Problems with outsourced work

Hello All: Let me start by saying that I am not a programmer. However I do run many successful online businesses where I will out source my work to folks that can provide the programming I require.

In November 2004 I awarded a contract to a company overseas (shall remain nameless). The scope of the project was clear. A benchmarked site was made available, the requested deposit (50%) was given and the programming began. This company (in writing) committed to December 21, 2004 completion date.

January and Feb fly by still with nothing usable. At this point the salesman asked me to make final payment before completing their work. Because a family member referred me to them and they came across in a way where this was holding this project up...I reluctantly agreed and final payment was made.

In April my system got hacked. So I pulled my server offline, determine how I was hacked and reinstalled OS. I say this because this company seems to think that this is a major part of the reason the programming doesn't function anymore (4 months late). I, in turn have asked them to go back to their test server and show me it works...they can't seem to get it working there either. When I try to talk to them it takes weeks to get a response...it's disgusting. I have work close with many programmers each day; I am not used to being ignored...especially when the bill is paid in full.

We all know what month and day it is today...not even close to completion. I am totally at my wits end with these people. I am a very patient man and can understand when things don't go according to plan. But I have concluded that this firm is WAY over their head on this one. Every time I get a new ‘updated’ version to test it’s worst that the one before. So we are now going backwards. As of today I’ve had it. I sent them an email message that said ‘please’ 3 times on a simple problem. So now I have to wait 1 to 2 more weeks for a simple response before they will attempt to address my issue.

At this point it’s tough for me because their bill is paid and I want out. They have wasted 6 going on 7 months of my time and I want to move on. So I am wondering if any of the programmers that hang around DP would be interested in giving me an opinion on this matter. I am a believer in starting what you finish so I may have to stay with this firm because of that. I can say that my outsourced needs are growing and I am certainly looking for help in more ways than 1. I am also friendly <grrrr>, most days easy to get along with and very clear with my needs.

If you are interested in seeing this project in its current state www . weprintcolor . com/reprotech/index.php UN: Robert Pass: shadow.

Thank you to those that take the time…you will not be forgotten.

 

I feel your pain... I have also been involved with all kind of crappy coders that just mess up things.

I guess you should just take this as a lesson and look for another good coder that can fix the mess and leave your site working. It will sure cost you more than you expected, but it will save you so much frustration and stress.

 

Ouch, that sounds like a horrible situation. I don´t quite get why you parted with the balance payment before the project was delivered but I think that was a mistake. Once they´ve had (and spent?) the money they have no incentive to finish the job.

Your customer loyalty in letting them drag on until they finish the job is very commendable but ... well, are they capable?

 

Thanks for the empathy fryman. I am trying to decide if it's better to cut my losses and move on or not. Since I am not a programmer I really don't know what's envolved to finish it. I am really hoping I can get some sense of that from a programmer that is well versed in flash, PHP and sql. I also use CMS for this system.

 

I logged into the site and most of the stuff seems to be working. Right near the end of creating a business card, the preview button generates an error (the image it creates contains errors). What is it exactly that is not working? I have some (self-taught) Php and MySql knowledge, but have never done anything in Flash.

 

That's my problem...I don't know. Sometimes people take advantage of my good nature. I made final payment because they asked and made it seem like it would hold up the job, BIG MISTAKE.
Since I made the payment NOTHING productive has been done. The good news is I made the payment on credit card so I can always attempt a chargeback. I don't like doing that either.

 

I will login and look too. I can't make promises, but if the system gives up some decent error returns, we can start to asess the situation.

If there are no useful error codes, we could add a line of code to the problem pages to force um to throw um. This would not damage the funtionality in the big picture.

 

Opps, we did this in PM, didn't we? If it's the same issue, I think we said it's client side and over my head.

Sorry.

 

Yes we did, my friend. It is on a more stable server now though.

 

I tried and the step 4 is still having issues with the sample logo list. No error, but no list and the page hangs retriving data.

 

Well there are a number of problems:

1) CMS doesn't work- when I attempt to upload logos, create categories, etc nothing happens.
2) Seems very browser dependent- Netscape, FF and explorer are all WAY different. That's to be expected I realize, but we have discussed remedying this many times in the past.
3) In IE- when pointing and clicking on text to move it, it does move, it doesn't move it sticks to the mouse sometimes only.
4) Initially the preview size was to be 550 pixels X 330 pixels. For some reason they decided to make it 1/2 that size. When you try to do a vertical size it's way too small. This is my current system running live now, note the size of preview.

There are other issue that are less significant and that's all part of beta testing, understood. My main frustration comes from TIMING. Weeks may go by now before I hear a peep from them. The other programmers I work with talk to me daily...we are always on the same page and work together to find a solution when need be. My biggest beef with these people is an old fashioned thing called SERVICE.

 

Homer,

Nice guys don´t have to finish last, buddy!.

We all live and learn. I have a client now that has the patience of a saint. He has a great sense of humour which is always nice and has never once hassled me about his site though I too am months late.

I work alone and had a terrible start to the year - sick kids, apartment flooded (yes, in Tenerife), sick rellies in another country, you name it, it happened to me this year.

On top of that I made a huge mistake when quoting for the site. I didn´t look into how big the job actually was and undercharged by about 3 times on a guesstimate. What an idiot! It will take me until Doomsday to finish this site because it is all html -no cms - and my next payment from the client won´t arrive until it is hosted.

(Add to that my previous frustration over ex-designers holding onto the reg of their client domain...).

Anyway, as you can imagine, when I am tied up with this nightmare, I am not taking on other jobs or even working on the revenue streams of my own site. I am skint. Stoney broke, borassic lint, skint!

I asked my client if he would mind paying me an installment - and believe me I felt like hell having to do that. Guess what? He declined.

I don´t blame him. If I was in his shoes - and especially in the bad old days when I was employed and in corporate shoes - I would have refused too.

But you know what? I don´t mind. I am going to give the client the best I can anyway. It is my own dumb fault that I underestimatedthe size of the job and it certainly isn´t the clients fault that the start to my year has been such a nightmare.

What a long blathery post ! My point is - yes, be a nice guy, but stick to your guns too. I don´t think anyone - even your programmers, would have been surprised or offended if you had said that the balance would be paid on completion.

 

I too can get behind. It's tough. However, the reason can be obvious if we look within.

Joe will often point out I can't write code if I'm posting at digital point chatting. He also asks how many backlinks I could have created in that time too.

 

LOL e10, sorry for that but your choice of words are priceless sometimes. Beleive me when I say I understand your feelings about cutting yourself short. It really is a very cut throat sometimes. I have been in the same situation countless times. If you would like me to PM you the proposal I received from them I will...VERY professional and definative. It really gave me that warm and fuzzy feeling...know what I mean?

When I got the first draft from them is was SO far off the mark I couldn't beleive it. We did have a benchmarked site and the funtions of this site were supposed to be duplicated. They asked for MORE money to do this, when it was clear as day to begin with...I AGREED

As far as the amount they quoted, trust me there was no mistake made. So that is NOT the case here.

I think you hit the nail right on head there.

I can say that what work is done is good and I am pleased with the look and feel. There is simply no urgency to complete it...that makes me sad

 

I can tell you looking at the generated HTML that it doesn't look good:

* They use deprecated HTML (e.g. bgcolor in every table cell; no DOCTYPE; etc)

* Their security practices are questionable - if you submit the edit-member.php form with a quote in one of the parameters (e.g. txtfname='some-name) it gets encoded as if it's a JS/PHP string, while it's not (txtfname=\'some-name), introducing incorrect character sequences into the generated HTML

* they seem to rely on client-side validation - I was able to get to edit-member by going directly to the form action page (same with the contactus.php form)

I liked the layout though - looks neat and professional (well, except for this blinking Get Started graphics - I find it quite annoying).

It is somewhat expected that development will take about 25% longer than it was quoted - quite often quoting shorter development time is used to beat the competition and get the project. Of course, much depends on whether initial specifications keep changing - if this is out of control, dates may slip by much more than 25%.

So, anyway, I'm not sure what kind of a workforce you hired there, but 6 months seems like a very long time for a website like this. Consdering that it isn't even completed now, I would look carefully at the contract and try to find a way to get your money back (or at least some of it, if you decide to keep the site).

J.D.

[edit]: ...just thought of probably one of the most delayed software projects - Bungie's Halo for XBox took a couple of years longer than anticipated, but still turned out to be a heck of a game. So, really it all depends on what you get at the end

 

Thanks alot for your time J.D. I can see that you have taken some time in the eye of the programmer. Please bear with me here because I am not a coder. If I may ask a few questions in response to your comments...

What are you suggesting? The 'security practices' specifically. Are you saying that I that I am vonurable to get hacked or user's input data may get misinterpretted?

I totally agree with you there, that's an easy fix.

I can tell your comments come from experience . The programmers that I work with rarely meet deadlines and, yes, I am rarely a perfect angel . But the difference is I know where we are at...the communication line is opened and I am aware and accept the reasons for delay on both sides. Radio silence is what bothers me . Having to beg and plead, when a project is this delayed to this extent just for updates.

I have, and legal action is an option, but I really want this completed...I don't have time for that sht. I am now, first and foremost, trying to find a way to bring this to a polished finish as I like what has been done so far. So before I pull any plug I need to look for a programmer that is comfortable with this project given the circumstances.

J.D. is this the type of project that you would be comfortable with?

 

All of the user input must be validated by the server (as a convenience, it may be validated on the client side, just to avoid an extra request, but then the input *must* be validated by the server) and encoded properly (e.g. in HTML all <'s must be output as &lt in HTML, etc) if echoed back to the client.

The reason I said that their practices are questionable is because they encoded test'text as text\'text in HTML, which produces an incorrect URL link - it appears to me that they didn't know what they were doing in this particular case. Hence, my comment. The current code doesn't echo back the input, so it's hard to verify whether they do the right encoding job.

So, no, I have no evidence that you are vulnerable, but if I were you, I would do a security audit before signing off on the project.

I agree that this is unacceptable. If the deadline is slipping, you should and even must know why. Then you can decide whether this is something that you can live with or not.

It would probably cost you less to let them finish the project (if they are capable of doing this) and then have someone to do a security audit for you and may be do other minor adjustments. On the other hand, if they can't finish it on time, you probably have better chances of getting your money back (I'm just thinking out loud - you need to talk to your lawyer about this).

You can PM me, if you'd like, so we can talk about what's done and what needs to be done.

J.D.

 

J.D., thanks for your thorough attention. Your honesty was what I was afraid of

and besides the bill is paid.

I am going think about your valuable comments/ assessment and any others that are kindly offered here. I am not sure how much longer I can go on like this though.

Have you been involved in any projects similar to this? If so can I see?


Cheers

 

Not that I can show, but there're plenty of talented folks around here that can I can do a security audit for you, if you decide to get one once you have the website.

J.D.