It's great to see AGS declaring "spin" when in fact all the GTech posted to you was facts. You did support Iran when those seamen were held hostage & worried about Iran being attacked. You were showing your love for hamas only a few days ago. And did claim the government did those attacks on their own country what's the wording you used, oh yea "flase flag" Your in love with Bush but it must be a love hate relationship as you mention this guy 24/7 when threads are not even about him.
What on earth are you doing chillum? That's not harsh language, oh and I love the way you snip certain bits would you like a job at FOCKS? Do a thread on me but please do not make it a personal attack, or I'll have that reported before GTech can give his lover Bush a reach-around. I could easily make a thread about you clowns but if I did it would be removed and you would report it of that I have no doubt, so be careful about personal attacks eh mate. Just a friendly heads-up for you. You say that GTech and yourself are tired of discussing the same things with me in this P&R, that is no surprise as we disagree on pretty much everything, that is the beauty of this P&R forum, everyone is entitled to their own views. You love George Bush, I cannot stand the terrorist motherfucker. But that is my own personal opinion. Grow up dude.
Uh oh, AGS is upset that his "thinker" was mentioned again. No mistaking about how he feels about Bush or Cheney or Haliburton or O'Reilly or anyone opposed to terrorists. If only he had the same words about those who attacked his country this past week. But alas, he was only outraged at the media and PM Brown. Not a peep otherwise.
Lame GTech. Two of them mentioned in your post are terrorists, the other makes millions of dollars from the actions of the two terrorists you mentioned and the other supports the two terrorists you mentioned via FOCKS News. Nice post GTech.
Now he's breaking out Bush as his shield again. Never a bad word for real terrorists though. Not even a peep. Next it will be O'Reilly, followed by the obligatory "brainwash by the mainstream media." In 5, 4, 3, 2 ...
See, GTech, now that GAGS knows you expect a reply, he wouldn't just post here to fit right into your script, unfortunately... he's so predictable when you don't post your predictions!
I support them financially to a small degree, under threat of violence. I worked out a solution to reduce this support to insignificant levels, without going the Ed Brown way. Other than that I don't. It's not because they don't die as much as your adversary, it's because they kill more
Remind us who is doing the killing, demosfen? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6279864.stm Surely you don't think the US troops drove this truck into a market and blew up 100 people do you?
Chulium, your reaction is very interesting. You took my criticism as an offense, very close to a redneck reaction . Take it cool, man. Dont show your weakness this way. I was not talking about soviet government, I was talking about ordinary citizens, who pulled themselves together to protect their soil. And they did not start the cold war, USA did. I also dont want back the Soviet Russia, but nowadays they seem to be ok. And I'm glad Russia is raising in power - two big powers mean peace, that was always that way... I think of them as people, not cannon fodder, that's the difference between me and you. Sounds like a weak reaction of a teen... Again, i was talking about citizens, not governments. And you are talking about post-WWII situation which is not relevant to my post. But the ordinary citizens were fighting against Nazi's forgetting if they are conservatives or liberals, or anything else. Of cause you dont, brainwashed one. What kind of freedom are you talking about? Freedom to invade another country? Freedom to carry fire arms? I think we lost the correct idea of Freedom long time ago... Remember what the Constitution says? "No American soldier should be present in foreign home in the time of peace", or something like that, which means we should keep peace, not start a war. Soldiers are not fighting for our Freedom in Iraq, they are fighting for someones money, greed and struggle for the power. I dont feel any change in my life, except I see my neighbors crying for their lost relatives, and veterans being left behind by their own government with small pension without any help. If someone actually invades my country, I'll join Army as volunteer, because my wife and my kids, as well as kids of my friends and other people, will need my protection; but fighting for someone's money - stupid. Read the books about greatest war generals - they dont mind to withdraw if it means to save troop's lives, if the battle is aimless. Those who's gone, they are gone, time to take care who is still living. Yes, their lives are very important. Why not save them by closing the aimless war? Besides, 68% of the budget is too much; the medicare and education systems were basically left without any financing. This sentence does not make much sense... What terrorists? Iraques are not terrorists. We have more domestic terrorists then the whole middle east. And our domestic terrorists are not even islamists in their majority, but you will be amazed that the majority of domestic terrorist acts are performed by quite conservative group... Education system in US (as well as HealthCare system) is the worst in the Commonwealth. Kids in USA have less skills then in Europe. Why not? We are paying enough taxes to be treated well by our government, otherwise the government is a rudimentary thing and should be chopped off, if it does not deliver the promise. If the purpose of the government is to make more money for corporations, and badly shake the world, why do we need such government? I'm not a communist, nor share their ideas. I'm an ordinary citizen who wants a government who cares about me as the citizen, stable healthcare system, so if I'm sick, I will not be dropped by my insurance company in the middle of a treatment, so they can save money, etc. Why every time when someone speaks about simple things like education, healthcare and peace automatically called 'communist'?! Communists are those who live in communities by strict rules, like Amish people. I dont want that. People are so scared about proper education, affordable healthcare, so they want to stay away from it because they can be called a communist.. BOO! COMMUNIST! BAD BAD BOY! At the same time, we are in good shape with China... I dont care if you call me a communist, I just dont give a heck about it. But trust me, if you (god forbid!!!) get a cancer and will be dropped by your insurance company during chemical therapy, thus living you dying and with $2,000,000 in debt; and medicare does not accept you because you are not qualifying - you did well in your salary last year, and they dont have enough budget to accept people with $30,000+ annual salaries. Then kiss your ass good bye and thank those who cut the budget on medicare because they want bigger ROI on oil from Iraq.
I wrote a heck of a lot more than just the part you quoted in reply to your post. Care to address some other issues I brought up in my reply to your post? Instead of just one? Besides, the ones that are doing the killing are the Iraqis, extremists or not; their bombs blow up dozens of their own citizens; they're blowing THEMSELVES up. Now then, to tackle tau's post. What weakness? As I said, the millions who DID pull together only did under "do it or die" orders from Stalin. We told Russia not to deploy nuclear weapons. They did. Thus it started. We deployed some to Turkey and they deployed some to Cuba. Finally it ended in the 90's. Sort of. But that's not the issue here. I guess Putin - who just took away the majority of freedom of press in his country and threatens to take away more freedoms and build arms faster and deploy more weapons - is doing NOTHING like Stalin or Lenin. Thank goodness we're safe. You're assuming I think of them as cannon fodder. You're utterly wrong. Sounds like the truth. When you say "Europe" you imply governments. And I find it interesting that you think I'm brainwashed whereas those millions of Nazi supporters in WW2 did what I am doing today except for freedom. Hm. I guess you must define "Brainwashed" as "having an opinion." How is Russia's retreat policy only POST-ww2? How is the invasion of France only POST-ww2? How is Nazi germany only POST-ww2? You don't make any sense Go back and read your history books. True. Except for the Germans, in most cases. Jews were really the only ones that resisted. If all the others did, as your post implies, the Nazis could have been over-run before they got that powerful. Define "brainwashed" - as I stated previously, I believe you mean it to say "opinionated," which everyone is. (Read up on my post where I talk about this earlier.) Freedom of SPEECH. DUH...! Hence, "Freedom to SAY ..." Also, Freedom to one's BELIEFS and DISSENT and PROTESTING. There are some things that simply should not be protested, and supporting our soldiers' lives is one of them. Where are you getting THIS from? Did you even read: "Freedom to SAY..." That's not the issue here, and NO, that's not the freedom I meant, either. I think you just lost your marbles... recently... or was it because your parents dropped you? Apparently better than you: Section 10 clause 3: "No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay." Is that what you meant? You said that we lost the "correct" idea of freedom a long time ago. I think YOU yourself even FORGOT that we didn't start this war. I've been to the war's starting place, and it's a sad, sad tale there, when they killed almost three thousand American citizens and brave firefighters and policemen alike... because of their sacrifice, people like you completely forget what we're fighting for now. Liberals upset me for this reason. You think lives are "precious" yet you forget about the ones that died to protect your lame blindness. You're wrong again. They are fighting for the Freedom to live our lives without being oppressed by the threats of terrorism. Freedom isn't free; it's worth fighting for. Freedom also isn't contagious; while we destroy the threat, we need to install freedom, or the corruption creeps right back in. It's like an anti-biotic. You take it for a while, feel better, then stop, but the bacteria come back and are immune to the antibodies. You feel sick again and start taking your medicine, but by then it's too late; they're immune, and it's a much longer recovery, if any. That's very very very sad, indeed. Grief is a part of war. Grief of war comes with honor and valor. They are also proud of their relatives, or should be. (If they're not, then that's just sick.) YET AGAIN another liberal expects the government to do everything for them! Look buddy, if you love Russia so much, and want a communist society, then MOVE THERE! Geez. My point is, YOU can help. Don't just sit on your fat rump and type all day. At least do something to contribute. Well we all know that this war was just about Bush's salary... Part two coming up! And tau, I expect you to respond to everything I've stated here. There's no reason you should have no reply to any of this.
PART TWO. Retreating from A battle is different from SURRENDERING a war. Ah, your true colors fly: "Well, they're dead. What a shame, time to move on and make the LIVING troops feel like idiots, too, by pulling them out of a war they died for!" Yeah, you love our troops. Wait a minute, I'm confused. Just before that, you said, "Those who's gone, they are gone, time to take care who is still living.".... stop trying to play to roles, tau, you are making yourself look like a hypocrite. Work harder! Millions on welfare are depending on YOU! Well, I guess welfare is worth it to sacrifice a few of our soldier's guns and helmets... they can use rocks and leafs, right? Your spelling doesn't make much sense either. Iraqi CITIZENS are not the terrorists, but the many Muslim EXTREMISTS are the terrorists, and we need to stop their operations and scatter the organized ones. Source? For conservatives, every day is July 4. For liberals, every day is April 15. Stop worrying about taxes... you said yourself that most of our budget is going to the armed forces; so most of what you are paying isn't going to be "returned" to you in services and things like that. You'll have to do some things yourself, I'm afraid. I guess we wouldn't. Good thing that's not the purpose of government! But... then... why do you expect the government to do everything for you? And don't even try to say you don't; I've already proved that you do. If you didn't then you wouldn't have written an entire paragraph of rebuttal. Your last one doesn't even make sense. Again, I'll expect a reply to everything I've said here; for there's no reason there shouldn't be a reply for everything I've said under the quote tags. Refusing to reply will admit a defeat in that area of the debate. (And this from a guy with a few years of experience on the local debate team - best on this side of the state... which is why I tend to make this competitive. Heh)
That's not true. They were going to defend their motherland. I've read a lot of books written by soldiers of Red Army. Their slogan was "For the Motherland", not "for the Stalin". Behind the fronts they were working double shifts to support the troops defending the country. And it's in their own words. The Stalin's regime was cruel indeed. Stalin killed the best commanding officers with the experience of the WWI, the army did not have enough ammo and ammunition, but they were smart to defeat the enemy with what they had, no showers, no fresh water, not enough food. Without those experienced officers (who actually were against the Stalin regime), the Red Army became headless. It took them about a year to replace the commanding officers with new battle-proof staff. That's the main reason why Nazis advanced so deep into territory. The ordinary citizens became partisans to fight the enemy from behind and weaken their supplies. Now, tell me - if they were forced by Stalin, how could they operate without his reach behind the enemy line? That' a very good read about the real patriotism of russian people: http://www.brest.by/ct/page3e.html Kind of Alamo... Russia told us not to deploy nuclear weapons. We did not listen, and even worse, we nuked two cities - how nice of us. So, both parties are guilty. So, you are taking freedom from others to have your own freedom. Quite selfish, you know.... What are you talking about? What retreat policy? What invasion of France? By whom? I'm sorry, but I cannot see any sense in your sentence. The european governments were really divided those time, a lot of european governments supported Hitler for one or another reason, Jews were hunted due to the Hitler crazy ideas, Jews did not resisted, they were running for lives. The only country that really resisted Nazis was Russia, then Britain and Russia started to organize spy and partisan groups in the occupied Europe to prepare to the counter-attacks. When the resistance kicked in, a lot of civilians joined the Liberation movements. Good for you. However, you dont need to kill people just if you dont agree with them, or want your own opinion to be heard... Or, listen to this: "Our troops are fighting in Iraq for the freedom of speech"... What speech? Whose speech? "American soldier killed 100 Iraqis, so the rest of Iraqis could have the freedom of speech"... Nice purpose of the invasion. Yes, thanks for pulling it out. So, what state was invaded, so we keep troops in Iraq, sir? Dont tell me about 9/11 here. Well, I dont remember any connection between Iraq and non-existent Bin Laden... And I dont actually think there is a link between 9/11 and Iraq., except what Bush administration tried to say by manipulating the intel reports. Imagine you are on the battlefield. you are in front of two bodies: one is dead (your friend) and another badly wounded (not your friend, you hate him, but he has a chance to survive). According to your philosophy you would pull out the body of your dead friend, so his relatives can bury him and cry over him, so you can say that you fulfilled your duty of a friend and brother in arms. According my philosophy, you would pull the wounded guy even if you hate him. That's your conservatism and my independence. You are funny. I'm just expecting from the government to do its real job, nothing else.I dont want a communist society, but I like the culture and history of Russia. You probably like another foreign country, and it's fine. Oh, I do help. I help kids to get better education. I meet with the victims of war and health insurance companies to defend their rights against the government and corporations. I'm working with the group of nurses to kick off the Universal Healthcare system in my state, so people will not be dropped off their insurances. I save more lives then you kill. And I'm not gonna help to kill more. If the troops are pooled from Iraq - it's not a surrender, it's a wise withdraw. What is the purpose to keep them there? There is no final goal to be achieved there. Tell me one goal that really worth to fight against (let's not talk about freedom of speech ) What cant you understand? That I value lives more then deaths? That I tend to worry about live people and their health more, then about the dead ones (Besides, as the pirate said, "Dead people dont bite.")? You can honor the fallen, but you must take care of living. Caring about them just by sending them more ammunition so they can die a little bit later is a bad joke. "Here is your bazooka, son. Take it easy while I fly back to DC and have a party on a villa with 5 ladies. Dont cry soldier, that's your job. Die like a hero defending this building, even who knows why you should do it, and we put some flowers on your grave with the folded flag, so your mom will be proud about ya. Ok, bye." The problem of welfare has nothing to do with the current war besides that the budget money were pulled out from the educational system, so poor folks cannot afford to go to college and actually find a better job and make more money. When they dont have proper education, they cannot find good paid jobs, so they fall back on welfare. If you cut the military expense for the name of our kids and educate those, less people will use welfare; but our government likes the idea that free college education is only through the Army service, and the rest of population should be uneducated (USA has the least number of educated people in the developed world), thus it's easy to manipulate the masses as they can be scared by things they dont comprehend. Work harder wont help either if you are disabled, did you think about such thing? You are so naive in your bravery, but I saw hard-core conservatives change their mind and cry about their current situation on the hospital bed just because they are in debt and disabled, and cannot afford to work harder, and they are not eligible for medicare, and they are dumped by insurance company because they are not a money cow anymore but a money sucker. Now they are all for the budget adjustment and the better health system. They dont shout "Work harder, suckers" anymore... For you the sources about US domestic terrorism: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-11-14-domestic-terrorism_x.htm http://wot-on-earth.blogspot.com/2006/10/who-commits-terrorism-in-u_116025179573950787.html About forgotten vets: http://www.pej.org/html/modules.php...=article&sid=2322&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0 Right, just because I dont trust my government, I invest in my retirement savings, because I'm sure that in 30 years, I wont see my social security due to the USA's debt after this war. The current debt is so huge, it will take us about 20 years just to recover... and the things will get worse, I'm sure. And you troops when they return home disabled, and forgotten, wont have any social security pension either... you wont care about them because the have been used, now useless, and not fighting for the freedom, which nobody can define nowadays. Well, that's what our government is doing now... Not everything, just the things it should do: the servant of the people by identifying and implementing strategies to achieve public purposes at a cost that is no higher than necessary (What government does for one it should do for all; What government does not do for all it should do for none). We forgot that we are not serving our government, but the government serves us, that's the idea embedded in the Constitution. The public services like affordable healthcare and education, etc. - that's the purpose of the government. Not to invade other countries. If someone invades us, then we should use Section 10 clause 3. It will if you will be in a situation described there.
In addition to the paragraph about WWII and Russia. If I imagine Iraq invading us, I just dont think Snoop Dog will become a partisan to defend his country, but he will create a dope empire to deliver drugs to the both parties
Tau bravo. No wmd's found and everyone in the middle east who has a shred of knowledge about this knows that saddam and osama hookin is hillarious. 2 completely opposing beliefs.Yes of course we can trust a few shreds of facts given to us by our government that turned out not to be true, I wonder why they didnt admit to their covert operations in iran to dethroan mossadegh and bring chaos into iran until maybe 20 years later. Oh yea this is how u build trust with your people
I've corrected you on this dozens of times. *some* wmd were found in Iraq. There were ties between saddam and bin laden. If I recall correctly, last time you quickly tried to backpedal on this and assert the notion there was no evidence that saddam was involved in 9/11. But then no one has asserted such. I'm not sure what drives your intellectual dishonesty on these two points. You always seem like a nice person. I often wonder whether people really remember why we went to Iraq. Which one of those do you think was the hardest for saddam to give up?
Alrighty tau, I'm done going easy on you. ...yeah... but they had no choice, whether they went to defend their motherland or not. I'm not saying ALL were unwilling, but I bet many of them didn't support Stalin. Stalin made their slogan, not the people. The people had little/no freedom! How do you not get this?? Not literally, physically FORCED by Stalin - of course he could not be there; they took his orders, and they were to kill any soldier that didn't fight or tried to retreat (one in the same). Russia did not know we were that close to nuclear weapons; they didn't even know how to build them when we did, obviously. Yes, we bombed two cities, but it was the lesser of many evils. I'm not taking freedom from anyone. *gawks in utter amazement at your lack of knowledge* -- haven't you ever heard of D-DAY? NORMANDY? The Invasion of France! Retreat policy ... the Soviet's retreat policy during WW2 was you would be SHOT if you ran away during a battle or from a war. I've already said this! How can you be so BLIND! You're just making yourself look stupid. As usual. They did both, in that sense. Running is a form of resistance. Running slowed down the process, which is a form of resistance. The Soviets LIKED the Nazis until Germany invaded Russia. That's the only reason Russia turned on them. And I'm not killing people. What's your point. That's ONE of the many reasons they are fighting, yes. Don't make this one exclusive, though. You're missing the big picture. ... which... seems to be quite trendy with you lately. Now look tau, if you want to push forward a point, you need to stop being an IGNORANT LIBERAL. I'm GOING to tell you about 9/11 here. You're just trying to push it out of the picture and FORGET IT. WHAT respect for the people's lives do you have? Huh?? WHY do you refuse to accept that on 9/11, thousands of Americans died and now YOU are forgetting about them? Not only that, but TRYING to influence those who DO respect them to not even bring up the topic. I'm disgusted by your intentions, yet again. How can you even call yourself an American... You know both answers to your ludicrous question. Admit it. We were invaded. We were attacked. I'm not even going to BOTHER discussing your conspiracy theories on the matter. It would be a disgrace, but if you bring it up, I would be forced to defend the honor of my country, unlike YOU who sits there and tears it down. Oho... you are such a lost, confused person.... Osama bin Laden declared WAR on the United States of America in 1997 during Clinton's presidency (Clinton ignored it, and look what happened 4 years later). How do you explain THAT with your conspiracy theory? 9/11 and Iraq are connected in a way; one being that Iraq was a terrorist breeding ground being endorsed by its evil dictator, Saddam Hussein, who, by the way, built factories to manufacture WMDs and biologically bombed his own people and threatened to deploy and use WMDs against our allies or us similarly to what N. Korea is doing/did, not to mention Iran. Luckily, we got to Iraq and displaced their military before they were operational. According to military conduct code, (marines in particular), you save the wounded and after the battle's end, or when it's safe for at least a moment, you go and retrieve the bodies of soldiers who died to save you - your comrades. However, being ON the battlefield IN a battle is a much different context from being in our homeland TRYING to get people to support our troops. There's a BIG difference there. If you believe its job is to do everything for you and for the dying children in Darfur, then be my guest and move to China or Russia. They could use another person like you. Actually, on second though, move to N. Korea, then they won't let you leave again (probably). First, how many lives have I killed? Your devotion is admirable, and saving lives is good. Nurses and doctors save more lives than me too, but I think that there's more than those ways to save lives. The enemy - the terrorists - want us to leave. How is doing what they want so they can gain power NOT surrendering to them? Answer me that. Okay, then I'll say these instead: Freedom. Freedom from tyranny. Freedom from global terror threats. Freedom from living in fear. THAT'S what we're fighting for. You say you love the soldiers that died for us, (or at least imply it), but you here say that we need to forget them and move on practically. Of course we need to value those still living: but I think a DIFFERENT honor of EQUAL value needs to be placed on those that HAVE DIED for us. ...*sighs* I have some chores to tend to here at the home and an office to clean. I didn't finish responding to all your post yet, but I would like to later. IN THE MEAN TIME, why don't you go back and answer the questions that you missed, and respond to some other points I've made? I specifically asked you not to neglect anything I said. Thanks
Interesting, I haven't seen any other paypal transaction IDs. I know why chilium cannot, and Lorien has donated graciously in the past. I wonder who came in to take the thread off topic of supporting the troops to "blame America first?" Was that you, tau?
Yes, because those tiny amounts of wmd were sold to Saddam by the USA government... We make a joke of ourselves, or maybe bush administration is just makes us idiots...
So, no any other argument, and Tau should be blamed? I was strictly on topic all the time - there was a question if you support the troops and why, so I gave my opinion, that is.
GTech is still clinging onto the dream that there were WMD's. There were none and because of that massive lie thousands upon thousands of innocent Iraqis have died, and GTech does not care because he loves the miserable failure George W Bush more than life itself.