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Paying someone to help my dad out with religion

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by miketh2005, Mar 11, 2012.

  1. #1
    Hey, DP. I need help with my Dad. He has been brainwashed by the cult religion, the Jehovah's Witnesses, which I grew up with myself, of course, but fortunately came to my senses. :D I believe the right person can persuade him to see the facts. He is not too close-minded like a lot of fundamentalists.

    I've wrote about my Dad's story here, but found no interest in helping me:
    http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=2913996

    I need someone to chat with him about religion, the Bible, etc. and see how it goes. If he is unreasonable, so be it, but I do believe his will be reasonable and come to his senses. I wish for you to record the conversation (I can help with this if you don't know how), and share it with the world. I believe this will help spread the real truth around the world. I will create a website around the audio files and we can split the profits (you can have access to the adsense account a long with me to be sure). I will also pay you in a $5 Amazon GC.

    I would really appreciate if someone could do this for me! I'll help with anything you want. Please message me if you feel you can do this, and be sure to visit the above link. It will also help the atheist community.

    - Mike
     
    miketh2005, Mar 11, 2012 IP
  2. ApocalypseXL

    ApocalypseXL Notable Member

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    #2
    So he's not an extremist lunatic but you want to brainwash him so he'd be an atheists just like you . And you'll pay someone 5$ to do this ....

    Glorious_exposition_comrade.jpg
     
    ApocalypseXL, Mar 11, 2012 IP
  3. miketh2005

    miketh2005 Member

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    #3
    If you want to have a religious debate, go right ahead. What evidence is there of a God?
     
    miketh2005, Mar 11, 2012 IP
  4. ApocalypseXL

    ApocalypseXL Notable Member

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    #4
    OK let put it mathematically . If there is no God then could you explain how we humans got to this point in time ? The chances of advanced sentient life existing in after 15 billion years are around 1 in 10[SUP]130[/SUP] while the chances of winning the lotto are 1 in 14.000.000 . To get to this point in time we had to consecutively win the lotto 10[SUP]60[/SUP] times in a row . Now that's a synapse frying number anyway you'll look at it . So simply saying that we got here by a series of coincidences is borderline ridiculous .

    Anyway this type of debate can go on for ages . This thread is not about that . So in regards to your original post , are you trolling or are you seriously asking for someone to brainwash you father soviet style ?
     
    ApocalypseXL, Mar 11, 2012 IP
  5. miketh2005

    miketh2005 Member

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    #5
    This is the topic because you seem to think all atheists are brainwashed. I don't care for mathematics that may or may not be right. What evidence is there that God exists?
     
    miketh2005, Mar 11, 2012 IP
  6. ApocalypseXL

    ApocalypseXL Notable Member

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    #6
    ROFLMAO - are you that close minded when it comes to religious people . Just because you have an issue and want to brainwash your father you think that I believe that all atheists are brainwashed ?

    I'm not sure if you're trolling , twisting word or really have a siege mentality when it comes to your atheism . What you're trying to do is what the government of the USSR (and other communist countries) did in their early days . Furthermore you're doing this on the sole premises that only you hold the truth . It would be nice to see your reaction the roles would be switched and your father would try to hire someone gifted with linguistic skills to brainwash you .

    Also mathematics are invalid ? Here's the deal that number is composed by gathering probabilities like the proton/anti-proton ration after the Big Bang . But that's irrelevant to you . You want to see God in flash and bones or a video/photo of him right ? If you can't see it he doesn't exist . Dude what's the point of trying to initiate a debate if you already made your mind on the result and choose to ignore the process ?
     
    ApocalypseXL, Mar 11, 2012 IP
  7. miketh2005

    miketh2005 Member

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    #7
    You told me that I am brainwashed. I am an atheist because there is no evidence God exists. By you saying that I am brainwashed, you are saying that all atheists are brainwashed, right? I don't see how it can be taken any other way. And I am not close minded, that's why I initiated this debate to begin with. I want the truth, I am in search of the truth and nothing but the truth. =D I want to know if you have some evidence I've never seen before.

    To suggest that I am trolling means in actuality, you could be the closed-minded one, because you think whatever you believe is right, and everyone agrees with you: "Is this guy trolling? Everyone knows God exists! Why would he want to brainwash his Dad?

    Whatever USSR brainwashing happened was not based on facts. Atheism is based on facts and nothing else. Atheism is not a religion. It's stupid to say, "Only I hold the truth." That is what fundamentalists say, not atheists, because we are are truth seekers. We want the truth. Science almost never says, "This is the truth and that is that. No more comment." Because we know further evidence can come in the future, so we are open to that. If evidence were to be found of a higher being, then we would accept that, because we are logical. No evidence exists currently that I am aware of. Your mathematics does not prove God. At the very most, this is providing it is true, it is evidence of a creator. Is that creator God? We have no evidence of that. And if it is God, we have no evidence that he wants anything to do with the way we live our lives. So it's pointless.

    If you are saying that my Dad should not get out of this cult, please provide sound reasoning why, otherwise you would be the troll. Do you know anything about Jehovah's Witnesses? For all you know, it could be a Charles Manson-like cult that teaches a mass suicide to come in 10 years. (It's not, but that's only an example) Are you saying not to get him out of that group? I only want to get him out of this cult, and help him with logical reasoning and research, whatever he believes after that if fine with me. He could believe in God without this religion which is un-scriptural to begin with.

    If the roles were switch there is no way I could be brainwashed with the research tool known as the internet. I mean, how? It's impossible...
     
    miketh2005, Mar 11, 2012 IP
  8. Pandanger

    Pandanger Greenhorn

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    #8
    Is it affecting you? No, let it go. Although I agree with you, I believe any attempt to convince him of anything will drive him to want to believe it more, that's basic psychology.
     
    Pandanger, Mar 11, 2012 IP
  9. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #9
    I suppose the rule with most cults is to not lock yourself out of the cult member's acceptable sources of information by appearing to be hostile to something that is clearly bringing him pleasure.

    A better tactic to take would be to take an interest in his cult. Express interest in attending his bible studies and even his church. Always appear genuine and non-hostile. Once you have regained his trust as a fellow student in the ways of righteousness, you need to start asking questions, and keeping gentle pressure on for genuine answers. Here are a few the Witnesses will absolutely not want to answer.

    • Wasn't the end supposed to come in 1975? Why didn't it?
    • Wasn't the end supposed to come before the generation of 1914 passed awasy? Why hasn't it?
    • Once I've committed myself to this religion, if I were to make a decision of conscience that it is no longer for me, will the friends I have made here still be able to communicate with me?

    Better still, read Crisis of Conscience, or get him to read it. Its a book written by a member of their governing body who remains a believer in god to this day, but not in that particular faith, for reasons he spells out in logical detail. Its also a wonderful stroll down memory lane of that faith.

    Lets face it. When a particular faith goes around telling it's members not to go to college and not to plan for the future because the end of the world is just around the corner, the story is going to wear thin after a hundred years. Its amazing they still have any members at all.
     
    Obamanation, Mar 11, 2012 IP
  10. ApocalypseXL

    ApocalypseXL Notable Member

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    #10
    @Guywhowantstobrainswashhisdad

    No you're not trolling , you're doing a textbook definition of trolling . I said that you want to brainwash your dad so you deducted that "OP is brainwashed" >> "All atheists are brainwashed" >> "Atheism is brainwashing" . Fu*k logic , huh ? Well since that's the way it's gonna be I assume we can drop any debate . Illogical debates don't belong in this conversation .

    BTW i know that most Jehovah's are a bit more screwed up but of course it's easier to assume that I just talk out of my ass . If you're dad is not a nutter and he's happy with his religion it's an abomination to manipulate his mind . I hate that sect myself but i hate propaganda far more , IMHO all propaganda whether Christian , Jewish or Atheist is dead wrong . Manipulating a mind is easy but altering someone's core beliefs because you want to and because you can is a crime more horrible then murder .

    I agree that he could use a way out from that cult and that it might be something potentially beneficial . Obamanation's post already points out how and why . I however will never agree with your action or with any brainwashing action . If you would want to convince him that smoking is bad yes but when you want to do something mainly for your own benefit that should be forbidden . The world is already being subjected to way to much freaking propaganda and brains can't hold it off indefinitely , they eventually cave in often without realizing . You said that you're searching for the truth , how can anyone find the truth when the very thing that makes us human , the freedom of though , is denied to him . A human without complete freedom of tough is nothing more then a machine acting under a extremely complex algorithm , a living zombie to say so .
     
    ApocalypseXL, Mar 11, 2012 IP
  11. Rebecca

    Rebecca Notable Member

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    #11
    I think the idea of profiting from having your father's religious beliefs being challenged, is problematic. I don't think money should be part of the equation. If you're successful, if this is his long-standing religious belief, it may be a gradual, but somewhat disturbing process for him.

    I was just reading the Amazon reviews, sounds like a good recommendation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
    Rebecca, Mar 12, 2012 IP
  12. miketh2005

    miketh2005 Member

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    #12
    Maybe it was a mistake, but I can't find anyone to help, so the only other choice would be to offer money... I have a friend who would help me let my Dad down gradually, as I know it will be hard for him, more so than me, since he has believed this for so long.


    I think that this is all due to a misunderstanding, as you don't seem to understand what I want to do. Have you read the link at SciForums? :confused: Thank you. =)

    I believe he will be much happier without this religion. He is not happy now, and he is depressed because of this religion. It is not helping him at all. He is stressed and it will only get worse, I'm sure.

    As I've said so many times now, I only want to give him a chance. If he is not reasonable, then so be it, we tried, but he should be given a chance. For you to say he should do what he wants in life is like saying that to that one gay kid who committed suicide because of bullying. Maybe you could save someone from committing suicide if you get them to see the truth. By truth, I only mean logical thinking, not atheism as in "There is no God. Period." Obviously we don't know that. I'm just saying truth as in what we know currently. I just want him to be thinking critically. Is there really anything wrong with that?

    I do respect his freedom. He is free to do whatever he wants. I only want to give him a chance. He has no access to any research. He probably doesn't even know how to use the library, even. So how would he know any better?

    I'm not sure why you thought I want to brainwash him. I only want him thinking and provide him to research to do that. He is free to do what he wants after that.

    Thank you for understanding.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
    miketh2005, Mar 12, 2012 IP
  13. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #13
    You were a JW too? I thought he was just getting started. How long has he been in?
     
    Obamanation, Mar 12, 2012 IP
  14. Rebecca

    Rebecca Notable Member

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    #14
    I don't know if this would help, but I Googled ex jehovah witness. The first result is: Ex-Jehovah's Witness Forum and Recovery. I just read a few posts there, but they seem kind of helpful.
     
    Rebecca, Mar 12, 2012 IP
  15. miketh2005

    miketh2005 Member

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    #15
    About 40 years, lol. Please read the thread on SciForums. It explains quite a lot. Thanks a bunch.

    Someone mentioned that on another forum, but:

    Oi.
     
    miketh2005, Mar 12, 2012 IP
  16. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #16
    Well I'm sure you are capable of doing the Google search for Jehovah's Witness help groups, but this site has a nice roundup of the more popular forums out there for the ex-witness community. Several of them are quite large.

    Regarding your dad, gee, 40 years. I don't know what to tell you. He's screwed.

    As I'm sure you know, Witnesses control the behavior of their members with threats of social isolation. All members of the church are discouraged from associating with "worldly" non-members, and social status and association within the church is based on how well you are perceived to be following the rules. Basically, if he just stops attending, there is a good chance he will be labeled a bad associate and those within the church will be encouraged not to associate with him on a social level, other than to encourage him to start attending church again.

    Perhaps you went through it getting out, or perhaps that doesn't seem like a big deal to you, but the threat of having a lifetime's worth of friends taken away from you by the church, the threat of social isolation to a person later in life can be scarier than the threat of physical harm. You also can't discount the idea that your dad has spent 40 years building up credit with god by knocking on people's doors and helping to spread the word. If you were ever able to convince him to get out, he would have to acknowledge that he wasted his life on a lie. You describe him as depressed, so perhaps he is already coming to that conclusion on his own.

    If it were my dad, I'd make sure he knew I loved him and supported him, but I would stop pressuring him to get out. Removing a parasite that has been there for so long can kill the host. If he comes to it on his own, what he will need more than anything is the support of friends and family.


    Its just my 2 cents, but I have some experience in the matter.
     
    Obamanation, Mar 12, 2012 IP
  17. miketh2005

    miketh2005 Member

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    #17
    Can you please read the thread of SciForums? Most of your points I have written about on SciForums. lol =(

    My Dad hasn't been going to the meetings for a few months now, but not because he doesn't believe.

    I wouldn't be able to support him at all if he shuns me. Right now he doesn't know anything about my true beliefs.

    I posted on JWN before I posted here and got no help.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
    miketh2005, Mar 12, 2012 IP
  18. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #18
    Sorry. Generally when I read a post that says in essence "Make money by talking my dad out of his religion" I tend to give it the amount of my time it deserves, which is almost none, and certainly doesn't entail clicking through to other forums for background information on your situation. I only originally responded because I know someone who has dealt with this exact situation.

    Now that you've pushed the issue, and got me to click through to your other forum post, I came across this little gem you posted.

    I immediately kicked myself for idiotically responding to a post that didn't need a response.

    Anyway, if you actually have a dad or a friend who is a Jehovah's Witness, and there is any small portion of your story that is actually true, you got some free advice. Do what you will with it and have a nice life.
     
    Obamanation, Mar 12, 2012 IP
  19. ApocalypseXL

    ApocalypseXL Notable Member

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    #19
    Oh frak , you're 17 no wonder you were complete obtuse . You see yourself as an evolved man , well moving on . If he's miserable due to his religion you can ween him off slowly , freedom is the most important thing but you mustn't leave a loved one to do major damage to himself (like starting heroin consumption) .

    The human mind is simple and stupid when it comes to this type of stuff . You said he not very educated so he'll likely go into siege mentality if you try to hard , he's already very unhappy due to his marriage so you need to thread carefully . Critical thinking is bull , the human mind already thinks like that you just need to trow in some new variables in the equation . The odds are already in your favor , you should talk about extremisms from time to time (once a week to begin with) get him to admit that all religious extremism is harmful (choose your words carefully) . Then let him get even more miserable after that meeting of theirs , only after that start moving in for the kill (slowly) get him to reject the JW first . If he's still miserable as a Christian continue the process .

    If you make a charade out of it you're an idiot , a real man doesn't expose his family business in public , never .
     
    ApocalypseXL, Mar 12, 2012 IP
  20. miketh2005

    miketh2005 Member

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    #20
    No one helps. Maybe I was foolish enough to think anyone would help someone, like this, but I did. I see people debating about religion on the internet all the time, but I can't find someone to do it over the phone? I don't get it. I posted asking for help and no one helped, so I decided to offer money. What else am I going to do? I also stated that I would appreciate it more if they could do it for free. Why wouldn't this be true? I wouldn't offer money to someone for the fun of it?
     
    miketh2005, Mar 12, 2012 IP