Professor: Muslim men can't control themselves, women must adapt

Unfortunatly all your post is talking about is "society" which has changed. The only thing that hasn't changed is the Bible.

As you quoted Mr M, in Islam the women is property. A commodity.

That will never change because it's engrained in the religion.

The "Christian nations" could evolve in their view of women because it was not a religious issue. In fact such abuse is clearly in violation of God's will. Did Christ abuse the church? Then how then can you do as Christ commands and love your wife as he loved the church and yet beat her and treat her like a slave? I recall Jesus washing other people's feat. The husband in the Biblical sense is a servant to his wife. Not a master. The husband is required to tend to all the needs of the wife and the wife is to tend to the needs of the husband. It's mutual servitude. And on top of that, Christ served the church gladly and even died for it.

With Islam, as you've proven, it's a religious issue. It's religion that prevents men from saving women in a burning house. Instead of getting rid of the rediculous religious law and saving the lives of women, they make excuses and try to make the women feel better by calling them martyrs. All this stupidity is based on religious doctrine. Not society.

Until you can prove that Mr M did not view women as property there's nothing left to argue.

You quoted Mr M yourself calling women property. Are you one of the people twisting his words?

 

No, my post confirmed your country has a problem The difference is, you would never post the stats from your country while attacking another.

 

Fresh off the press:

Disaster donations help Islamic vigilante force impose punishments on women

Sadly, there is more at the link.

In KLB's world, he would be right there to console the women, letting them know "but, but, but islam is a religion of peace and these men do not represent true islam," while others work furiously to wipe away the blood from the open sores on their backs.

 

Actually, the verse before the veil tells the believing men to guard their chastity and to lower their gaze. There are numerous other verses and Hadiths apart from that...

 

It is NOT clear from the quran that it is acceptable to beat your wife in islam,

For example, the english translation of an arabic verse of the quran has been provided as following:
". . . As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly). . ." (4:34)

The arabic word which has been translated into 'beat' is a multi meaning word in arabic, with meanings ranging from- 'to explain' to 'to strike out'. This word which has been translated into 'beat' has so many different meanings and different meanings have been ascribed to it in the quran. In one verse the same word has been translated in another verse as follows:
. . . God thus explains the truth and falsehood." (13:17)
My point is that upon encounter of a multi meaning word, the meaning is selected according to context, form and common sense
For instance, if we had have translated as "beat" instead of "explain", the meaning would be ridiculous:
. . . God thus beats the truth and falsehood." (13:17)
So how can we be sure that this word is supposed to be translated into beat?
Beating women who are cheating is not right; but "striking them out" from your house is the best solution. And it is fair too.
Thus translation of quranic verses from arabic into english do not always show the right meaning.

 

I'm afraid that nokiaking's post will fall on deaf ears, but it is an exceedingly important point about translating documents from one language to another. Regardless of how scholarly the translator is or how many collaborate on a translation there will ALWAYS be something that will be lost in translation with a document as complex as the Qur'an or Bible. Even with mundane day to day translations there are things that get lost. For instance my wife is a Russian - English translator and there are concepts that are very simple in Russian but do not exist in English. Likewise there are concepts that are very easy in English but do not exist in Russian. As a case in point, translating/interpreting real estate transactions can be a major challenge as there are many related concepts that do not exist in Russian and she must use several sentences to simply translate the meaning of a single English word related to real estate transactions.

Think about the following seemingly simple English words: day, men, beat. Even in the same sentence they could have several different meanings. For instance:

He beat the other player.​

Did "he" physically harm the other player or just win a contest? How about:

All men are created equal.​

What is meant by this phrase? Does it include or exclude women? How about:

In that day they did not have electricity.​

Are we talking about a 24 hour day or an era?

Those who believe that any document can be translated across languages and cultures without losing some of the essence or subtleties of the original (even by the most scholarly individuals), fail to understand the true nature of translations. Even the Bible has suffered terribly from being translated from one language to another down through the centuries.

 

Actually it is quite acceptable and as I pointed out earlier, clerics have actually written books on how muslim men should beat their wives.

You refer to the above as my translation. I conclude that you are referencing this post, in which Silas is noting this watered down apologist version of the quran verse.

In reality, Silas is pointing out the "Ali" translation and notes:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/wife-beating.htm

Me personally, I would not use Ali as a translation of the quran. He was an apologist, yet he still noted wife beating in islam.

The Shakir translation would probably be the most reliable:

All of them make reference to beating your wife. All five translations refer to beating your wife. Five scholars and even one of them writing as an apologist for western audiences, all point out the same thing.

Let's see what a cleric says:

http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=727

Perhaps the Arabic reading cleric just mistranslated the quran as well?

http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=588

Many others here.

Back to reality?

 

You might also be interested in this movie:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7106648073888697427&q=submission+islam&hl=en

A man was murdered for making it, by an islamist. Hyaan Hersi Ali received numerous death threats for her part in bringing the film to the world.

 

No where in the Quran does it support wife beating- translations of the Quran into another language from Arabic will give a totally different meaning, Learn Arabic and you shall see the true meaning of the quran. Not a single language can be translated fully into another language.
I do not believe in these muslim clerics or any others, in every religion there is always a handful who believe that they know more about the religion then any other living person., I only believe in the Quran, and having read it in arabic and understood it, i haven't found a single line which supports wife beating. Although i'm sure some on this forum will be quick enough to shove under my nose a translation into english showing that wife beating is allowed.


God made men and women as equal,

What about domestic violence why does that go on then? do you not go and preach the bible to these people? No muslim will get up and start the day with beating their wife black and blue.
So, back to reality, eh?

 

Yes it does, as noted above, with scriptures and reference. The translation card is a tired old tactic used by novices.

Platitudes like "handful" serve no purpose in the presense of overwhelming information that shows otherwise. Denial is obsolete.

The reality is in my last post.

 

Playing the translation game is like say that islamic martyrs get 72 virgins. They actually get 72 grapes. I wonder if they are red or white?

 

No the translation card is ignored by fanatics like yourself, who refuse to believe something which doesn't agree with you, Translating from one language to another does not guarantee the same meaning being portrayed.
Once you have read and understood the Quran in arabic then show me the refrences IN ARABIC which show that wife beating has been allowed

 

So are you saying translating from one language to another will always portray the same meaning?

And by the way the Quran never mentions 72 virgins, it mentions “chaste companions” 38:52- again difference in translation , so no grapes or virgins for you i'm afraid!

 

I've already done that. Five islamic scholars who could read/write Arabic have already done it. They all agree, in that their translations are consistent. Wife beating is encouraged in the quran. Not withstanding everything else I've posted.

The "translation card" is a novice move, especially when islamic scholars fluent with Arabic have all concluded the same.

 

Wow. And all this time I thought the crazy terrorists just pulled that one out of their butt.

Well, one less error to point out to terrorists about their beliefs.

 

Show me the evidence, Who are these five islamic scholars?
Apologies if link has already been posted, can't seem to find it!
So are you saying translation from one language to another can always be done with the meaning staying the same

 

What English translation is accurate?

Surely there's at least one translation that doesn't contain errors.

 

Yes, it was posted earlier. In fact, you took the quotes by one of them, Ali and asserted they were mine.

You are looking for this post, just above. Can I make some predictions?

1) that post doesn't prove anything
2) those are not scholars (but they are)
3) those are on an anti-islam site (that doesn't mean they aren't correct)
4) those verses are not accurate (another source. klb likes this one, except when it continues to prove him wrong.)
5) this still doesn't prove anything (denial)

That pretty much sums it up. It's amazing how people wilfully deny the obvious with so much overwhelming evidence.

 

I don't know everything about the Koran. Heck, I don't know much about at all, despite reading it from cover to cover.

I just know I saw a woman stoned to death recently at a 'metropolitan city' for being raped by her father-in-law. The crime was read out, she was dragged outside the walls, then the stoning began.

It seemed that the stones were aimed at her mid torso and legs. She was in agony for quite a while. I could see the bones protruding where broken, ripping her skin. The body was gone next day. Local dogs probably cleaned up her flesh over night.

Did I mention how they caught her? She was pregnant, and quite visibly by the time of stoning.

 

Sorry none of those assumptions are correct:
1)The post does provide the view of a so called scholar
2)Might be a scholar- i don't care, I only take the word of the Quran, not the Hadith or any scholar
3)Does it matter where they are from?
4)Again, translation....
5)Doesn't prove that the Quran in arabic is saying this
Thanks for that link, but being a fluent speaker of the arabic language and having read the quran in arabic I can honestly say i have never come across any of those quotes.
Anyway its better to commit adultery and be a muslim then to be a christian and commit adultery:
- Leviticus 20:10
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife — with the wife of his neighbor — both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

Whereas in Islam they only get whipped not even to death, Christianity is such a violent religion.........tut tut