1. Advertising
    y u no do it?

    Advertising (learn more)

    Advertise virtually anything here, with CPM banner ads, CPM email ads and CPC contextual links. You can target relevant areas of the site and show ads based on geographical location of the user if you wish.

    Starts at just $1 per CPM or $0.10 per CPC.

Obama's Health Care Fascism

Discussion in 'Politics & Religion' started by BRUm, May 20, 2009.

  1. #1
    Interesting article. Penny for your thoughts?SEMrush
     
    BRUm, May 20, 2009 IP
    SEMrush
  2. stOx

    stOx Notable Member

    Messages:
    6,426
    Likes Received:
    130
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    230
    #2
    pure fantasy.
     
    stOx, May 20, 2009 IP
  3. northpointaiki

    northpointaiki Guest

    Messages:
    6,876
    Likes Received:
    187
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #3
    I'd say there might be a valid point or two buried underneath an avalanche of paranoid lunacy, which is Lyndon LaRouche's stock in trade. Don't know if you're familiar with him, Brum, but LaRouche has been the political gadfly of the scene for as long as I can remember - going back to childhood, the lunatics ranting on street corners. Odd, too, that the man is calling it "nazism" when he himself, in my book, has some of the tendencies, to include a fascist denunciation of "Jew-run" states in the west (going so far as to call the Norman conquest of England nothing more than a Jew conspiracy that has plagued good, "Christian" - read, Anglo-Saxon - England ever since). Just a sampling:

    He's a loon, and the above is just the perversion of truth, by his fractured prism.
     
    northpointaiki, May 20, 2009 IP
  4. BRUm

    BRUm Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,086
    Likes Received:
    61
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    100
    #4
    Cheers to whoever left the negative rep. for posting an article I found and asking what people thought.

    Stox, what do you mean?

    Northpointaiki, I'm unfamiliar with LaRouche. I think I'll read up on him.
     
    BRUm, May 20, 2009 IP
  5. stOx

    stOx Notable Member

    Messages:
    6,426
    Likes Received:
    130
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    230
    #5
    The amount of comparisons to hitler and the nazis should render his opinion on anything irrelivant.

    "Obama wants to save money on government programs, SO DID HITLER!!!!! OBAMA IS HITLER!!!!"
     
    stOx, May 20, 2009 IP
    Mia likes this.
  6. BRUm

    BRUm Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,086
    Likes Received:
    61
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    100
    #6
    Yeah.. I did think it was a bit 'brow raising'.
     
    BRUm, May 20, 2009 IP
  7. amanamission

    amanamission Notable Member

    Messages:
    1,936
    Likes Received:
    138
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    210
    #7
    First he was Socialist, now he's a Nazi/Fascist?!!
    The slurs come from every direction, but this should demonstrate their collective fallacy.
    Obama is a left-leaning moderate. Just as he claims.
    Any similarities to Nazi policy are pure coincidence and the comparison is stupid as well as offensive. The Nazi "health care" plan included painful and deadly experiments performed on ethnically selected victims.
     
    amanamission, May 20, 2009 IP
  8. BRUm

    BRUm Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,086
    Likes Received:
    61
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    100
    #8
    Just as a note, I'd like to point out that Socialism, Nazism and Fascism aren't too dissimilar. Especially considering that the Nazi Party's name was: National Socialist German Workers' Party, and it was every bit Socialist as its economics were heavily nationalised.
     
    BRUm, May 21, 2009 IP
  9. stOx

    stOx Notable Member

    Messages:
    6,426
    Likes Received:
    130
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    230
    #9
    Isn't that a bit like saying "my coffee mug isn't too dissimilar to the sky" on the grounds that both are blue?

    Unless the nazis abandoned all political models there were always going to be comparisons to others modes of government, The amount of differences between socialism and nazism render any similarities insignificant.

    and pointing to their name to suggest something isn't particularly relevant. What did you think they were going to call themselves? "the German Jew killing party"?
     
    stOx, May 21, 2009 IP
  10. BRUm

    BRUm Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,086
    Likes Received:
    61
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    100
    #10
    No, it's not. As I pointed out, Nazism uses an extreme centralist and nationalised economic model, similar to socialism. Its ideology emphasises the interests of 'workers' and 'the common man' managed via a somewhat planned economy, which is the focal point of Socialism.

    It is relevant as Hitler himself is quoted condemning Capitalism. You're referring to social policies there, that's irrelevant, as I was discussing economic policy - Social Darwinism is moot.
     
    BRUm, May 21, 2009 IP
  11. northpointaiki

    northpointaiki Guest

    Messages:
    6,876
    Likes Received:
    187
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #11
    There was a very thin socialist element to early nazi thinking, stretching back to its earliest roots - a kind of virulently anti-semitic, nationalist, classless ideal stemming from latter 19th-century thought. But the very notion of nationalism is squarely at odds with what we know of as true "socialism," having a universalist call to arms (even "socialism in one country first" theories eventually call for a socialist, global movement). That, combined with nazism's utter stomping of all labor association in Germany, and its collusion with heavy capital means that the regime was anything but "socialist" in its outlook.

    In truth, nazism saw its rise on the back of bourgeois sentiment. The nature of political economic development in Germany, at the inception of industrialization, meant that much of the "thunder" of working class movements - suffrage, working conditions, retirement security - were actually coopted by the authoritarian regime under Bismarck, and by the time WWI swung around, while there was as a result of the pre-war development a pretty well defined social cleavage along economic lines, the ability of labor to effect fundamental reform was heavily munched upon by earlier developments.

    In truth, Nazism rose as a mass movement, with heavy rural lower-middle class and urban bourgeois support. Unlike in the Nordic social democracies, which were truly socialist in outlook and strongly supported by a mobilized, fairly cohesive urban working class.

    Edit: Just saw this. Hitler condemned, or praised, a lot of things, depending on who he was talking to. While he was touting his "socialism" before labor, he was sitting down to dine on silver with heavy capital - e.g., Krupps and the rest.

    Basically, a mass movement of the middle class, in concert with rural elites; with corporatist structure, subverting workers' associations into engines of state will, and Heavy Capital funding, and benefiting from, state initiatives. There really isn't anything socialist about any of this.
     
    northpointaiki, May 21, 2009 IP
  12. BRUm

    BRUm Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,086
    Likes Received:
    61
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    100
    #12
    Northpointaiki, Socialism is an economic model. It's not at odds with its social policy of nationalism, because they're separate paradigms.

    Classical Socialism advocates a class struggle and Nazism very much takes this on board with its hatred of the elite, the rich and the bankers - which were often demonised as Jews.

    Anyway, it's characteristic for Socialism to contradict other elements of a group's ideology:

    It appears that it's only the means by which Socialism is attempted to be implemented that incorporates Social policy - almost being an economic theory and quasi-social theory.
     
    BRUm, May 21, 2009 IP
  13. stOx

    stOx Notable Member

    Messages:
    6,426
    Likes Received:
    130
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    230
    #13
    Of course they had socialist elements. They had to get elected at a time of financial hardship. But the differences render the similarities insignificant.

    Oh so it was just a coincidence that you picked a fascist organisation that committed acts of genocide to use in your comparison? Pull the other one Brum, You picked the nazis for your comparison specifically because of the connotations. You wanted to highlight a small part of the nazi manifesto, compare it with the socialist model and hope people walking away thinking socialists are nazis.
     
    stOx, May 21, 2009 IP
  14. BRUm

    BRUm Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,086
    Likes Received:
    61
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    100
    #14
    What? You need to chill out man, seriously. Economically, I believe Nazism is Socialist more than anything, that's all I said, that's all I meant.

    I really did not pick anything for the connotations. I think you're just being way too sensitive. I'm mature enough to discuss 'organisations' - which have committed abhorrent acts - without having an agenda or splashing my emotions everywhere like you clearly have.

    And no, I don't think Socialists are Nazis, I think they hijacked the model because it naturally provides control as I pointed out above. So chill the fuck out.
     
    BRUm, May 21, 2009 IP
    guerilla likes this.
  15. northpointaiki

    northpointaiki Guest

    Messages:
    6,876
    Likes Received:
    187
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #15
    I'd have to disagree, Brum. Socialism is a political-economic model, which very much has to do with the nature of social structure in society; and classical "socialism," at least by any useful definition, is a universalist vision.

    Again, if you'd want to say Hitler's regime was "socialist," you'd have to look at its structure. And as it was a middle-class mass movement, and not a proletarian one; as it utterly destroyed any attempts of a true labor movement; as it heavily aligned with heavy capital (and rural elite) interests, there really isn't any way to call it "socialist," despite its name. In fact, the closest to "socialist" it came was through Ernst Rohm and his dream for the SA - and it was Rohm's/the SA's alignment with workers' strikes (more thuggery out of pent-up freikorps friskiness than a real, studied, theoretical agitation), etc., that contributed to his downfall.

    Hitler didn't want any of it in his party, and nazism, as it flowered, had nothing "socialist" in its program - in fact, it sought to decidedly destroy socialism as a living movement, forevermore.

    If you're curious, a book by my late Prof. is a good read: Liberalism, Fascism, or Social Democracy, by Greg Luebbert. I think the page I linked to, the first paragraph, says it well - "fascism" is discussed beginning on p. 272.
     
    northpointaiki, May 21, 2009 IP
    guerilla likes this.
  16. BRUm

    BRUm Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,086
    Likes Received:
    61
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    100
    #16
    Interesting. Thanks for the info. mate, I'll be sure to check that out.
     
    BRUm, May 21, 2009 IP
    Mia likes this.
  17. stOx

    stOx Notable Member

    Messages:
    6,426
    Likes Received:
    130
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    230
    #17
    'cmon Brum you clearly compared socialism to "nazism and fascism". Not to the economic models employed by them, to the actual nazi and fascist movements themselves, because you wanted to smear socialism.

    Socialism isn't to dissimilar to nazism in the same way that you aren't too dissimilar to Hitler, you know, in the way that you both wear socks. I'm sure you would disagree with that comparison, and rightly so, even though the small area we are using for the comparison is factually accurate.
     
    stOx, May 21, 2009 IP
  18. BRUm

    BRUm Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,086
    Likes Received:
    61
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    100
    #18
    I'm sure others would agree you're attempting to put words in my mouth. I don't know why because you've been civil with me in the past. You can say it all day long mate, but you're wrong: not once did the thought cross my mind to 'smear' Socialism. I think you've misunderstood my posts, because I've clearly been addressing it as an economic model and theory and have engaged in such a discussion with Northpointaiki.

    You're the one making the big deal out of it and besides, Socialism does plenty on its own to appear bad, it needs no help from me. I have no interest in bashing other peoples' beliefs.

    Go and be silly somewhere else other than in my thread please. It's clear I seem to have hit a nerve discussing an ideology close to your heart.
     
    BRUm, May 21, 2009 IP
  19. stOx

    stOx Notable Member

    Messages:
    6,426
    Likes Received:
    130
    Best Answers:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    230
    #19
    saying socialism isn't too dissimilar to nazism isn't a smear?

    You start of by posting an article which compares Obama to hitler in practically every sentence on the grounds that he wants to cut costs on federal programs, then you draw the comparison between socialism and nazism and we are expected to believe you when you claim it's not a smear campaign? pull the other one brum.

    I thought you were above this appeal to emotion crap.
     
    stOx, May 21, 2009 IP
  20. BRUm

    BRUm Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,086
    Likes Received:
    61
    Best Answers:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    100
    #20
    I'm sure others would agree you're attempting to put words in my mouth. I don't know why because you've been civil with me in the past. You can say it all day long mate, but you're wrong: not once did the thought cross my mind to 'smear' Socialism. I think you've misunderstood my posts, because I've clearly been addressing it as an economic model and theory and have engaged in such a discussion with Northpointaiki.

    You're the one making the big deal out of it and besides, Socialism does plenty on its own to appear bad, it needs no help from me. I have no interest in bashing other peoples' beliefs.

    Go and be silly somewhere else other than in my thread please. It's clear I seem to have hit a nerve discussing an ideology close to your heart.
     
    BRUm, May 21, 2009 IP