Overtures Users (This is a Must Read)

For a lot of Overture/Yahoo pay per click advertisers out there, their biggest concern is click fraud. Yes, I would have to agree that paid surfers and competitor clicks most likely account for as much as 60% of your advertising PPC budget. Others like myself would have to argue that 60% is not bad in the PPC world, that still leaves a 40% click activity that may be truly interested in your product. I would say from past experience that Google is as high as 80% for click fraud and for the other small PPC sites, like Miva, GoClick, Enhance & 7Search, if it were not for the paid surfers, they would provide almost Zero traffic.

I experimented a few years ago, with the bulk of these smaller engines. GoClick, for example on 13 Cent average bid, outperformed Google & Overture/Yahoo Marketing in click activity. If you think this is impossible, think again. After reviewing my logs, GoClick registered over 3,000 clicks on one keyword in a 30 day period. These 3,000 clicks equated to one application. I must have run into a paid surfer that needed a mobile home loan. (I am the webmaster for a mobile home mortgage lender)

Enough about them, let's get back to Overture/Yahoo Marketing, I think all marketers will agree since Yahoo purchased Overture there have been a lot of changes. For the good and the bad, but the bad is now greatly out weighing the good. Let's talk about the bad. Go to Yahoo and type the keyword phrase "Modular Home Mortgage". Let's look at their top sponsored listings and ask yourself do any of these firms directly provide mortgages. No, they are ALL lead sellers, not one Mortgage Lender in the bunch. Now here is the real eye opener, the below listings only account for 2 firms. The rest of the sites are nothing more than doorway pages. I can hear you now, they can't do that, that is against Overture/Yahoo Marketing Guidelines. The editors would not allow it. As you can see, they do and will turn a blind eye for their big money advertisers. For the consumer this must be frustrating, and for other advertisers this is a no win situation. To jump in the middle of these firms, would be like coming to a gun fight without a gun. You would instantly find yourself back doored and clicked out of existence. This is a small example, some keywords have as many as 25 sponsored listings with as few as 4 or 5 unique advertisers.

1) * Modular Home Mortgage - Refinance Quotes Compare rates and receive up to four mortgage quotes by completing an easy online form at NexTag. Start saving today
www.nextag.com - NEXTAG.COM
2) * Modular Home Mortgage Quotes Get multiple mortgage, refinance, and home equity loan quotes. Compare and save with up to four free quotes and no obligation. Apply in 60 seconds with one fast, easy form.
www.calibex.com - NEXTAG.COM - Different name, same firm
3) *Modular Home Mortgage - Free Quotes Compare mortgage and refinance quotes for modular homes from 100's of local lenders. All credit OK, instant response.
www.refinancelibrary.com - LOWERMYBILLS.COM - Generic Doorway Page - Same firm
4) # Modular Home Mortgage - Compare Rates
Compare mortgage, refinance and home equity quotes. Bad credit OK, no cost or...
5) www.ussavingsnetwork.com - LOWERMYBILLS.COM - Generic Doorway Page - Same firm
# Free Mortgage Loan Quotes
6) Modular home mortgages. $160,000 Mortgage for $785/month. Refinance now and save...
www.ameridebtgroup.com - LOWERMYBILLS.COM - Generic Doorway Page - Same firm

When an advertiser signs up with Overture/Yahoo Marketing, they agree to be bound by certain terms. These terms must go out the window if you have a large advertising budget.

I have brought this to the attention Overtures/Yahoo Marketing and received the following auto-response, I will touch base and re-post if I ever hear back. Please keep reading there is more after their response.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Dec 29 2005 10:58 PT

Hello XXX,

We understand that you are concerned with listings appearing in our search results that you feel are not compliant with our guidelines. Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. We have forwarded your message to our Global Content Quality team so that they may conduct a thorough review of the listings in question.

While privacy issues prevent us from informing you of any specific decisions we make, please know that we will perform a full review and, if necessary, take the appropriate action.

Thank you for sharing your comments with us.

Please do not hesitate to contact us if we can be of any further assistance.

Sincerely,

XXXXX XXXXXXX
Customer Solutions
Yahoo! Search Marketing

---------------------------------------------------------------------

But the change from Overture to Yahoo Marketing even gets better. As a webmaster I personally would never bid on my URL or my firms name, as this would appear in natural listings and I would be wasting my money. From the Yahoo Marketing editorial guidelines, no one else can do this either, right? Wrong, unless you complain about it, your firms name & URL are most likely on the Yahoo bidding block. Here is a competitor by the name of "Aaron Financial" with a URL of www.aaronfinancial.net, he spends a lot of money on Overture/Yahoo, when did Aaron Financial authorize Yahoo the right to sell his Name & URL? (see below). I guess he is forced to pay to keep his own name in the mix.

Yahoo: Keyword: Aaron Financial

Local Mortgages - 2 Minute Quotes
Find great deals on local mortgages in under 2 minutes. In addition, use our free simple calculator and check our daily rates. Visit our site now and see the amazing offers that await.
www.2minutequotes.com (sponsored listing) - NOT AARON FINANCIAL

Need A Simple Low Rate Loan in Minutes?
Simple sign up and fast decision. Upto four lenders will match your loan offer. For Home Mortgage, Refinance, Debt Consolidation and Other Loans. Aaron financial.
usloans.freeequityquote.com (sponsored listing) - NOT AARON FINANCIAL

Aaron Financial: Mobile Home Refinancing
Aaron Financial Services provides expert financing/refinancing services to manufactured/mobile home owners both on privately owned and leased (in parks) land. Thirty years of experience.
www.aaronfinancial.net (sponsored listing)

Mobile Home Refinance - Free Quote
Interest Rates Are AT AN ALL Time LOW. Mountainside Financial helps clients with mobile/manufactured home refinance programs. MSF is the mobile home refinancing specialist.
www.mountainsidefinancial.com (sponsored listing) - NOT AARON FINANCIAL



Yahoo: Keyword: www.aaronfinancial.net


Need A Simple Low Rate Loan in Minutes?
Simple sign up and fast decision. Upto four lenders will match your loan offer. For Home Mortgage, Refinance, Debt Consolidation and Other Loans. aaronfinancial.net.
usloans.freeequityquote.com (sponsored listing) - NOT AARON FINANCIAL

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Finally, Will Overture/Yahoo Marketing ever enforce their own guidelines and cost themselve Millions or will the find a reason why the above examples should be allowed?



Just My Thoughts,

Jack Jordan
Webmaster - www.jcfinc.com
jack@mhloans

 

Do you have a point; or are you just complaining?

I mean, why is this a "must read"?

 

Yeah, I agree with Bob, why is this a MUST read......it's just your opinion on something, not something EVERYBODY should agree on.

 

JCFInc's post may be a little self indulgent, but if you read through his post he raises some valuable points about the way pay per click is going.

I don't agree with his fraud estimates. My guess based on trawling log files is tha its about 20%. And I'm aware that in the loans and mortgages markets click costs can be very high. The click charges can only rise if PPC buyers are getting worthwhile leads.

 

dburdon,

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. I should be a little more clear on how I came up with my click fraud percentages, I do not rely on server logs alone, because if I did, I too would be under the impression that the numbers were much less than I now know they are. Servers with floating IP addresses and the all important AOL, make detecting click fraud almost impossible for accurate numbers. I use Live Person on my site, I can see in real time, who is in my site, the keywords used, referring site, machine ID and most importantly how many visits to my site they have made and the pages they have browsed, this includes AOL users. Live person also gives me the ability to determine if an actual person is clicking on my site or the click is coming from an automated source and/or bot.

How do I determine click fraud? First and foremost, the referring site. Most of my competitor click fraud is channeled through AOL, as you may or may not be aware, Overture/Yahoo marketing still can not identify individual AOL users. I find this very surprising because Live Person can, why wouldn't Overture/Yahoo have the same ability, unless they truly need click fraud to increase their revenue. AOL uses Google, so when I see a user come in from AOL, referred by Yahoo using a popular keyword and that same user waits a few minutes and accesses my site through another popular keyword, this I consider click fraud. I have had instances where one AOL user has had my site opened up on as many as 16 separate Overture Affiliates. Competitor click fraud accounts for only a small portion of my fraudulent clicks.

The bulk comes from sites created to generate pay per click income, which I believe are boiler room operations. The common theme is Comcast with floating IP's, again Overture/Yahoo Marketing cannot identify the individual machine, which opens the door for fraud and large incomes for the site owners. A good example and just one site where a lot of my clicks come from is http://foxypoxy.50webs.com/mobile-home-financing.html. This one site accounts for hundreds of Comcast hits monthly and has yet to provide one application. All visits are almost duplicated, index page for not quite 2 minutes and off they go to a new keyword.

I stand by my earlier post and say again 60% of my Overture/Yahoo Marketing budget is lost to click fraud.

CP Hosts makes the statement of " Yeah, I agree with Bob, why is this a MUST read......it's just your opinion on something, not something EVERYBODY should agree on. ". First of all if you are an Overture/Yahoo Marketing Customer, what I have posted would in fact be of the utmost importance. I have clearly pointed out that Overture/Yahoo Marketing has completely abandoned their guidelines, they are in direct violation of the very agreement that all advertisers enter into. CP Hosts makes the statement "it's just your opinion on something, not something EVERYBODY should agree on", this is not my opinion, it is FACT. Type the term " Modular Home Mortgage" into Overture and see for yourself. Facts do not leave room for opinions.



Just My Thoughts,

Jack Jordan
Webmaster - www.jcfinc.com
jack@mhloans

 

CP Hosts - I almost forgot, Overture/Yahoo Marketing is selling your name as well. Type your name into Overture and you get the following results. How many people looking for your firm get diverted to one of your 15 competitors. If you call Overture/Yahoo Marketing and raise a stink, they will stop. Also slamming the President of the United States? Not a smart business move, 50% of the public would be insulted and that is just my "Opinion".

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that was a superb post....

ROFL....ROFL....ROFL....

 

Hahaha, but actually we stopped paying Yahoo! for nearly 2 weeks now. But they still display our ad in the overture network as long as we don't close the account....I don't think there is anything wrong with Free Advertising, do you? Unless you want to pay them to display your ad for free Maybe that's why it says "Additional Listing"......

And our blog was not slamming the president of the United States, it was showing the effect of Google Bombing, so get your facts straight or don't post at all

 

I run a overture campaign and have profited quite a bit. I just recently had to drop out of the top spots, however, due to click fraud. They really need to limit how many clicks from a single IP address. It is my opinion that persons who committ click fraud are some of the lowest forms of human beings on the planet. In the last seven days I have my ad has averaged 3000 views a day fairly consistently. But the amount spent on those days went from just $10-20 a day to 50 in a single day. This is obviously click fraud. Any suggestions on spotting the culprets and reporting them.

As for me, apperently I am at a disadvantage as far as pay-per-click goes due to the fact that I refuse to committ click fraud myself!!

 

Maybe you are right! Anuway YPN is very new, right?
So it will have some problems in Beta!

 

cphosts,

I must respond to your comment and now know why you responded to my original post with a non-thinking statement. You are not currently a Overture/Yahoo Marketing customer. If you were, my post would have been a must read.

I must respond to your latest post, because it lacks knowledge and some on this board might think what you are saying is based in truth.

CPHOSTS: Hahaha, but actually we stopped paying Yahoo! for nearly 2 weeks now. But they still display our ad in the overture network as long as we don't close the account....I don't think there is anything wrong with Free Advertising, do you? Unless you want to pay them to display your ad for free Maybe that's why it says "Additional Listing"......

You must be very new to the internet or very inexperienced with Overture/Yahoo, "Additional Listing" is not a free ad or Free Advertising. After the paid listings, Overture displays the natural listings, which they call Additional Listings.

You're not getting a free lunch, in fact you are getting ripped off, Overture is selling your name and you are not profiting a dime. But, if you complain to Overture/Yahoo Marketing they will stop, they are real lucky that their advertisers have not started a class action suit for violating their terms of use.

CPHOSTS: And our blog was not slamming the president of the United States, it was showing the effect of Google Bombing, so get your facts straight or don't post at all

This I must apologize for, I am new to this board and did not realize that the statement by your name represented the last topic you had visited. But on your last statement, why are you giving advise on PPC Advertising, when your statements clearly indicate that you are completely in the dark and lack any true knowledge.

Jack

 

cphosts,

I must respond to your comment and now know why you responded to my original post with a non-thinking statement. You are not currently a Overture/Yahoo Marketing customer. If you were, my post would have been a must read.

I must respond to your latest post, because it lacks knowledge and some on this board might think what you are saying is based in truth.

CPHOSTS: Hahaha, but actually we stopped paying Yahoo! for nearly 2 weeks now. But they still display our ad in the overture network as long as we don't close the account....I don't think there is anything wrong with Free Advertising, do you? Unless you want to pay them to display your ad for free Maybe that's why it says "Additional Listing"......

You must be very new to the internet or very inexperienced with Overture/Yahoo, "Additional Listing" is not a free ad or Free Advertising. After the paid listings, Overture displays the natural listings, which they call Additional Listings.

You're not getting a free lunch, in fact you are getting ripped off, Overture is selling your name and you are not profiting a dime. But, if you complain to Overture/Yahoo Marketing they will stop, they are real lucky that their advertisers have not started a class action suit for violating their terms of use.

CPHOSTS: And our blog was not slamming the president of the United States, it was showing the effect of Google Bombing, so get your facts straight or don't post at all

This I must apologize for, I am new to this board and did not realize that the statement by your name represented the last topic you had visited. But on your last statement, why are you giving advise on PPC Advertising, when your statements clearly indicate that you are completely in the dark and lack any true knowledge.

Jack