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On tracking terrorists and other unwanted individuals

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by Obamanation, Jun 11, 2013.

  1. gworld

    gworld Prominent Member

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    #141

    Haven´t you heard that King Bush declared the US Constitution is an irrelevant piece of paper and r3dtarget as a loyal subject of course obeys the king? Long live king Obama. ;):)
    SEMrush
     
    gworld, Jul 5, 2013 IP
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    SEMrush
  2. Corwin

    Corwin Well-Known Member

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    #142
    None of that is obvious. From the audio, I didn't hear any comments like that. I didn't see or hear the cops telling him to turn the music down. Cops get yelled at all the time - it sucks, and it's not fair, but these cops went really overboard.

    The police cuff the guy and the dog starts to bark. Did any of the cops have a sufficient IQ above room temperature to figure out in advance that the dog was going to become a problem? Were they able to see that the dog could ump out? Why didn't they ask the owner to restrain the dog first, as is proper police procedure? And when the dog jumped out, why didn't the police just back away from the owner so the dog would stay with him?

    A simple application of pepper spray would have handled the dog - and that is how police are trained to handle dogs.

    There is no doubt the guy being arrested was behaving like a jackass. But the police were not following proper procedure.

    BTW Zimmerman was ordered by the 911 police officer to stay in his car and do not approach. Zimmerman was clearly the provocateur

    Ah, how can this happen in Obama's America?
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2013
    Corwin, Jul 5, 2013 IP
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  3. r3dt@rget

    r3dt@rget Well-Known Member

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    #143
    I'm not going to respond directly to all of your points. This thread would expand exponentially and I have better things to do than type an essay every 3 hours on this story. I'm keeping it simple, and not going off in a million directions.

    I look at every situation differently. You must assume that since a person supports small government that they must resist any kind of authority and establishment. I guess that explains your distrust of the police in general. I am also a small government supporter, but I also know that there is still small in small government. I am defending the police because they have a side of the story as well, and to me, there is clear evidence in the video that their actions were justified. Apparently since I support the police in this situation I am now a liberal that wants the police to protect me. That is far from the truth. Im not here to defend the actions of police and government in other situations. I am here to defend the few cops I saw on this one video in this one situation.

    It seems most of the stuff we disagree about is due to your bias against police. Once again, I am arguing for this situation only. I don't really need to respond about cops spraying bullets into a womans car and not getting fired. It really doesn't matter in this dog story. How do the actions of other cops and other crooked corrupt departments relate to whether the cop had justification to shoot the dog in this case?

    The truth is, had a dog not been shot, this wouldn't even be news. No one would care. The only reason people care now is because of how sad the dog getting shot was.
     
    r3dt@rget, Jul 5, 2013 IP
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  4. r3dt@rget

    r3dt@rget Well-Known Member

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    #144
    So in that case the police have the authority to tell a citizen not to follow someone? And in that case you believe it's Zimmermans fault because he didn't obey the police? But in this case the police at an active crime scene don't have the authority to tell a guy that is obstructing justice to turn down his music and leave? You've got to be consistent. The provocateur in the dog story is the dog owner, so I really don't get your point.

    As for Zimmerman, it doesn't matter if he followed Martin. Didn't you hear the testimony from the lead investigator? When asked if following Martin against the police's advice was illegal, he simply said no there was no problem. The crime that the state has to prove is that Zimmerman shot Martin out of spite and without reason. To do that, they have to prove that Zimmerman's story about Martin attacking him is false. So far they haven't done that. It is still reasonable that once Zimmerman followed Martin, Martin then came up and started attacking him. At that point, if Zimmerman felt his life was in danger, he had the right to shoot Martin. The stuff before the fight doesn't really matter. If Martin started the fight, Zimmerman is innocent. If Zimmerman followed Martin and then attacked him, he is guilty.
     
    r3dt@rget, Jul 5, 2013 IP
  5. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #145
    This is the second post where you've implied I either have bias against police, or have had a bad experience with them. Neither is true. I have a healthy respect for and appreciation of the job of a law enforcement officer.

    Perhaps it would be more fair to say I have a bias police in the same way I have a bias against school teachers, fire fighters, politicians, and any other government employee, insofar as they are all union employees who do as little as possible for as much as possible, incompetence is never dealt with, and their greed, lobbying, and pensions are bankrupting my state. Perhaps in the case of the police in particular, considering the authority given to them, corruption and systemically bad policies are especially insidious, but as people, they are no different than you or I. I think of them as my employees, since my tax dollars pay their wages and their authority technically comes from me(and the rest of the citizens).




    Frankly, like Corwin, I don't see any of the peaceful requests you claim the police made in that video, and you have yet to point me at a video that has those requests. In consideration of that, it seems like you support the police in what I think many would consider an excessive use of force without a lot of logic behind how the greater good was served. Perhaps its wrong to couple that perception with your earlier support for government spying, but I think the two are related.

    Too many Republicans, in my opinion, march against big government in one moment, and prop up the surveillance/military state in the next. Its like saying you want to be thin and want to diet entirely on twinkies and ho-hos. You need to pick one because the two cannot co-exist.


    Its pretty simple really. You do what you want when there are no consequences, whether we are talking about corruption, filling a vehicle with bullets, beating a man to death, or shooting someone's dog. Its all abuse of power.




    True. Its like saying, "If the cops hadn't night been kicking Rodney King, there would have been no riots".
     
    Obamanation, Jul 5, 2013 IP
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  6. r3dt@rget

    r3dt@rget Well-Known Member

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    #146
    Here is a different angle. Video submitted by a witness that has come out in support of the officers. Clearly the dog lunges for the officers hand. The dog jumps toward him. Whether or not you believe gunshots were excessive force is one thing, but its clear that the officer was in danger from the dog. I don't really think death threats are a justified reaction to an officer defending himself. It's pretty sad that the mob mentality has taken over this situation. Same thing happened with gun control over sandy hook. The sadness of the situation clouds peoples judgement and they look for the easiest target to blame.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...ats-shooting-max-rottweiler-article-1.1390610
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2013
    r3dt@rget, Jul 6, 2013 IP
  7. Corwin

    Corwin Well-Known Member

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    #147
    YES and YES - that's the law.

    Just to be clear - I've seen police act like criminal assholes, and I've seen police resolve situations with the wisdom of Solomon. It's not the badge, it's the human behind the badge that's the issue.
     
    Corwin, Jul 6, 2013 IP
  8. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #148

    Yes, you can see the dog lunge at the officers hand after a period of time that would have allowed him to ready his pepper spray, tazer, or other non-lethal deterrent. If the police weren't smart enough to realize the dog would be a problem while arresting the owner, they are too dumb to be on the streets. Idiots really.

    I do appreciate the police releasing video of the police to exonerate the police for shooting the dog, in a wonderful display of presumption of innocence without an investigation, while the black guy awaits his trial to see how many charges can be leveled at him for having a loud mouth.

    At least he will have time to bury his dog and make public service announcements begging for calm on behalf of his captors in hopes of a lighter sentence. Its disgusting. His exhortation on video has all the heart felt genuine appeal of a western captive sitting in a camp filled with Islamists putting words in his mouth. If you want to see what he really thinks of Hawthorne police, watch the first part of the video where he is being mouthy and videotaping the cops, right before they shoot his dog. My guess is, had they not shot his dog, you could have given him a camera and 20 minutes of airtime and he would have articulated a long laundry list of reasons why he doesn't like the police. Even if he hates the police because they are white and he is black, he is entitled to be a racist in America. Not a crime.

    That is a fair assessment but in my opinion, at least in California, the problem is much bigger. Most of the officers in our Sherriffs departments spend their first years on the force working in prisons. It reinforces the "us vs them" view that many cops take, viewing citizens as criminals. Its what separates cops from civilians. Certain departments, LAPD in particular, seem very corrupt.
     
    Obamanation, Jul 6, 2013 IP
  9. r3dt@rget

    r3dt@rget Well-Known Member

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    #149
    If you believe it's Zimmermans fault because he chose not to obey police orders, why isn't it the dog owners fault because he did the same thing, not obey police orders?
     
    r3dt@rget, Jul 8, 2013 IP
  10. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #150
    Today's news:


    Those mouthy Mitchell's probably deserved what they got for failure to surrender their property to the police when requested. Pepper spray, arrest, obstruction of justice. Didn't they realize the police were dealing with a domestic violence issue occurring in someone else s private home? Domestic violence is a very serious issue, just like terrorism! Hell, they should have just named the Mitchells as terrorist co-conspirators like they did Jon Rosen when he "conspired" to take notes from a State Department official who mentioned the scandalous fact that N. Korea was being aggressive to it's neighbor.

    I suppose they should be thankful the police only pepper sprayed their dog and didn't just shoot it like normal. Yah, we have a problem.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2013
    Obamanation, Jul 9, 2013 IP
  11. Corwin

    Corwin Well-Known Member

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    #151
    The police never ordered the dog owner to secure his dog.

    Of course, in Zimmerman's case we have the 911 call to tell us he was told by the police to stay put.

    In the case of the dog, we have only the word of police who 1) completely disregarded police procedure and 2) multiple videos offer no evidence for any of the police officer's claims.

    And now... quartering policeman in civilian's homes?

    How can this happen in Obama's America?
     
    Corwin, Jul 9, 2013 IP
  12. gworld

    gworld Prominent Member

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    #152
    At the Home of the spied on, Land of the sissies, there is no constitutional rights. King Bush said so and King Obama has confirmed. Long live king Obama. :)
     
    gworld, Jul 9, 2013 IP
  13. r3dt@rget

    r3dt@rget Well-Known Member

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    #153
    This whole thread reminds me of Judge Judy. There are two sides to every story. I always like to hear both before jumping to conclusions. If the complaint is accurate I would be pretty pissed off being the homeowner.

    Oh and did anyone catch the news today about the IRS releasing social security numbers accidentally? Turns out, most of the SSN's released were of donors to political tax-exempt organizations! That means tea party groups and the like that were originally targeted by the same IRS. It seems that this "accident" is just another blow to the political enemies of the Obama admin.
     
    r3dt@rget, Jul 9, 2013 IP
  14. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #154
    Two sides to every story. Yah, I'm kind of nervous to hear what you think the other side of the story for the Henderson police could possibly be? Perhaps something like, "Hey, they were obstructing justice".

    If so, you should find this video of the Henderson police from two years ago to be hilarious. Here you will see how these fine patrolmen handle a suspected drunk driver (The man is actually not drunk at all, but in diabetic shock). For real laughter, roll forward to around :40 seconds in the video as 8 cops kick the crap out of a semi conscious diabetic shouting "Quit resisting M****r F**ker!!"



    In case you are wondering how the whole thing eventually played out, Mr. Greene suffered two broken ribs and now lives with blurred vision. The Henderson PD recently settled the law suit after two years, paying out less than 300k$ to Mr. Greene. No officers were fired, or even suspended or demoted.
     
    Obamanation, Jul 9, 2013 IP
  15. Rebecca

    Rebecca Prominent Member

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    #155
    I think it's just incompetence of the IRS in this particular case.

    And "political tax-exempt organizations" can include the right and left.


    The most dangerous risk for this man going in diabetic shock, was being stopped by the police.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2013
    Rebecca, Jul 9, 2013 IP
  16. gworld

    gworld Prominent Member

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    #156
    Microsoft collaborated with NSA and FBI to allow access to user data



    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/e...fbi-to-allow-access-to-user-data-8705755.html


    The revelations include that:
    • Microsoft helped the NSA to circumvent its encryption to address concerns that the agency would be unable to intercept web chats on the new Outlook.com portal;
    • The agency already had pre-encryption stage access to email on Outlook.com, including Hotmail;
    • The company worked with the FBI this year to allow the NSA easier access via Prism to its cloud storage service SkyDrive, which now has more than 250 million users worldwide;
    • Microsoft also worked with the FBI’s Data Intercept Unit to “understand” potential issues with a feature in Outlook.com that allows users to create email aliases;
    • Skype, which was bought by Microsoft in October 2011, worked with intelligence agencies last year to allow Prism to collect video of conversations as well as audio;
    http://www.salon.com/2013/07/11/snowden_docs_detail_collaboration_between_nsa_and_microsoft/


    The question is if Microsoft also provides a backdoor to their window operating system so it can be easily accessed remotely. Conspiracy theory? Maybe, but can you say for sure that it is not so.
     
    gworld, Jul 14, 2013 IP
  17. Corwin

    Corwin Well-Known Member

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    #157
    Meanwhile. Google granted the NSA similar access.
     
    Corwin, Jul 16, 2013 IP
  18. Obamanation

    Obamanation Well-Known Member

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    #158
    A DefCon without attendees from government/government contracting agencies would be a ghost town. Hacking tools "bought from the private sector"... what a joke. Call it what it is. Hacking tools developed under contract by private sector contractors who contract nearly exclusively to the Federal government.
     
    Obamanation, Aug 6, 2013 IP
  19. grpaul

    grpaul Well-Known Member

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    #159
    Wow, so you are all falling for the "Trayvon was such an innocent boy" crap that the left was throwing around. . . The 18 year old mari-j smoking / dealing angel boy..

    So, the police told him to stay away and Zimmerman decided to pursue. . Who in the hell cares?

    Why did that give Martin the right to do what he did and not Zimmerman?
     
    grpaul, Aug 9, 2013 IP
  20. Rebecca

    Rebecca Prominent Member

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    #160
    The police killed this man for vandalism. He was a graffiti artist.
     
    Rebecca, Aug 11, 2013 IP