad reactions caused by giving people the wrong blood - the most common hazard of blood transfusion in the UK. Jehovah's Witnesses refuse blood on the basis of a bible command, many non-JW's refuse blood on the basis of health grounds.[/quote] Nice one sided argument. How many people were died of what you mentioned and how many died following the rule the Watchtower made up in 1945? Please note the spread of AIDs in Africa is due to earlier efforts to vaccinate where people trying to do good reused syringes and spread the disease. I trust you weren't trying to deceive in that case, just don't use that in future arguments.
Well I am not a JW but IMO the thought that God wouldn't want someone to get a blood transfusion is just silly. Think about it... God gave men great minds to develop ways to keep people alive. I believe its a godsend, not a curse. my 2 cents
No more one-sided than yours - mine has third-party documented evidence for the deaths of thousands directly as a result of blood transfusions. If you have evidence for thousands dying as a result of JW's refusing the transfusion of blood because of the bible's prohibition, then produce it. The facts are that thousands of people are dying the world over directly as a result of being given blood, thousands more are being infected with the likes of Hepatitis, West Nile Virus, Chagas Disease and many others. Thousands of cancer patients are at increased risk of recurrence due to being given blood, thousands suffer multiple organ failure and transfusion-related acute lung injury. You want to argue safety of blood, better get some facts real quick!
So your argument is that thousands have died due to medical treatment involving blood products. If the entire world adopted the doctrine of the Watchtower millions would die by refusing conventional medical treatment. Please provide us with the numbers of JWs that die each year do to this doctrine. I am sure the Watchtower keeps records of its blood martyrs. Here's something from an interesting bit of a study I found from the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology (2001;185:893-895) So 24 JW moms hemorrhage and doctrine from some men killed two of them. If I was in charge I wouldn't hesitate to keep the moms alive and I might defend myself by saying "Oh Watchtower doctrine, I thought you said witch doctor thinking!"
Me? Attacking? All I did is accuse you of slander. You are the one calling us murderers. Maybe you have not used the term "murderer" but every thing you say about this against Jehovah's Witness screams your opinion. Grandad has provided evidence for you and plenty of it. Where's your evidence? You reckon you can talk the talk. Can you walk the walk? Surely, you can stop being so "grandiose" on your spiritual podium and maybe offer something positive to these threads in the P&R forums. All I can see from your posts is you trying to bring others down. What's you goal here? Whatever it is, it is certainly not a positive one.
I had a friend that was a member of another 19th century cult. They also created rules about medical treatment. He had a very curable condition but refused medical treatment and it killed him. He didn't live to see his kid's graduate college. You can guess how I felt about that religious organization that guided him to an early death and similar ones. If any one is grandiose it's the Watchtower and it's recruits. They are one of one of a number of religious systems that appeared (I guess the gates of hell had prevailed) in the last two hundred years and pronounced themselves the only true church. What I say probably won't affect arrogant Watchtower members but there are some that can stop and reflect and there are plenty of people wondering about the odd group and they might glean some light from the conversation.
What you say does affect me. It moves me to feel sorry for you that you feel and act so negatively towards a people that tries best to uphold God's principles according to what is written. I do appreciate your views on the principles written in the Bible, even though they might differ with my views. You and I are most likely similar when it comes to acting in faith to God's principles, according to how we understand them. I can only but defend your comments about the Watchtower Society and its purpose. However, it is not necessary from me. The Watchtower Society can speak for itself by how we as Witnesses pay attention to what they teach from God's Word. If you want evidence of Witnesses going by what the Bible teaches, you only need to speak to them to find out. The Bible is very clear to me. In fact, I study and read the Bible more than any other literature the Watchtower Society publishes. Why? Because it is used as a measuring stick. God's word is the template for all teachings from God. The publishing of literature from the Watchtower only reflects that template and does it very well. You see, I am not going to condemn you or judge you for your comments. You have every right to speak them. I might sometimes feel passionate about some of the things you have said. But, all in all, I must respect your views. Hope we can clear the air about this? Regards, Col
Cheap SEO, Let me remind you that it was the Watchtower that took the negative position. Charles Taze Russell was negative to all Christians and just about all of the core doctrines of the Christian church. It is interesting to see that you say that you study the Bible that much as study the Bible is how many people have been set free from the Watchtower. My brother in law was bing recruited to join the Watchtower by his father so he read the Bible cover to cover and concluded that the Watchtower and its doctrine. I don't know how anyone can honestly read the Bible and arrive at Watchtower theology. It is not what anyone came up with until the 1800s and since then only a small percentage of people adopt it. None of us can condemn anyone. We are all condemned sinners in need of a savior, Jesus, God incarnate not the Watchtower's Jesus, Michael the archangel.
tbarr60, Unfortunately, for you. Your views on Charles Russell is quite biased. He only taught from what the Bible teaches, given the times he was living in. Do you honestly believe anyone from that era had a great understanding of the Bible back then? Not even he did. he had a good understanding, but it is hardly comparable to how we understand it now. Although, what he did do is make public what was always in the Bible, and that is, God's purpose. Be as negative as you like matey. It's never going to change what I think or believe on the matter. I have done plenty of research and I have enough evidence for me. Jesus did say the road is narrow in Matthew 7:13-14. Hence, the small percentage going through it. Col
That is a completely idiotic conclusion and not based on fact whatsoever - thousands die as a result of having blood transfusions, thousands do not die as a result of refusing blood transfusions - FACT! You are the one saying that JW's die like flies from not accepting blood, you provide the factual evidence for that claim - you can't because you claim is based on bigotry not fact. Some will have died, exactly the same as others of other religions or no religion will have died despite blood transfusions or because of blood transfusions. So 24 JW mums haemorrhaged and 2 died in what was accepted as a very small (68) and unrepresentative study … have you any idea of the millions of women of all or no religion haemorrhaging during childbirth? Have you any idea of the numbers from all or no religion that die of blood loss during childbirth? What do you make of the following from the “The International Trauma Anesthesia and Critical Care Society� Or from the Englewood Hospital website (http://www.englewoodhospital.com):- Or other quotes:- Whether your bigoted view of Jehovah’s Witnesses can stand it or not, bloodless surgery is acknowledged by forward-thinking medical professionals as the “standard of care†for all patients, not just JW's. There are hundreds of medical papers that highlight the benefits of blood conservation and bloodless surgery; every year international medical conferences are held discussing ways to reduce the use of blood – would this be the case if it was because of some mad religious idea? Get real – God was right when He highlighted the sanctity and special nature of blood and medical professionals are now coming to appreciate that and are working at ways to make bloodless treatments available to everyone, not just Jehovah’s Witnesses. The ‘policy’ of no blood is a ‘God’ policy not a JW ‘policy’, JW’s merely highlight the importance of it … all Christians should do as it’s staring them in the face, there in the bible Genesis 9:3-6; Leviticus 17:10,11; Deuteronomy 23:12,13; 1 Samuel 13:34; Acts 15:28,29 – to name but a few.
If an earnest seeker picked up the Bible and read the following(Acts 21:25 KJV), his interpretation would be: don't eat things offered to idols, don't eat blood products, don't eat things that were strangled and don't fornicate. I don't think you can rationally deny that. Those that are spiritual wouldn't It's interesting to see JWs gettting worked up and using terms like bigot, idiot, etc and call me negative, that's ironic. I'll ignore the idiot comment but bigotry involves prejudging. I accept literature from JWs and even order some things like a Greek Interlinear, Reasoning from Scriptures, and a few other things. I am not prejudging as I have read your source material. So neither of you have answered my question, how many people have been martyred by this doctrine?
I think you forgot a word to go along with the other two ~ ignorant. Can't see how you deem either of us getting "worked up"? Let us not forget one important factor here. YOU are the one accusing, not us.
When JWs start using such words that is the most worked up I've seen them. Typically they run through their scripted response and leave before they start using the terms you two have been using. Remember the Watchtower came into existence when the true church was already over 1800 years old. They accuse the church of being wrong on every major doctrine. That is correct isn't it? I liken the JWs to the Pharisees in that they will strain at certain blood products but swallow a man made works based religion. The only difference is that the Pharisees at least had core biblical doctrine correct. So you haven't answered on the martyr count yet. I guess it's safe to assume that you know but don't want to or are not allowed to say.
And no good follower of the Watchtower should be on the forum as today is Wednesday and is the day named after the god Mars and they won't be here tomorrow as it is Thorsday named after the god Thor.