1. Advertising
    y u no do it?

    Advertising (learn more)

    Advertise virtually anything here, with CPM banner ads, CPM email ads and CPC contextual links. You can target relevant areas of the site and show ads based on geographical location of the user if you wish.

    Starts at just $1 per CPM or $0.10 per CPC.

Penalization for overuse of Level 1, 2, 3 headings and SEO Value

Discussion in 'Search Engine Optimization' started by bobafind, Aug 6, 2004.

  1. #1
    I've been trying to figure out how one of my "competitors" (though they're not a business competitor, just an eyeball / SERP competitor) has been constantly at the top of the SERPs for most of my keywords. They do have a lot of internal links, though very few external inbound links. Something I noticed today however threw me off:

    Their homepage is almost completely enclosed in <h2> tags, about a paragraph to a couple of sentences at a time.
    SEMrush
    You would think that Google would penalize them for something like that. They are even using <font> tags to make the font smaller, not even external CSS as was discussed in an earlier thread (sorry - can't link to it yet).

    I am thinking about doing some of the same on a much smaller scale, but definately don't want to if I will be penalized. I could see maybe a sentence or two at a time, but I haven't delved into this area of SEO before.

    any ideas?
    Joel
     
    bobafind, Aug 6, 2004 IP
    SEMrush
  2. bobafind

    bobafind Peon

    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    3
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #2
    Just to clarify, I would use external CSS, not font tags.
     
    bobafind, Aug 6, 2004 IP
  3. nohaber

    nohaber Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    18
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    138
    #3
    I don't think your competitor outranks you because of h2 tags. Can you provide your url + keywords, so that we can check out the sites.
     
    nohaber, Aug 6, 2004 IP
  4. Foxy

    Foxy Chief Natural Foodie

    Messages:
    1,614
    Likes Received:
    48
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #4
    IMHO this is correct

    It has been shown that H2 tags can in fact have the opposite effect.

    It was proposed somewhere that H2 was more important than H1 but in a another thread here I proved the theory wrong.

    If you provide the site and KW we can have a look
     
    Foxy, Aug 7, 2004 IP
  5. bobafind

    bobafind Peon

    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    3
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #5
    My website: http://www.bobafind.com/
    My competitors: http://www.bubbleteasupply.com/

    Keywords:
    Bubble Tea, Pearl Tea, Boba, Bubble Tea Recipes, Boba Recipes, Bubble Tea Locations, Boba Locations...

    As you can see, most of those include the same phrases, Bubble Tea and Boba, so I am wondering if I am repeating them too many times. I try to use them in a sentence such as "Locate Bubble Tea, Pearl Tea and Boba shops and cafes in your area
    ." Is that too much?

    Hopefully you will have a few tips once you can get a look at the site, and any help you can offer is MUCH appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Joel
     
    bobafind, Aug 7, 2004 IP
  6. nohaber

    nohaber Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    18
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    138
    #6
    Joel,

    your site has a PR of 3 and your competitor a PR of 5. Depending on the logarithmic factor, your competitor has about 100 times more PageRank. Your competitor has links from yahoo's directory plus lots of other sites. Your site has just a couple of links from forums. Forum links have NO real PR value.

    Now, if you buy the "PR does not matter theory", you can sit on your *** and tweak your keyword density (another nonsense) and wait in vain.

    If you ask me, work on links/PR if you want to outrank your competitor.

    No. There's no overoptimization penalty. Yet, you have got this on page factor, but you need the other: PageRank + anchor texts.

    Best
    Hristo
     
    nohaber, Aug 7, 2004 IP
  7. Foxy

    Foxy Chief Natural Foodie

    Messages:
    1,614
    Likes Received:
    48
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #7
    To explain a little on this the PR influence has been reduced [and has been reduced severely it seems with forum links] so is not a factor that has the same importance as before. That been said it still exists and comes from the linking that you do - so in effect if you look at your linking, both internal and external, and the use of anchor text, you will do both.

    With keyword density, KWD, it is not worth worrying about, but the keyword count is - that is, how many times it appears on a page.

    To look at your title:

    Bubble Tea, Pearl Tea and Boba Locations, Cafes and Shops by zip code - BobaFind.com

    IMHO you are wasting what you are "selling" eg are you really selling "zip code" to the search engines? Take it out.

    I would probaly do something like

    Bubble Tea, Pearl Tea, Boba

    and the H1 and the anchor text should be "Bubble Tea" not

    Bubble Tea / Boba Recipes

    and you need to use the tools to perfect things

    :)
     
    Foxy, Aug 8, 2004 IP
  8. bobafind

    bobafind Peon

    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    3
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #8
    I have a few important backlinks that are about a month old now that still don't show up in Google, both are PR5, one of them a DMOZ listing. Any ideas why those haven't been included as backlinks yet?
     
    bobafind, Aug 8, 2004 IP
  9. compar

    compar Peon

    Messages:
    2,705
    Likes Received:
    169
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #9
    It's all about links. Here are your links:

    Results for: http://www.bobafind.com/

    Engine Count
    Google 12
    Yahoo 18
    MSN 11
    AllTheWeb 19
    AltaVista 18

    Here are your competitor's:

    Results for: http://www.bubbleteasupply.com/

    Engine Count
    Google 47
    Yahoo 129
    MSN 41
    AllTheWeb 123
    AltaVista 126

    Nohaber and I disagree slightly about PR cause and effect, but there is no doubt why your competitor places ahead of you in the SERPs. He has more IBL.

    Now I believe that the important thing about IBL is the proper use of your prime keywords as anchor text. If you get lots of IBL with the right anchor text you will rate high in the SERPs.

    As side effect of lots of links will be an increase in your PR. But it isn't PR that makes you place well in the SERPs. It is the number of links and the proper anchor text.

    But whether you believe my view, or Nohaber's view on this, both our positions are that you need more links. On-page stufff like <h> tags has very limited impact on anything. Get more links!
     
    compar, Aug 8, 2004 IP
  10. Harold

    Harold Peon

    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #10
    Hi,

    In this persons original post, he mentioned that his competitor's website had almost their entire body within <H2> tags. The focus of the follow-up postings all focused on back links.

    I would like to ask a question about his observation concerning the use of header tags.

    Is there any benefit or penalty in having one's entire home page inside <H1> and <H2> header tags? I also have seen header tags used around whole paragraphs instead of just titles.

    Thanks
     
    Harold, Aug 13, 2004 IP
  11. T0PS3O

    T0PS3O Feel Good PLC

    Messages:
    13,220
    Likes Received:
    778
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #11
    Think about it:

    H tags supposedly give more value to those words within their tags.

    Put an entire page between h tags.

    Now Google sees 10,000 words between H tags...

    Will it give more weight to all of these?

    Or will it dilute that bit of weight that can be shared?

    I doubt you will get a penalty though, because it is a stupid thing to do. But who knows. Test it and find out!

    But as suggested, it's not the inside that counts. It's the outside.. Get backlinks in an ethical way!
     
    T0PS3O, Aug 13, 2004 IP
  12. mcdar

    mcdar Peon

    Messages:
    1,831
    Likes Received:
    110
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #12
    I agree with Bob and nohaber, you need more links! Specifically, links with your keywords in the anchor text.

    I ran your site through the Keyword Analysis Tool (link in signature below)...

    [​IMG]

    Remember that the Links reported by Google do NOT accurately reflect the actual total of links pointing to a particular page. The results in the "Yahoo Links" column give some indication of the total possible links pointing to the top 10 sites.
     
    mcdar, Aug 13, 2004 IP
  13. mcdar

    mcdar Peon

    Messages:
    1,831
    Likes Received:
    110
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #13
    I must add though, that it is obvious that the over use of the <h> tags has not seemed to hurt his competitor.

    Other than the fact that, without them, they might be #1 for the search.

    Caryl
     
    mcdar, Aug 13, 2004 IP
  14. bobafind

    bobafind Peon

    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    3
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #14
    Obiously I need more links. :)

    One funny thing is that the #1 result for "bubble tea" IS my competitor. It's a page with just a bunch of graphic links to bubbleteasupply.com.

    Perhaps google also gave a little bit of weight due to the domain?

    I know, I know.. .links.

    Joel
     
    bobafind, Aug 13, 2004 IP
  15. Arnica

    Arnica Peon

    Messages:
    320
    Likes Received:
    14
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #15
    Yep but look at the pages that link to that page - most link using the anchor text 'bubble tea'. It is largely this that gives it the first place rather than the page markup.

    Mick
     
    Arnica, Aug 13, 2004 IP
  16. hergo

    hergo Peon

    Messages:
    85
    Likes Received:
    1
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #16
    I must admit that i thought that overusing a h tag could be considered se spamming.

    Its something i'd be quite cautious about if i ever used it on any of my sites.
     
    hergo, Aug 24, 2004 IP
  17. dfsweb

    dfsweb Active Member

    Messages:
    1,587
    Likes Received:
    55
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    88
    #17
    Bobafind ... the new PR5 links that you mention .... the'll probably show up on Google the next time your back links are updated.
     
    dfsweb, Aug 26, 2004 IP