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Oklahoma and the Manwhore DNA database

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by sarahk, Feb 15, 2017.

  1. #1
    So... I got into a row on twitter about the proposed Oklahoma legislation making abortion a joint decision.

    This is something I've talked about recently with my 17yo son who was disturbed that should he ever get a girlfriend (and have more in his life than yelling at people while online gaming) and they slipped up he'd have no official say.

    I'm all for men being involved in the decision making but how many young, single men do you know who have hooked up for the night and never shown any interest in the woman again. If she called up saying she was pregnant they're more likely to say "might not be mine" and head for the hills than to step up and say "how can I help".
    What if she was a prostitute?
    What if he needs to hide an infidelity?

    So this law assumes that every woman who gets caught out is depriving a man any involvement in the decision. In many cases, he'll know and will have had a say informally. In a great many more he is blissfully ignorant.

    So this law aims to destroy that blissful ignorance and to do so they're going to need a Manwhore DNA database.

    upload_2017-2-16_11-1-36.png

    I'm interested in your views on this
    SEMrush
     
    sarahk, Feb 15, 2017 IP
    SEMrush
  2. jrbiz

    jrbiz Illustrious Member

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    #2
    First I have heard of this law. Been to Oklahoma once...the people were annoyingly nice. Sometimes you just want to buy a pack of gum and not have a wonderfully friendly conversation with everyone in line and the cashier. :)

    Anyway, this law does not seem practical. What if the woman says, I don't know, it was some guy and I was drunk? The only successful paternity investigations are when the father is identified and a DNA test is ordered by a court for probable cause. If the woman is not of a mind to cooperate, it becomes impossible to see a path to implementation. I think that this law is intended to not outlaw abortion in Oklahoma (Supreme Court says abortions are legal nationwide) but to let people know that the welcome mat is not out there. If this law is a problem for anyone, they just have to drive to a neighboring state and that seems to be what they want to happen.
     
    jrbiz, Feb 15, 2017 IP
  3. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #3
    I'm definitely pro-life but while I was living in London I had a job as a drug rep visiting doctors and talking about UTI medication. I hated it! A few doctors stood out - the Indian woman who wanted to match-make me with her sons and nephews; the Orthodox Jew, complete with ringlets, who would chat about anything and everything but not UTI meds; and the elderly white abortionist in Willesden Green which was definitely not a white neighbourhood. As a NZer I'd never encountered an Orthodox Jew or a racially defined neighbourhood before arriving in London so it was all pretty mind blowing.

    The abortionist was lovely and we had some really good conversations that started with UTI meds and led to social issues in the area. He'd have women come in who had been beaten for getting pregnant, he'd do the abortion and tell them not to have sex for x weeks and they'd be back days later with a UTI and other post-op infections because they had no control over when they had sex. It's really easy, from my educated, middle class, white life to judge those girls and women for not standing up for themselves, for not leaving abusive relationships but the reality was that these women didn't feel empowered, they hadn't reaped the rewards of the feminists who had blazed a trail for them to follow and they didn't know how to break free.

    It became apparent pretty quickly that this old doctor was keeping his practice going so that he could help these women get the care they needed in their community. They didn't have the resources to travel across the city let alone to another city. When the shit hit the fan these women were on their own. The thought of the father from that world fronting up and allowing himself to be judged and scrutinised over his decision to consent to the abortion is laughable. How sad must it be when the best you can do for someone is to kill their unborn baby? But that was the life his patients were living and they were so lucky to have him because he was a kind and gentle man who treated them with respect.

    I don't know what life is like in Oklahoma but lets say there are neighbourhoods like Willesden Green there. What happens to those women who can't afford to travel to another state and their man tells them to take care of it but won't front up?
    • She waits until he beats her enough that she miscarries?
    • She gets a backstreet abortion?
    • She lies and says she was raped?
     
    sarahk, Feb 15, 2017 IP
  4. jrbiz

    jrbiz Illustrious Member

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    #4
    I am no advocate for the OK law, but, again, I see a loophole that you can drive a truck through: "I do not know who the father is. It was a one-night stand with a stranger and I have no way to contact him." How does the state prove otherwise?

    And if they still require a father's permission when he cannot be identified, a pro-abortion lawyer will be able to claim that they are effectively outlawing abortion for a certain group of people and the law likely will be struck down in federal court.

    That said, keep in mind that I believe that you generally have to pay out of your own pocket for abortions in this country (not covered by health insurance) and I expect that they are not cheap. So, if you can't come up with funds for a quick trip out of state, you probably do not have money for the procedure, either.
     
    jrbiz, Feb 16, 2017 IP
  5. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #5
    lets hope so

    and actually having the kid is such a cheap option too!
     
    sarahk, Feb 16, 2017 IP
  6. alwaysforGod

    alwaysforGod Active Member Premium Member

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    #6
    "Manwhore DNA Database" like, what?
    Also, why shouldn't the father be offered a chance to preserve the life of his unborn child? Pretty sure it takes two to tango so I don't think it should only take one to give the go (on aborting, also as known as killing, the baby). I'm sure that there is a provision for when the father cannot be properly located, however I am certain that the more common situation (than legitimately being unable to find the father) would be someone wanting to abort their baby without the consent of the other parent for unethical or otherwise negative reasons. And, without factual statistics for amount of truly disappeared fathers, I am willing to side with those few fathers who wanted their baby yet had no choice over people who want to relieve themselves of burden by eliminating someone else's chance to live.
     
    alwaysforGod, Apr 25, 2018 IP
  7. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #7
    You can side whichever way you choose. However, this thread is about the minefield if Oklahoma decides to go ahead with its law change.
     
    sarahk, Apr 25, 2018 IP
  8. alwaysforGod

    alwaysforGod Active Member Premium Member

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    #8
    So you think it is ok to make huge decisions about a child using only one parent's opinion?
    This thread is also very unprofessional, by the way, aren't you supposed to be representing DigitalPoint?
     
    alwaysforGod, Apr 25, 2018 IP
  9. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #9
    No, but then I have a big problem with sperm donors who don't check what the recipient's attitude to an unplanned pregnancy is prior to sex. The culture of "no strings sex" that is perpetuated by Tinder and dating apps means that there are a great many men who don't give a damn about any unborn children. For every man who is cheated out of parenthood, you'll find another who feels resentful that he has to pay child support and can't legally opt out of his responsibility.

    If you really want to make this a two-person decision then there has to be a way of definitively identifying the father and gaining his consent. Tell me how you think that can be done?

    Obviously, the easiest solution is for men to be a whole lot more careful about where they let their sperm wander but, throughout history, men have been rewarded for "sowing their wild oats" and turning around that culture might take a few hundred years.
    Feel free to take that up with Shawn, quite happy for him to sack me.

    From the posts you've made today you clearly have a problem with me. Lets take that into a private conversation, or you can just block me.
     
    sarahk, Apr 25, 2018 IP
  10. alwaysforGod

    alwaysforGod Active Member Premium Member

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    #10
    ^ As I said, I'm certain there is something in place to protect against fathers who legitimately can't be found, although it sounds like you are tending towards it being a decision solely for the mother; so basically saying a baby's abortion hinges on whether or not the man was notified of pregnancy, because how else would he know in a situation where, for instance, the woman felt she couldn't be bothered to have a baby just because it was an accidental occurrence or was with someone she didn't want to be with.
    As in, if he wanted a baby, but she didn't, and she just simply decided not to notify him that she was pregnant, and goes off and has an abortion because she didn't need the father's permission, that doesn't violate his personal rights more than it would violate hers to prove she didn't know who the father was? The former situation is simply a matter of privacy, the latter is a matter of life, limb, and family.

    Again, you are very unprofessional and seem to make broad, generalized statements without any real factual or statistical information to back them that are not only assumptive, but in a lot of ways offensive and seemingly from a malicious, detached (personal?) standpoint.

    This is not the kind of thing I think members want to hear from someone who is 'staff', and I feel like this sort of attitude honestly devalues those of us who contribute to DigitalPoint, both monetarily and with our time, from the point of view that it is a quality, well-respected, and properly staffed place of business.

    I was simply late-night forum cruising, and the threads traveled happened to have you on them making a lot of declarations so I felt it was my moral duty to provide contradiction and bring proper questions for, especially seeing as how they were being declared from a staffer's account. If you wish to discuss more via PM, all is fine with me, but as for these threads don't expect ghostly silence when you are screaming biased and inappropriate opinions without factual backing.
     
    alwaysforGod, Apr 25, 2018 IP
  11. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #11
    I was referring to how you guarantee that you have the right man come forward. Let's say a woman gets pregnant, can't work out which Tinder date it might have been so she asks a male friend and he fronts up as the father. Later on, she bumps into one of those Tinder dates and mentions the abortion. How does the man get redress for his loss? or even prove it was his?

    I like the idea that the decision should be a joint one but ultimately the decision has to err on allowing the woman to discontinue the pregnancy. Human history is littered with what happens when safe, legal abortion isn't available and I doubt any civilised country wants to go back to the world of backyard abortions and coat hangers.

    The is the politics and religion section of an Internet Marketing forum. Enter this section at your peril.
    Really, you must be awfully busy if you're pushing your moral viewpoint on every forum on the internet.

    upload_2018-4-26_14-57-40.png
    How does your moral duty to judge people fit in with this?
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
    sarahk, Apr 25, 2018 IP
  12. alwaysforGod

    alwaysforGod Active Member Premium Member

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    #12
    Requesting someone back up their statements is not judging, that is proper forum format, "enter at your own risk."
    And why does it "have to fall on allowing the woman to discontinue the pregnancy" since it is not her life that is being ended? That is a very self-centered viewpoint, and one that many people are happy (and the world is fortunate for) their parents chose not to "discontinue their pregnancy" since many of the world's most premier contributions have been derived from people who did not come from the most ideal circumstances.

    Maybe these things are difficult for one whose mind is grounded in the human way? It is not matter you or my beliefs,
    "For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength."
    1 Corinthians 1:25

    But i will help where I can, and am bound to guide those who seem to have a skewed view, or who wish to skew others
    "For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline."
    2 Timothy 1:7

    And glad you wanted to make it personal with the tweet lol, but I've nothing to hide!
    "In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted."
    2 Timothy 3:12

    And even though I could use the core law of
    “You shall not murder.
    Exodus 20:13

    I know that we have been offered forgiveness for all sins, so it is more important (and in this case relevant, even) to say
    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."
    Matthew 7:12
    And with that in mind, would you want to be a child whose life was taken, or a father who lost his child in such a way?
    Even with the option of a woman alone to raise a child, is not this preferable to those two possibilities?

    I also find the verse you selected to be funny, because doesn't it discuss not judging to avoid judgement?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2018
    alwaysforGod, Apr 25, 2018 IP
  13. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #13
    You assume Christianity is the default religion here, I guess.
    Not all of us allow our lives to be dictated by people who lived 2000 years ago.
     
    sarahk, Apr 25, 2018 IP
  14. alwaysforGod

    alwaysforGod Active Member Premium Member

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    #14
    Nothing about timeless, immutable truths implies any sort of assumption of religion; nor does truth require you to be willingly subservient to its ideals for it to be what it is: true.
     
    alwaysforGod, Apr 26, 2018 IP
  15. Barti1987

    Barti1987 Well-Known Member

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    #15
    What does being a moderator on the forum have to do with anything. If she is doing something against the forum rules (which I assume you read), then hit the report along with an explanation and it will get routed.

    Moderators, like any other members have the right to say their mind regardless. Their opinions does not represent DigitalPoint (unless specified) like any other business.


    As a Muslim I agree. We always need to keep up with the trends. Islam is 700 younger, that is what should be the default religion. /sarcasm

    As for your main points Sarahk, here is my take: Both people who are responsible for making the baby should have 50/50 decision. If the father wants to keep it and the mother doesn't, he can compensate her for her trouble financially. If the mother want it and the father doesn't, then she should not expect child support.

    As a Muslim, that decision has certain limitations (time restraint). I will not discuss my views on abortion, as it wasn't the main topic. So we keep on the OP main points. If you are constantly having sex you should always keep it a habit to check for pregnancies.
     
    Barti1987, Apr 26, 2018 IP
  16. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #16
    I agree with that wholeheartedly, however reality is often not as considered and careful as it should be. I think we're in agreement about what should happen - the difference comes when you look at writing that into a law that has to be fair and just for every scenario. If you mandate that the father must be in agreement you need to have safeguards in place to ensure that the right man is notified in a timely manner. I suspect men might find those safeguards troublesome.
     
    sarahk, Apr 26, 2018 IP