Congratulations to all the public option/health care reform opposition. Status quo achieved. http://www.americablog.com/2009/12/insurance-industry-insider-on.html
Oh make no mistake, this is quite worse than the status quo. The people stuck holding the bill are going to be small business employees, independent contractors, and sole proprietors - basically, the online economy demographic. Suddenly, we'll be forced to buy an inferior health product in an effort to subsidize the costs of those sitting on big corporate plans, individuals who aren't directly active in paying for or dealing with their insurance. Meanwhile, all the screwed up incentives of our medical machine stay nicely in tact and further insulated from the threat of non-participation (a consumer's last choice to protest the messed up priorities) Ah yeah, this is bad stuff. I guess I'll be paying the tax penalty unless I can find the loophole. Luckily, there's always a loophole...
Hmm.. I was expecting some conservative rejoicing. Alas, when you're against something just for the sake of being against it then you ending up winning it's hard to know what you're happy about. Don't you guys remember? You were against the public option because.... ?
Why would there be rejoicing? Republicans are completely out of the loop on this, or are you referring to conservative Democrats. Whether you are for or against a "public option", I don't think anyone has any room to cheer yet. The only thing that is for certain, is that some piece of legislation is going to get passed, probably with exactly 60 votes. What it looks like, how much it costs, what it provides, and who got bribed how much to sign it will probably not be known until the whole thing is a matter of historical record. That includes the public option.
Unfortunately the Republicans are completely out of this argument only works on those who either can't count or haven't been paying attention. Republicans haven been obstructionists from the start on this. I don't think anyone here would deny that. Sure they couldn't stop it on their own they needed the help of a few Democrats and they got it. I'm just saying posing a fillibuster and forcing a perfect 60 vote majority to pass anything since they've been out of power is hardly "out of the loop", no? As for the bill and the actual legislating that went on - The Republicans don't get credit for writing the bill. (In fact they don't even want you to know just hoe much of the bill is Republican legislation). Let's not forget they added HUNDREDS of amendments throughout this process. The bill, as the Democrats wrote it, doesn't even exist anymore. But that's a side discussion. Fact is the Republicans aren't even who I was talk about. I specifically said conservative rejoicing.
"We win," says it all. It need not be all about competition in a zero sum game. Health is hardly an appropriate playground for this kind of competition. Rejoice that the insurance industry will continue to post record profits while the ability of American's to access affordable health care becomes an ever more distant memory. Time to buy stock in Wellpoint and United Health Group. You can see by those links that they really have all of our best interests at heart...
Yeah big business won so conservatives should be happy. I suppose this means that all those billions in profit will now trickle down to the little guys and provide more jobs -- or some other ridiculous trickle down economics nonsensical idea. Fact is it doesn't matter what gets passed in HCR now. The insurance companies literally hold our lives in one hand (balancing it against profits in the other). They're powerful enough that if any law gets passed that they don't like they can make threats, pad a few pockets, and make it go away. We have no choice but to pay them for health care insurance. That's free market capitalism when it's unafraid of the government. You guys like it? Go ahead, bask in it....
I can count. The Dems have 60 votes in the Senate. They have no need for Republican votes. Trying to blame the Republicans for lack of votes from Democrats is ridiculous. Expecting Republican's to support Single Payer socialized health care is like expecting Democrats to support tighter abortion restrictions. Im assuming by that statement you are going to provide some link showing how the 2000+ pages of special favors and payoffs to various parties within the Democratic party are somehow the creation of the Republicans? I'm waiting, but please don't ask me to hold my breath. No more than the Democrats would be rejoicing over tighter abortion laws having a difficult time getting passed. Yeah big business won so conservatives should be happy. I suppose this means that all those billions in profit will now trickle down to the little guys and provide more jobs -- or some other ridiculous trickle down economics nonsensical idea. Say its not so!! Who in washington would take bribes, err campaign donations, from special interests. Certainly not Barney Frank. Or Chris Dodd. Or Charlie Rangle. Or Barrack Obama. The funny thing is, you think that once the govt. is the single payer for health care, the payoffs are going to stop. Fact of the matter is, it will just be a different group of lobbyists paying off our representatives, allowing the state to deliver less for more money. And our choice will be.... what? The word "them" implies choice. A choice between insurance companies. When the word "them" changes to the word "government", your choice will be gone. You talk about Health care/insurance reform like the world will come to an end if we don't fix it RIGHT NOW. Here is a question for you and crack smoker Willy. Where did the urgency come from. We have many problems in this country. The economy, jobs, two foreign wars, a trade deficit, a rapidly devaluing currency, rapidly rising debt, increasing taxes, and soon, inflation. How is it that health care reform worked its way to the top of that list, when there are so many other problems that most people find more immediately pressing? If B.O. put some other trillion dollar tax increase item as his number one legislative imperative, would you "band wagon" along because those were the talking points handed to you? Perhaps you fall into the extreme minority of people who actually believe this is the number one problem facing the nation at the moment(or at least you'll say that so as not to be called a mindless zombie)? The choices leave you either a person who is unable to think for themselves, or part of an extreme minority. Either way, it doesn't look good for you. Funnier still, even MSNBC (outside of Maddow and Olberman) is now starting to report this idiocy more accurately. The "stimulus" boondoggle, which was nothing more than a potpourri of payouts to various Democrat supporting special interests, was reported by MSNBC this morning to have created jobs at a price of a quarter million dollars per job created. These are the same people you blindly support. Hell, I was watching "chill up my leg" Chris Mathews the other night, talking about how the Democratic party is beholden to the trial attorney lobby, and for that reason, tort reform is not even a small part of this health care/health insurance reform. You know you are bat shit crazy when you are left of Mathews. We are talking Zibblu land here.
What in the heck are you talking about? This is about as far from a free market as you can get. This a government-sponsored cartel that's as bad as (probably worse than) any other corrupt thing government does. Its amazing though, that the Democrats could write such an awful bill while blaming it on the Republicans and the free market. The amount of cognitive dissonance that partisans can harbor will always shock me.
Bait and switch. If you want to pass health care reform, offer up a "public option" you are willing to "compromise" by removing it, that way people have that one thing to focus on, and the rest of the crappy bill can get passed without much opposition, even if it has more socialism. Increasing the line for medicaid to 150% of the poverty line, lowering the age for Medicare to 55, etc. Programs that are failing because they are broke and that depend on the private insurance to pay more to cover their underpayments (increasing cost for private insurance) are made larger and even more demanding of cash...
What urgency? The health care system has only been getting tweaked (often by conservative Administrations - take Dubya's Medicare perscription coverage as an example) for the last 75 years or so. At the time the current process was begun a majority of Americans saw affordable health care as a significant issue needing to be addressed. Your argument appears to be that if political winds change in the middle of a long process then initiatives in progress should be dropped. That would be a recipe for disaster, insuring that no significant legislation would ever pass. Regarding Repubs absence from the current proposals, I think the record clearly shows that it is intentional on the Repubs part - part of an overall strategy of refusal to compromise on anything (a contrived position of "principals") and through gridlock to create the illusion of incompetence on the part of their opponents. Now, tell me why you are so utterly unable to engage in rational debate sans personal insult? Perhaps you think reference to smoking crack is entertaining? In fact, your insults speak far more to your own credibility and bias than anything else. It does, however, seem pretty consistent across most of the radical right, from Rush to Beck et. al., that personality trumps principal. "If I can not debate on the merits of my position I can certainly slander my opponent," seems to be the rule of the day amongst you and yours. Sad....
The "urgency" you speak of is another tactic, if they can get you to believe it is a "crisis" they can get bad legislation passed with less scrutiny. It is clear that this "urgency" never existed by the fact that they wait 5 years after the taxes begin before implementing anything, ensuring that it is the next president (in 2013) that will be left holding that bag when the mess hits the fan and that the negative aspects will not effect this President in the next election. It's again, a political tactic like the "public option" was... A distraction to get you to look at one thing while they pass something you wouldn't have passed if most of the public payed attention.
Willy, I've read your entire post, yet I can't find the part where you answered the urgency question. Maybe you can point it out to me? It seems your explanation is that a trillion dollar overhaul of our health care system was already in progress and to stop working at it would be irresponsible. If that is what you are implying, you will have answered this question from your post yourself: I tend to use the phrase "crack smoking" when people represent things that have no basis in reality or the historical record as fact. Sure you mentioned that the health care system is constantly being tweaked, which is true. A multi trillion dollar overhaul which provides a taxpayer sponsored govt. run health insurance company that raises premiums and doesnt even cover everyone, however, was not being actively pushed forward until Obama took office. Why deny this? So please, provide me both the time, and the poll at that time that put health care above the other issues. Otherwise, admit you are either delusional, a crack smoker, or you are just making this stuff up. Two points. 1) The appearance being presented by pretty much every media outlet is that the Republicans would only be invited to the debate if they are willing to disavow free market principals. Even the Democrat pressers don't claim to have engaged the Republicans for input. They simply call them obstructionists to the socialized health care program they are pushing. Now there is a surprise. 2) The Republicans don't need to do anything more to make the Democrats look incompetent than the Democrats need to do to make the Republicans look the same. They all appear to be more or less equally beholden to special interests, interested only lining their own campaign coffers and retaining their elected positions at any cost. The real problem the Democrats face in pushing this initiative through is a general support of less than 40% of the American population. It appears to be a given that the Republicans are going to gain seats in 2010, so many Democrats are thinking about doing what it takes to make sure it isn't their seat that is given up. What you call insults, I call asking you to wake up to reality. I'm sure alcoholics and drug addicts feel insulted at first when their loved ones have the intervention that forces them to face the lies they have based their life on. Your posts are filled with opinion, nothing more. The logic behind your opinion is inscrutable. You don't even spend the time to present some loosely related facts and twist them to suit your needs. Then you have the temerity to get butt hurt because I point out that fact and equate it to crack smoking. I love you man! I'm just tryin to help here. If you want to see real blind hatred, perhaps you should look at a few of the people cheering on the person who threw tomatoes at Sarah Palin. Agree or disagree with the woman(I'm personally no big fan), but throw tomatoes and cheer that kind of idiocy on?
Your credibility will only increase as you move away from the personal insults - if you are able... Urgency? Health care spending is roughly 16% of GDP, having increased from about 5% in 1960, and from less than 14% in 2000 to its current level (with no sign of itn going anywhere but up). You can see a nice summary here. The current system works so well that nearly half of Americans have (or have a family member who has) experienced negative impacts on their ability to access healthcare due to cost. See this. As far as changing political winds, you might find this interesting. There you will see that in March 2007 Health Care was by far and away seen as the 2nd most mentioined issue important to the public, eclipsed only by Iraq. (The economy was a somewhat distant 3rd.) By April 2008 health care had slipped to 3rd, Iraq to 2nd, both eclipsed by the economy. In April 2009 a solid majority (59%) of those polled supported "It is more important than ever to take on health care reform now." As of November 2009 the number of Americans endorsing taking on health care reform now was up to 68%, although there was much disagreement about the merits of where Congress was headed. I know you hate to be confused by the facts, but there is help available.
To your points. Your link is to a WSJ non-scientific survey asking people about health care. I'm not even going to comment on this until you provide an article explaining the details of what you here describe. Like most of America, I've experienced the negative effects of larger government in my paycheck. What is your point? So lets review: 1) None of your polling data ever shows it being the number one issue. 2) The only poll you present showing 59% support for taking it on now does not compare it to any other issue, and was done in April of this year, right after the President announced it was HIS number one issue. Since you omitted those types of recent comparisons, I've taken the liberty of providing them. http://www.pollingreport.com/prioriti.htm You'll notice Healthcare comes in at under 20% while the economy comes in at over 40%. So getting back to the urgency, how does ushering in an economy killing 2 trillion dollars in new taxes help what by far and away most American's see as the nations biggest problem? http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub...support_for_health_care_plan_falls_to_new_low 68%? or 38%... hmm who to believe. Obviously, someone has their information wrong. Based on the ancillary information from the other poll I linked, I think you'll find the 68% number is misleading you (and the rest of the people who are about legislate the end of their collective terms in office). Ooooo testy! And hypocritical too! I thought you were against these types of "insults". I'm pleased you provided links, even though none of them provided verification of the urgency you claimed exists. Even if such urgency did exist, to link the current one sided health care proposals being considered to what the American people would have considered urgent is a big reach. Try again.
So, Congress should only consider the number one issue on the people's mind at any given time? Makes a whole lot of sense to me You really should read the links I have provided. November 2009 Let's see, 35 + 33 is........ 68% of Americans are in favor of reform now. And, only 1 in 4 (that would be 25% for the numerically disadvantaged) don't want to see Congress address the issue now at all. That is a huge majority of Americans wanting Congress to deal with the health care issue - right now, just as they are doing. But you can't figure out why Congress is considering the issue? FWIW, I am one of the 33% that doesn't like what I am hearing about the current legislation. Even Mia would agree with me when I say that regulation of the insurance industry has to be a part of any successful approach to containing health care costs - something that is sorely lacking. That is why insurance industry insiders are proclaiming, "We win!" And if they win, well, ask yourself, who loses. They only understand a zero sum game - no win/win is possible in their paradigm. Oh, I thought that given you fixation on crack and weed you might benefit from that last link I gave you
It's going to take a strong force to change America and I'm not just talking about health care. The whole system is getting worst as greed starts to set in. Everyone wants a piece of the American dream and now people are feeling being more corrupt than the next guy is the only option. There's a ton of good eggs, but there's also a ton of bad eggs that just don't care anymore as long as they can watch the people die from their mansions. I love America, but this country is crazy and all the left and ring wing w/e they are just love to fight, fight, and fight over and over and over again... There's no quick fix, but time may be running out if were not careful. America is strong, but lets remember every strong nation in history has fallen at some point.
When the fix to the issue that 12% of Americans feel is the number one priority(health care) sets back the issue that 47% of Americans feel is the number one priority(the economy), then yes, perhaps you should only focus on the most important issue. The alternative is to take an approach to the low priority issue in a way that doesn't do damage to the high priority item. I did, but I'm thinking you didn't reed mine. Your logic is flawed as usual. 80% of people may think we should have social programs that help the poor, but when you ask the question, should we spend a couple trillion dollars on it at this particular moment in time, you get a very different answer. Unfortunately, our dear leader isn't asking that second question. Like you, he just quotes statistics like the ones you provided to prop up this path of decision making. 38% is a huge majority? You obviously didn't follow my links. Tempted to whip out the "crack smoking" comment again. You mean the majority. The legislators who want to put them out of business? I'm not sure what you do for a living, but if the govt. said they were going to get in competition with me in my business and use my own taxpayer dollars to do it, I'd be happy they lost too.
Washington is its own self feeding business. People may campaign on "fixing" it, but once they get there, they are paid by it. Lobbyists, campaign donations, dinners, private jets, pay offs, self benefiting legislation. A politician looking to end all that would be like an employee looking to put his own company out of business.
Now you are getting it. I am one of the majority of Americans that understand that our health care system is broken and that it needs to be fixed NOW. I am one of the majority of Americans that understand that the insurance industry is a major part of the "brokenness". I am one of the majority of Americans see health as a basic right (as has been the case since Thomas Jefferson) and a prerequisite for a successful democracy. I am one of the majority of Americans that resist the idea that corporate Amerika should be able to decide who recieves health care, when and at what price - all based on their (not our) self interests. I am one of the majority of Americans that understand that such abominations as "death panels" already exist - hidden in the privacy of corporate Board rooms and in the offices of accountants, adjusters and claim representatives. I am one of the majority of Americans that understands the difference between shared risk and assumed risk. And, I understand the implications of an insurance industry insider saying, "We won!" BTW, I would hope you do not manage your business and family by paying sole attention to the current #1 priority. Having worked for such people from time to time I can tell you the drama of constant crisis management is enough to drive a man to drink (or to the grave). Problems are seldom the problem. Rather, they are symptoms of things in the underlying system that need to be fixed. Thank God that there are people possessing enough vision to see this.