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PHP 7.0 What? & When is production?

Discussion in 'PHP' started by dmvictoria, Nov 29, 2015.

  1. D3Tek

    D3Tek Active Member

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    #21
    I went live with PHP7 on one of my minor servers, after using extensively with Vagrant and of course, Homestead (since they released a box with PHP7). Vagrant/Homestead, was just Laravel development. You don't really get to see the speed improvements until you go live on a production server, but Laravel is insane with PHP7. It's so damn quick and so much less resource-intensive.

    However...
    SEMrush
    On my production server, I have a Magento site. Not mine, a clients. (ugh, Magento). Magento does not like PHP7 at all, I fixed most of the errors and now have to wait for any more to pop up. Luckily it was by request of my client that I get PHP7, despite my warnings to not upgrade because Magento does not have PHP7 support yet!
     
    D3Tek, Dec 21, 2015 IP
    SEMrush
  2. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #22
    Things I would NEVER say about Laravel, or any other framework asshattery... YMMV.

    Sadly a LOT of off the shelf software has basically been shlepping along with PHP 4.x code and flipping the bird at good practices... see how many such things haven't even moved off of mysql_ yet, much less stop using all the deprecated redundancies or pulling stunts like disabling error/warning reporting instead of fixing the code.

    I see one more PHP file doped to the gills with @ signs I'm gonna puke.
     
    deathshadow, Dec 21, 2015 IP
  3. D3Tek

    D3Tek Active Member

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    #23
    Laravel is too good not to use. What's the point in re-inventing the wheel when you have something so power readily available? Of course, creating something bespoke is always an option only when the client can afford to do so!

    Also, agree with you on error suppression. NO NO NO.
     
    D3Tek, Dec 21, 2015 IP
  4. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #24
    Agreed. I use to boy cot bloated fat frameworks of "crap code" until I realized that they aren't all bloated and crap code. While "rolling" your own *may* seem like a great idea especially for performance you spend all too much time making the tool box rather than picking up the hammer and going to work. I'm a huge advocate of structure. If it's just you working on the project then who cares what you use. If all you have is time then who cares how much time you waste. But if you work in a collaborative environment or if your time is precious and must be devoted to the development of your project and not the internal library then a framework is beautiful.

    The company I work for uses a makeshift "framework" that was created specifically for our project. The problem is we have hundreds of employees and each person has a mind of their own. Over the years we've had developers come and go and the direction of our custom framework started to lack standards and structure. Now we have spaghetti code and tons of work arounds and every day there are system issues and bugs. All of this could have been avoided by using a system that provided the structure for us so that anyone could take over and produce the same end result. We are at the point where a rewrite is required and it could cost us millions with time, personal, and the possibility of losing existing clients and/or sacrificing the support for our current platform.

    Again.. I'm a HUGE advocate of frameworks for structure. As for performance, whether you use a framework or not you may not see a noticable difference in speed. Most of the Performance Comparisons are based off of unlikely scenarios of simple scripts running "hello world" outputs or pointless loops. Either way, there are caching and adjustments you can make to have your framework based application run just as fast if not faster than the system you rolled. Plus I love the idea of having dozens of contributors looking out for the best interest of my internals freeing up my time to focus on my project.

    It is absolutely a great idea to use a framework for your project. If a developer suggests differently than he is usually VERY VERY VERY stubborn and thinks his way is the best or only way, or is ignorant believing he loses pride by using someone elses code. That to me, is a horrible developer. While we all love to believe we are the most intelligent out there a single intelligent person will never be smarter than the collaboration of minds of other intelligent people.

    Let's not turn this in to a debate on whether or not we should use a framework. This thread is about PHP7. I'm glad to hear Laravel was able to benefit from the new release. =)
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2015
    NetStar, Dec 21, 2015 IP
    ThePHPMaster likes this.
  5. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #25
    Whereas every time I look at it I go "why the *** are you making developers work harder?" -- but then knowing what MVC is for, and how PHP works, and coming from other programming languages, MVC is PHP just sets off my bullshit alarm since PHP isn't an event driven environment.

    Simply put, all those frameworks don't work how I think, I end up screaming at the display and wonder just what the hell level of brainwashing it takes to see anything resembling an advantage in their use.

    I look at Laravel, and it's like I've got the glasses from "They Live" on.

    I simply don't get how adding some bloated framework that replicates existing functionality that you have to take extra time to learn, to end up writing more code than you'd have without it, is magically "easier" -- that's gotta be some really good kool-aid to the point Jim Jones and Joseph Goebbels would have to stand in rock-star awe of it.
     
    deathshadow, Dec 21, 2015 IP
  6. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #26

    With all seriousness... Take a couple steps from your super high tech 'know it all that is best' personna and work on a project using a Framework for fun. My thought process was just like yours until I tried it. I see your valid points but I also see the benefit in using frameworks regardless of PHP's "mock-event driven" strucutre for the framework.

    I recall a post from you a while ago where you specifically stated you never worked with Laravel or knew anything about it then not even 20 minutes later you were in another thread talking about how much boat it has and how crappy it is. I think it's safe to say you haven't used it or know anything about the design of the library. With that said... don't be stubborn. Open yourself up to the possibilities of it and try it. You may not like it at all....but surely you will see the value in why someone will use it.
     
    NetStar, Dec 21, 2015 IP
  7. PoPSiCLe

    PoPSiCLe Illustrious Member

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    #27
    But, why do anyone use frameworks? I'm just wondering. When I've looked at them, I mostly think "oh, well that's neat" until I figure out what lies beneath that neat functionality, or I come to my senses and just go... "but, this function/class does SO MANY THINGS I don't need, why not just create something neater and use that".

    I realise that modern frameworks often lets you utilize only the things you do use/need, but I can't for the life of me understand why you'd want another abstraction-layer on top of the regular code, another layer which you then have to learn to use properly. To me, that builds the learning curve, instead of utilizing knowledge persons already have. (Granted, if everyone involved already know the framework in question, that's not a problem, but say that everyone doesn't know it).
     
    PoPSiCLe, Dec 21, 2015 IP
  8. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #28
    Fun and frameworks in the same sentence -- funny guy. My experiences with them can be described as ANYTHING but fun. They shove crappy code down your throat, double the memory footprint of even the simplest of tasks, and quite often try ridiculously hard to shoe-horn theoretical programming concepts meant for entirely different languages into PHP where they just don't make sense. See the bloated absurd asshattery of shoving MVC into a non event driven non server-client (where the server is what the USER is on and the client is where the software is running) environment.
    My thought process was just like yours until I tried it. I see your valid points but I also see the benefit in using frameworks regardless of PHP's "mock-event driven" strucutre for the framework.

    Same thread I believe, and that's because I looked it up, looked at their site to see what they vomit up for a front end, looked at what was involved in installing it, grabbed a copy and did an evaluation -- none of which was particularly encouraging.

    When I can't even get past the UI on the site for it, find the tutorials and docs to be more soft sell than useful information brimming with marketspeak, it sets off my scammy sense.

    But then you can alienate me just by using artsy fartsy terms like Artisan, having illegible colour contrasts, absurdly undersized fixed metric fonts sneding me diving for the zoom, and wasting massive amounts of whitespace to cover up for a lack of meaningful content. Their website ALONE would have made me bounce before even digging deeper if someone hadn't said "you have to try it"

    ... and after looking at it, I see all the same bloat, failings and idiocy I see in codeignitor, jquery, bootcrap, etc, etc.

    Hell, when they suggest installing an entire blasted pre-built Ubuntu install as your starting point, and if you decide to try and integrate it into an existing setup having to sue some rubbish third party installer (because PHP doesn't have enough of those) there's something wrong with it... and that's before you get into asshattery of throwing "objects at everything" like a Java fanboy with bloated time wasting nonsense like "routes", "responders", and other programming methodologies DESIGNED to give garbage collection a conniption fit. It's like it was written by someone who took the top five theoretical "user crap" college texts and took the worst practices from it and turned it into a system.

    JUST looking at the documentation makes me go "why the **** would you use this?!?" Makes less sense than faith and creationism.

    I think I've been at this too long -- I see so many of the same mistakes and nonsense repeated -- a LOT of things like MVC and frameworks reminds me of the asshat rubbish people did in DiBol, COBOL or Fortran back when developers were paid by the k-loc. I'll never understand how writing twice as much code that then relies on some massive library or framework is "easier" or "better" than just sitting down and using the language itself -- and if you can't do it with the language itself in less time and less effort, there's either something wrong with the language or one's understanding of it.

    ... and again, I'm waiting for someone to show me something that's worth a damn done with it; just like with bootcrap. USUALLY (actually, pretty much every time) I say that, the best response anyone can come up with is "la la la la" like a second rate Vancome lady; assuming it doesn't shut them up altogether.

    To put it simply, I'd sooner hand assemble 8k of Z80 machine language, than deal with these frameworks... ANY of them. They simply don't work how I think or line up at all with my 38+ years experience in programming. They are LAUNDRY lists of how NOT to write clean, simple or effective code.
     
    deathshadow, Dec 21, 2015 IP
  9. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #29
    EXACTLY! ... particularly when it replicates EXISTING functionality. See template "frameworks" like the outright idiotic bullshit known as "Smarty" that just make me want to track down whoever made it and punch them in the face.

    PHP itself is an over the top abstraction -- running MORE abstractions on top of it? Plow that type of thinking. The ONLY way I could see people seeing anything resembling advantages to their use is that they never learned how to program correctly.

    Though looking at the markup vomited up by the fools who use these types of things... well, let's just call it confirmation of that suspicion. HTML has rules, CSS has rules, accessibility guidelines exist, and PHP already has a ridiculously robust and oversized library.... and to be frank every "framework" I've seen be it PHP, HTML, CSS or JavaScript comes across more as outright ignorance of those rules and guidelines, or just flipping a double bird at it because "wah wah wah, I don't wanna learn the ACTUAL language" typical of the TLDR twitter headed generation cry-baby mouth-breathers.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2015
    deathshadow, Dec 21, 2015 IP
  10. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #30
    The point was to try the PHP framework... not go to the web site and pick apart their HTML and CSS of their home page. But hey that's the problem with the internet...we have a bunch of twats adding their $.02 on products they have never used or know anything about.

    If I owned my own software company I would never hire someone like deathshadow. He would sit in on a round table discussion and disagree with everything until his opinion is perceived as fact. Projects that were projected to take 12 weeks to complete will turn in to 2 year projects because you will be developing every internal library in-house. Then at the end of the 2 years you will have untested code that operates the way one man decided "would be best". Any future developer would have to butt fuck and date deathshadow for a year to learn how to code to his opinionated standards before they can become of any value to the project. Sounds like a great way to declare bankruptcy.

    Any programmer that thinks he is smarter and more brilliant than the collaborations of professionals who have worked on these frameworks are programmers you want to stay very far from your business.
     
    NetStar, Dec 22, 2015 IP
  11. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #31
    ... and again that logic disconnect over the simplest of things you don't seem to be grasping; if they can't even use HTML properly, how or even WHY the **** would you trust that they have any business doing ANYTHING in PHP given that PHP's entire JOB is to take user requests, use them to pull data, and then output that data as HTML? THAT'S WHY IT EXISTS!!!

    Just like why do they need that bloated "symphony" nonsense when there's PECL and PEAR? Why do they need to turn EVERYTHING into endless cryptic object abstractions in a programming model that has NOTHING to do with how the underling language works? What's it doing that's so massive they feel it important enough to build an entire pre-built Ubuntu distro around it? NONE of that sets off your BULLSHIT alarm?

    But AGAIN, can you point me at something built with it that doesn't vomit up an ineptly developed broken inaccessible front end? I've never seen one, and when pressed all I get is comments about "twat" and "wah wah wah, it's not so!" You SAY it isn't so, GIVE ME A REAL WORLD WORKING EXAMPLE!!!

    But EVERY time I say that, it never appears. Instead they either run away or ignore the question entirely... to the point it's like trying to have a reasonable discussion with the Vancome lady! La-la-la-la

    Or they say "no, just try it" -- got deep enough into it to say plow this! IT's JUST as dumb as all the other bloated rubbish that I can't grasp why people use, or how it improves productivity. But no, focus on just one fifth of the evaluation because you don't grasp how it's relevant and it seems an easy target.

    Anyone who ignores standards, creates extra work through extra abstractions, makes codebases HARDER to maintain, and blindly trust the work of others when they don't have enough knowledge of the underlying language to know if it's garbage or not has no damned business in ANY business.

    But sure, let's claim the person pushing for following good practices, clear easily followable code, and using less overall code would make the process take longer. That makes all kinds of sense... :/
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2015
    deathshadow, Dec 22, 2015 IP
  12. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #32
    Look he's typing in bold. He must be stressed again... So...we all use a framework whether it has been designed for our project, designed by a 3rd party, or a convoluted mess of snippets, scripts and includes that we have accumulated over the years... All of these strategies to layout our program are designed to have some sort of structure whether it be based on best practice defined by a group of people or yourself. Sometimes your program doesn't need well thought out structure because you are the only one working on it. If that's the case by all means do and use whatever you want. However, if you ever plan to have others work on the project you will need a well documented structure to how your application should extend. Your only options are to do it in house or to use an existing "framework" aka design pattern and library collection. If time, resources, and finance is not of a concern of yours then by all means do it in house. However, if it's crucial to meet dead lines or apply your main focus on the project you wish to implement and not the internal pattern it uses then by all means use a framework.

    The biggest advantage of using an existing framework is that it has been tried and tested by thousands and built by dozens of articulate minds just like yourself if not more. The disadvantage is you do have yet another abstract layer of code. But the entire architecture is not included in your compilation. It's 2015 not 1999. The advantage of "rolling your own" whether you name it a framework or not is that it's tailored to your application. The disadvantage is that it's not mature, tested by thousands, nor do you benefit from having dozens of articulate minds pushing and developing the code to it's limits.

    The deciding factor of whether you should use a 3rd party framework or do it all in house generally comes down to just time and money. Both can produce the efficient results you need if done right. Personally, (my opinion which cannot be vs yours since it's an opinion) is that I'd rather invest my time in working on my project and not recreating a programming pattern over and over and over that has already been built, matured, and well tested.
     
    NetStar, Dec 22, 2015 IP
  13. D3Tek

    D3Tek Active Member

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    #33
    I 100% agree with NetStar, I've been a developer for 10 or 11 years now, maybe not as long as you guys but it's enough. I've created my own applications built without frameworks when the project requires and I've used frameworks, such as Laravel. I'm not sure how the front-end has any mention in this, because the front-end is whatever the designer wanted, or however it was coded. Maybe it uses Bootstrap, Zurb or nothing at all. Laravel doesn't make the front-end break or inaccessible.

    But yes, an opinion is an opinion and cannot be argued with. Some people like to use code from when the butter churner was first invented and some people like to use code from this century, that follows good practices and solid structures.

    I've honestly had a client say to me "can you create a site with a login, register and a dashboard with a design coded in Bootstrap so I can pitch it to my boss", or something along those lines. They intended to expand on it later. Nice and simple, spin up an instance of Laravel, use the Auth scaffolding, code the design, job done! I now have a solid application that is secure and works flawlessly. Client loved it, pitched the idea and they carried on developing it. I sadly was too busy after they confirmed the job, but they got a new developer and he picked up from it using Laravel and not some code written by someone with completely different ideas on how code should look and be structured. Just because Laravel has a plethora of libraries and functions, doesn't mean you have to use them. In fact, you can even remove a lot of dependencies if you so wish. Sadly, though, anyone on a 5 kbps Internet won't be able to load the entire site in seconds because Laravel as a whole is more than 3 bytes of data big.

    Many, many certified developers with way more experience than all of us and, likely, more knowledgeable developers, will agree that Laravel or other frameworks are perfectly fine.
     
    D3Tek, Dec 22, 2015 IP
  14. PoPSiCLe

    PoPSiCLe Illustrious Member

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    #34
    While having structure and design standards on larger projects is important, having to learn and use a framework can also be time consuming. Any PHP coder should be able to pick up code made with pure PHP, and continue working on that.
    While yes, some code is often reused within your own apps, why is that a bad thing?

    Why would you need a framework or bootstrap to create something as simple as a login / admin interface concept? A few lines of html for the login, a couple backend php scripts, and maybe another html file for the admin? Granted, I haven't used laravel (installing it on a Windows box isn't possible if I remember correctly), but I can't understand why it would be any faster.
     
    PoPSiCLe, Dec 25, 2015 IP
  15. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #35
    That is far from true. Have you ever worked on a collaborative application for a large company??? It doesn't sound like it. Often the original programmers that created the foundation of the application have moved on. You eventually get spaghetti code with dozens of different programmers with various skillets patching bugs and implementing updates over the year. When you have a large robust application like that you need a specific design pattern. Simply reading php code is NOT enough. Newbies think that.
     
    NetStar, Dec 25, 2015 IP
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  16. PoPSiCLe

    PoPSiCLe Illustrious Member

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    #36
    My point was that as long as you have in-house coding standards, and documentation, it's not a problem. Yes, I know that that's often not the case, but that's not a problem with PHP. And why would a framework help in that regard? There are lots of ways to abuse a framework, just as there are lots of ways to abuse regular php. What happens when a coder needs a specific function, but for some reason it isn't available in the framework, or its obscurely named, and he can't find it, and makes his own class or function. And the problem rears it head even with a framework. It's not the framework that makes unified code, it's the programmers working on the code. And if you have crap coders, no framework is gonna save the project.
     
    PoPSiCLe, Dec 26, 2015 IP
  17. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #37
    You can write bad code with a framework. You are correct. But the major difference is a framework provides a specific pattern for how you layout your valid or invalid code. It makes it very easy for anyone to take over and immediately extend or figure out where the working pieces are. You can do the same with developing a system in house as well. But are you paying your developers to create internal tools or your application? you can waste a lot of time, resources and money recreating editors, tools, and libraries that already exist to assist you right now. Smart programming is all about thinking logically.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2015
    NetStar, Dec 26, 2015 IP
  18. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #38
    So where's the logic in using another layer of abstraction, that is needlessly cryptic, to do anything real you still end up writing nearly as much code, without understanding how it really works?

    I could almost see your point of large projects, but to me it sounds like you've been involved in crappy ones with project managers who have no honking clue what they are doing; admittedly that describes more and more projects where instead of actually acting like a manager, the current crop of middle-management failing-upwards ivy-leaguers just say something like "use git" so they can kick back, put their feet up on the desk to play Farmville all day.

    In many ways, reminding me of all those ugly COBOL, DiBol and Fortran programs from back when everyone was paid by the K-Loc... where many programmers used massive off the shelf libraries to do things that just made the project bigger, fatter, less well documented and harder to maintain.

    To me, frameworks make that worse, not better. PARTICULARLY when in a lot of cases people learn the framework BEFORE they have a proper grasp of the underlying language or logic, leaving them ill equipped to even determine if the framework is blowing smoke up their ass or not. See jQuery as the poster-child for that... though it seems all "modern" frameworks suffer from the "I have a hammer, so everything looks like nails" mentality.

    ... and from what I've seen of all these frameworks compared to what I've learned the past 37+ years of writing software? That's a LOT of smoke and a lot of ass.

    Of course the "hundreds of minds is better" excuse ends up a bit like the "open source fixes bugs faster" claim -- 100% malarkey -- Right Bugzilla 915?. One year out from no longer being jailbait.

    ... and how many people work on wordpress? That's still an insecure buggy train wreck I cannot fathom how anyone is DUMB ENOUGH to use, but people are following around with a waffle cone hoping it shits strawberry ice cream like Pam Anderson. Ends up the same fallacy as when some Christ*** says "2.2 billion people can't be wrong" -- completely ignoring the other 5.3 billion+ on the planet.

    Just because all the other lemmings are running off the cliff...

    Hence those pesky seven propaganda techniques that make the documentation for things like Laravel or CodeIgnitor reek of market-speak double-talk instead of a legitimate resource. The first six -- Glittering generalities, transfer, plain folks, testimonial, bandwagon, and card stacking are found in abundance. Only name-calling is left out in the direct sense, though the use of "loaded words" allows them to do it in a much more subtle manner. (I am sadly way too ham-fisted on that one.)

    Whenever I see those, it sets off my bullshit alarm.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2015
    deathshadow, Dec 26, 2015 IP
  19. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #39
    So let me clarify. The company I work for is a billion dollar company. You've heard of them. You've seen the commercials. I am not a developer. I am a National Consultant for the company. We have teams of developers. The original creators of our software and web sites created the "foundation" years ago. They have since moved on to different positions, or are working now with other business units, or retired, or quit for whatever reason, or got terminated for whatever reason. Our internals were built in-house. We didn't implement a framework that anyone can use it's just our applications structure. It uses design patterns that you are most familiar with as with any quality programmer. The applications structure makes sense and is logical. Due to the original developers non-existence and our tremendous growth we have grown our development team and hire many developers on the regular basis. These are top notch qualified developers with years of experience. And when you have top notch developers with many years of experience they each come with a specific way of doing things that make the most sense to them. This is generally quite different from the next person. All of the programmers visions make sense. Due to this, they are working on someone elses vision and trying to implement theirs in to it. Then the next developer takes over etc. etc. etc. We even go through a 14 week training process on What our applications do, How they are used, How development works, The implementation process, Sales process, Consulting, etc. They even are trained on our code based and everything IS documented in a large internal help center.

    Because of the MANY working parts of our applications that all interact with each other it can get quite complex to extend, patch, or change. Over the years you end up with spaghetti code. It's all quality code but it's also all over the place. Due to this the development process suffers. Extending becomes more complex and time consuming. When a new hire starts even after the 14 week training he/she is staring at a massive code base that contains fragments of someone elses personality and vision. It is HARD to extend.

    We are now in a situation where we MUST rewrite. However, we are rewriting our software with 75% of a new team as most senior developers are no longer with us. This process is going to cost us millions of dollars and a LOT of time. To combat this MESS of a situation that WE put ourselves in we are using a Framework. A Framework that is already built that ANYONE can use. It's not built in house. It's not built for us. It's all 3rd party code. Our goal is to write code that can easily be extended by ANYONE. We DON'T want to be responsible for the internal structure. We simply CANNOT spend and waste time on that. It MUST be something that already exists that provides a proven and chosen pattern and specific guidelines to work with. That is the only way we will fix our massive problem that we are faced with today. We are well aware it adds another abstract layer of code. We are also fully aware that out of the box it speeds down the execution and compilation. But it with out a doubt will speed up our development process and make our application more robust and easy to extend which is way more important to us. Servers, Hardware, memory etc. is cheap. Caching is cheap. The salary of over 500 employees is not.

    And that alone is why I am a HUGE advocate for frameworks. Especially in collaborative environments. On a smaller scale it absolutely makes it easier for you to develop, keeps you organized and provides extendable structure to your application. As for any performance sacrifices they are easy to overcome and often won't make a noticeable difference.

    Note: I also want to add. I had the opportunity to see code written for an Adobe application. It was worked on by dozens of people and matured over the years. It blew my mind how the code grew in to a mess. It's a computer language. It's no different than the English language. There's a million ways to say something and none of them are wrong. There are also a million ways for an artist to paint a picture of a horse and I guarantee you if you launched a 100 foot canvas and allowed 100 brilliant artists to spend no more than 30 seconds to paint a single horse you will either get a beautiful picture of the most gorgeous horse on this planet or more realistically a fucked up sadistic horse with angel wings with a fluffy multi color tail and horns flying over the grand canyon in the middle of the night with a full moon in one corner and the sun in the other. Everyone has a different vision and a framework at the very least will provide some sort of blue print and direction.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2015
    NetStar, Dec 27, 2015 IP
    ThePHPMaster and sarahk like this.
  20. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #40
    Enron? I keed, I keed... I actually worked for Enron...

    ... and that right there shows a lot of where your opinion on the topic comes from -- and probably why the actual developers working on that rewrite are cursing middle and upper management to the deepest pits of hell every day at work.

    Probably from "senior developers" going "**** this ****" and "**** you guys, I'm going home".

    Though I freely admit, I don't work well with others, and I have yet to encounter a "framework" that works or has a direction that makes the least bit of sense to me. Combined they make me question the sanity of the people choosing it, and wonder how anyone who's ACTUALLY a developer puts up with it!

    But really my experience as a developer is what sets off my BS alarm with this stuff -- It's the same asinine crap we dealt with in the '80's just come home for round 2... only this time middle-management non-developers who think they can get sound advice from the pages of Forbes -- for most of whom things like jQuery, HTML 5 or Laravel are little more than sick buzzwords -- are shoving it down the green college kids hired as disposable every year sweat shop labor.

    Which is likely why I bet that big unnamed mega-corporation you claim to work for (that I highly doubt since you're as mum about that as a government spook is on which alphabet soup they come from) if it's working as you describe has severe issues with developer retention.

    Since your description sounds REALLY familiar from past experiences with places that couldn't hold onto talent for more than two months at a pop.

    But really, if you're not a developer, WHAT THE BLUE BLAZES MAKES YOU QUALIFIED TO OPEN YOUR YAP ON THE TOPIC OF DEVELOPMENT TOOLS!?!
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2015
    deathshadow, Dec 27, 2015 IP