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Need your professional feedback

Discussion in 'Websites' started by WWWAnna, Aug 13, 2020.

  1. #1
    Hi guys! I signed up here to ask you for feedback. I've just designed my first "serious" site for a startup https://bridgeteams.com/ and it would be really awesome to know what you think. My experience is not that huge: three months ago I finished web courses and this is my first commercial project. I was said, it's too much animation on my site but I don't know which one I should get rid of. Anyway, what do you think? Thank you all so much in advance!!
    SEMrush
     
    WWWAnna, Aug 13, 2020 IP
    SEMrush
  2. kk5st

    kk5st Prominent Member

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    #2
    I'd say lose them all. By the time the second image did its growing thing, I was already annoyed. Ask yourself, "How does this help the potential customer?" Ask the same question about every (stock?) image on the page. One mood setting generic image should be more than sufficient.

    Also, your site is not responsive, or at least whatever breakpoints you have (no, I did not look at the source) are likely arbitrarily chosen. Breakpoints must be selected according to the layout; not by imagined screen sizes.

    gary
     
    kk5st, Aug 13, 2020 IP
  3. sarahk

    sarahk iTamer Staff

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    #3
    I didn't mind them too much but it is a bit of "look mum, I learnt something".
    I went to https://bridgeteams.com/product/ and felt it was unnecessary on an inner page and doubly unnecessary when I've already scrolled down the page once.

    I just looked in mobile, ugh, that's bad.

    omg I can't wait until @deathshadow sees this HTML. @WWWAnna his review is going to be harsh, and he hates WordPress but this site is an example of how to do WordPress really really badly. You probably don't have the time or authority to change the way the site is constructed - but you do have the authority to make sure the template isn't a total shitshow. Your challenge is to clean it up before he comes online!
    <section class="elementor-element elementor-element-85bc8cc elementor-section-full_width home-hero-section elementor-section-height-default elementor-section-height-default elementor-section elementor-top-section" data-id="85bc8cc" data-element_type="section">
    <div class="elementor-container elementor-column-gap-default">
    <div class="elementor-row">
    <div class="elementor-element elementor-element-9d648ea elementor-column elementor-col-100 elementor-top-column" data-id="9d648ea" data-element_type="column" data-settings="{&quot;background_background&quot;:&quot;classic&quot;}">
    <div class="elementor-column-wrap  elementor-element-populated">
    <div class="elementor-widget-wrap"> <section class="elementor-element elementor-element-1590e41 elementor-section-boxed elementor-section-height-default elementor-section-height-default elementor-section elementor-inner-section" data-id="1590e41" data-element_type="section" data-settings="{&quot;background_background&quot;:&quot;classic&quot;}">
    <div class="elementor-container elementor-column-gap-default">
    <div class="elementor-row">
    <div class="elementor-element elementor-element-3ffdb36 elementor-column elementor-col-50 elementor-inner-column" data-id="3ffdb36" data-element_type="column">
    <div class="elementor-column-wrap  elementor-element-populated"><div class="elementor-widget-wrap">
    <div class="elementor-element elementor-element-80228cb product-title-block animated-slow elementor-widget-mobile__width-initial elementor-widget__width-initial elementor-widget-tablet__width-inherit elementor-widget elementor-widget-heading animated fadeIn" data-id="80228cb" data-element_type="widget" data-settings="{&quot;_animation&quot;:&quot;fadeIn&quot;}" data-widget_type="heading.default"><div class="elementor-widget-container">
    <h2 class="elementor-heading-title elementor-size-default">Your gateway into global expansion</h2></div></div>
    <div class="elementor-element elementor-element-8adf290 elementor-widget__width-initial elementor-widget-tablet__width-initial elementor-widget elementor-widget-text-editor animated fadeIn" data-id="8adf290" data-element_type="widget" data-settings="{&quot;_animation&quot;:&quot;fadeIn&quot;,&quot;_animation_delay&quot;:300}" data-widget_type="text-editor.default">
    <div class="elementor-widget-container">
    <div class="elementor-text-editor elementor-clearfix"><p>All services to manage your global operations and one platform to rule them all.</p></div></div></div>
    <div class="elementor-element elementor-element-754ce60 elementor-widget elementor-widget-spacer" data-id="754ce60" data-element_type="widget" data-widget_type="spacer.default">
    <div class="elementor-widget-container">
    <div class="elementor-spacer">
    <div class="elementor-spacer-inner"></div></div></div></div>
    <div class="elementor-element elementor-element-983e1d2 elementor-widget__width-initial btn-primary-block btn-product-contact-sales animated-fast elementor-widget-mobile__width-inherit elementor-widget elementor-widget-button animated fadeIn" data-id="983e1d2" data-element_type="widget" data-settings="{&quot;_animation&quot;:&quot;fadeIn&quot;,&quot;_animation_delay&quot;:400}" data-widget_type="button.default">
    <div class="elementor-widget-container">
    <div class="elementor-button-wrapper"> <a href="/contact-us/" class="elementor-button-link elementor-button elementor-size-sm" role="button"> <span class="elementor-button-content-wrapper"> <span class="elementor-button-text">Contact Sales</span> </span> </a></div></div></div></div></div></div>
    <div class="elementor-element elementor-element-4b0050c product-hero-image-block elementor-column elementor-col-50 elementor-inner-column" data-id="4b0050c" data-element_type="column">
    <div class="elementor-column-wrap  elementor-element-populated">
    <div class="elementor-widget-wrap">
    <div class="elementor-element elementor-element-802ebf0 elementor-widget__width-initial elementor-widget-tablet__width-initial elementor-widget-mobile__width-initial mk-retina-ready elementor-widget elementor-widget-image" data-id="802ebf0" data-element_type="widget" data-widget_type="image.default">
    <div class="elementor-widget-container"><div class="elementor-image"> <img width="470" height="571" src="https://bridgeteams.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/product-hero-device470w-min.png" class="attachment-full size-full" alt="" srcset="https://bridgeteams.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/product-hero-device470w-min.png 470w, https://bridgeteams.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/product-hero-device470w-min-247x300.png 247w" sizes="(max-width: 470px) 100vw, 470px"></div></div></div><div class="elementor-element elementor-element-7d0dafc product-hero-cloud-rec mk-retina-ready elementor-widget__width-auto elementor-absolute elementor-widget elementor-widget-image" data-id="7d0dafc" data-element_type="widget" data-settings="{&quot;_animation&quot;:&quot;none&quot;,&quot;_position&quot;:&quot;absolute&quot;}" data-widget_type="image.default">
    <div class="elementor-widget-container">
    <div class="elementor-image"> <img width="237" height="171" src="https://bridgeteams.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/rec-cloud.png" class="attachment-full size-full" alt=""></div></div></div>
    <div class="elementor-element elementor-element-d4160bd product-hero-cloud-em mk-retina-ready elementor-widget__width-auto elementor-absolute elementor-widget elementor-widget-image" data-id="d4160bd" data-element_type="widget" data-settings="{&quot;_position&quot;:&quot;absolute&quot;}" data-widget_type="image.default">
    <div class="elementor-widget-container">
    <div class="elementor-image"> <img width="162" height="126" src="https://bridgeteams.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/equipment-management.png" class="attachment-full size-full" alt=""></div></div></div>
    <div class="elementor-element elementor-element-cbc4650 product-hero-cloud-acc mk-retina-ready elementor-widget__width-auto elementor-absolute elementor-widget elementor-widget-image" data-id="cbc4650" data-element_type="widget" data-settings="{&quot;_position&quot;:&quot;absolute&quot;}" data-widget_type="image.default">
    <div class="elementor-widget-container">
    <div class="elementor-image"> <img width="198" height="151" src="https://bridgeteams.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/accounting.png" class="attachment-full size-full" alt=""></div></div></div>
    <div class="elementor-element elementor-element-518fb73 product-hero-cloud-peo mk-retina-ready elementor-widget__width-auto elementor-absolute elementor-widget elementor-widget-image" data-id="518fb73" data-element_type="widget" data-settings="{&quot;_position&quot;:&quot;absolute&quot;}" data-widget_type="image.default">
    <div class="elementor-widget-container"><div class="elementor-image"> <img width="168" height="92" src="https://bridgeteams.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/peo.png" class="attachment-large size-large" alt=""></div></div></div>
    <div class="elementor-element elementor-element-04ebfcf product-hero-cloud-om mk-retina-ready elementor-widget__width-auto elementor-absolute elementor-widget elementor-widget-image" data-id="04ebfcf" data-element_type="widget" data-settings="{&quot;_position&quot;:&quot;absolute&quot;}" data-widget_type="image.default">
    <div class="elementor-widget-container">
    <div class="elementor-image"> <img width="265" height="165" src="https://bridgeteams.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/office-management.png" class="attachment-full size-full" alt="">
    </div>
    </div>
    </div>
    </div>
    </div>
    </div>
    </div>
    </div> 
    </section>
    </div>
    </div>
    </div>
    </div>
    </div> 
    </section>
    HTML:
     
    sarahk, Aug 13, 2020 IP
    mmerlinn, Saputnik and kk5st like this.
  4. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #4
    I'm so tired of seeing startups being suckered by this bullshit. Be thankful that's not for an industry that is legally required to meet accessibility minimums.

    The good is that the layout concept and choice of colours is not in violation of accessibility norms. Unfortunately that's all that can be said good about it. The use of a PX font declaration on body utterly f***'s any chance at accessibility, on normal devices the 20px default resulting in everything being a fist in the face on "normal" displays, Looking acceptable on devices set to large/20px by default, and being uselessly tiny on devices set to higher settings like my media center (set to 32px/200%)

    Good tip? Anyone telling you it's ok to declare font-sizes in PX? Kick 'em in the groin and run. There's NOTHING you can learn from them. The correct metric is EM, use 'em!

    The visual issues are a minor nothing though compared to the agonizing load time and utterly broken non-visual accessibility. There's nothing remotely resembling semantics, but that's entirely to be expected from the HALFWITTED IDIOTIC SCAM ARTIST BULL that is "elementor".

    Let me put it this way:

    Wordpress -- in and of itself -- is a disaster you can learn nothing about actually building websites for business from. Anyone telling you that Wordpress is "good for business" is probably trying to sell you something, or is so utterly ignorant of the topic they need to be served a quadruple helping of Sierra Tango Foxtrot Uniform. There's a reason many -- myself included -- call it Turdpress; because that's about all it's good for squeezing out.

    @sarahk's claim that you can build good websites with it is pure fiction and little more than lame excuses. I've only seen it done once, and the author of said site neutered the upgrade path (so opened an even bigger security risk) and died about a month later. He's something of a legend 'round these parts. To the point one of his posts about SEO from 2007 is still a sticky on these forums and STILL mostly relevant today.

    Elementor takes all the things that make front-end frameworks a monument to ignorance, incompetence, and ineptitude (see link in my signature), tosses them in a blender with everything that makes WYSIWYG's the fast road to broken inaccessible websites, and slops the mix of piss and vinegar atop the shit-show that is turdpress.

    Which is why for your homepage alone -- consisting of 2.47k of plaintext and four content media (images) it is vomiting up 202k of HTML. That's not even 8k of HTML's flipping job! That's over 21 times the markup needed to do the job. Which means the server has to work at least a dozen times harder. Which means the BROWSER has to work a dozen times harder. It's not even about the bandwidth at that point, it's about having made the most painful, convoluted, and difficult to work with codebase!

    You can tell what utter shite it is from this:

    
    <body
        itemtype="https://schema.org/WebPage"
        itemscope="itemscope"
        class="home page-template-default page page-id-22 ast-desktop ast-page-builder-template ast-no-sidebar astra-2.1.4 ast-header-custom-item-inside group-blog ast-single-post ast-inherit-site-logo-transparent elementor-default elementor-page elementor-page-22"
    >
        <div>
            <!-- Global site tag (gtag.js) - Google Analytics -->
            <script async src="https://www.googletagmanager.com/gtag/js?id=UA-155961675-1"></script>
            <script>
                window.dataLayer = window.dataLayer || [];
                function gtag() {
                    dataLayer.push(arguments);
                }
                gtag("js", new Date());
    
                gtag("config", "UA-155961675-1");
            </script>
        </div>
        <div class="hfeed site" id="page">
            <a class="skip-link screen-reader-text" href="#content">Skip to content</a>
            <div class="ekit-template-content-markup ekit-template-content-header">
                <div data-elementor-type="wp-post" data-elementor-id="5" class="elementor elementor-5" data-elementor-settings="[]">
                    <div class="elementor-inner">
                        <div class="elementor-section-wrap">
                            <header
                                class="elementor-element elementor-element-9b3f96b elementor-section-full_width elementor-section-height-min-height elementor-section-content-middle elementor-section-height-default elementor-section-items-middle elementor-section elementor-top-section"
                                data-id="9b3f96b"
                                data-element_type="section"
                                data-settings='{"background_background":"classic"}'
                            >
                                <div class="elementor-container elementor-column-gap-default">
                                    <div class="elementor-row">
                                        <div class="elementor-element elementor-element-97b1aff elementor-column elementor-col-100 elementor-top-column" data-id="97b1aff" data-element_type="column">
                                            <div class="elementor-column-wrap elementor-element-populated">
                                                <div class="elementor-widget-wrap">
                                                    <div
                                                        class="elementor-element elementor-element-6d711ac elementor-section-content-middle left-header-block elementor-section-full_width elementor-section-height-default elementor-section-height-default elementor-section elementor-inner-section"
                                                        data-id="6d711ac"
                                                        data-element_type="section"
                                                    >
                                                        <div class="elementor-container elementor-column-gap-default">
                                                            <div class="elementor-row">
                                                                <div class="elementor-element elementor-element-90e808d header-logo-col elementor-column elementor-col-50 elementor-inner-column" data-id="90e808d" data-element_type="column">
                                                                    <div class="elementor-column-wrap elementor-element-populated">
                                                                        <div class="elementor-widget-wrap">
                                                                            <div
                                                                                class="elementor-element elementor-element-e6ab475 elementor-widget__width-initial elementor-widget elementor-widget-image"
                                                                                data-id="e6ab475"
                                                                                data-element_type="widget"
                                                                                data-widget_type="image.default"
                                                                            >
                                                                                <div class="elementor-widget-container">
                                                                                    <div class="elementor-image">
                                                                                        <a data-elementor-open-lightbox="" href="/">
                                                                                            <img src="https://bridgeteams.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/logo.svg" class="attachment-full size-full" alt="" />
                                                                                        </a>
                                                                                    </div>
                                                                                </div>
                                                                            </div>
                                                                        </div>
                                                                    </div>
                                                                </div>
                                                                <div class="elementor-element elementor-element-aba08ed header-left-menu-col elementor-column elementor-col-50 elementor-inner-column" data-id="aba08ed" data-element_type="column">
                                                                    <div class="elementor-column-wrap elementor-element-populated">
                                                                        <div class="elementor-widget-wrap">
                                                                            <div
                                                                                class="elementor-element elementor-element-29a2162 elementor-widget elementor-widget-ekit-nav-menu"
                                                                                data-id="29a2162"
                                                                                data-element_type="widget"
                                                                                data-widget_type="ekit-nav-menu.default"
                                                                            >
                                                                                <div class="elementor-widget-container">
                                                                                    <div class="ekit-wid-con">
                                                                                        <div
                                                                                            id="ekit-megamenu-full-menu"
                                                                                            class="elementskit-menu-container elementskit-menu-offcanvas-elements elementskit-navbar-nav-default elementskit_line_arrow ekit-nav-menu-one-page-"
                                                                                        >
                                                                                            <ul id="main-menu" class="elementskit-navbar-nav elementskit-menu-po-right">
                                                                                                <li id="menu-item-79" class="menu-item menu-item-type-post_type menu-item-object-page menu-item-79 nav-item elementskit-mobile-builder-content">
                                                                                                    <a href="https://bridgeteams.com/how-it-works/" class="ekit-menu-nav-link">How it works</a>
                                                                                                </li>
                                                                                            </ul>
                                                                                        </div>
                                                                                    </div>
                                                                                </div>
                                                                            </div>
                                                                        </div>
                                                                    </div>
                                                                </div>
                                                            </div>
                                                        </div>
                                                    </div>
                                                </div>
                                            </div>
                                        </div>
                                    </div>
                                </div>
                            </header>
                        </div>
                    </div>
                </div>
            </div>
        </div>
    </body>
    
    Code (markup):
    Doing the job of:

    <body>
    	<header>
    		<h1><a href="/">Bridge</a></h1>
    		<a href="#mainMenu" class="hrefToggle" hidden></a>
    		<nav id="mainMenu">
    			<a href="#mainMenu" class="hrefToggle" hidden></a>
    			<div>
    				<a href="#mainMenu" class="hrefToggle" hidden></a>
    				<ul>
    					<li><a href="/how-it-works/">How it works</a></li>
    Code (markup):
    Which includes those excess anchors and extra DIV to make that a modal dialog for mobile/hamburger, likely killing off 10 to 16k of scripttardery for 2k or less of CSS.

    Just as it's wasting 1.5 megabytes of CSS when the entire SITE probably doesn't need more than 48k of it, and the equally derpy 813k of JavaScript on a site where I'm not seeing a whole lot that even needs scripting.

    It's entirely the type of half-assed incompetent train wreck I've come to expect from the sucker-bait technologies you've chosen, and if someone brought that to me as a client I'd tell them to pitch the entire broken inaccessible slow loading mess in the trash and to start over from scratch; without the garbage "shortcuts" that are just going to screw you over in the long run.

    And apologies if I got a bit crass -- even by my normal posting standards -- there, but I'm tired... sick and tired. Sick and tired of seeing this same rubbish over and over again being used to take advantage of people who just don't know any better. It's sleazy, it's predatory, and the dirtbags out there who duped you into thinking you have an actual website seem to be thriving... Just like the sleazy scumbucket wastes of flesh everywhere in our society at every level right now.

    It's truly disgusting that these walking turds -- like the know-nothings who created "Elementor" -- aren't held up for constant ridicule and outed for the snake oil peddling little shits they really are!
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
    deathshadow, Aug 14, 2020 IP
    kk5st, malky66 and sarahk like this.
  5. qwikad.com

    qwikad.com Illustrious Member Affiliate Manager

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    #5
    I am actually with @NetStar on this one. Whitman or Bezos didn't get to where they are today by listening to this kind of advice. Honestly, nobody cares anymore about what the code is like. Back in the day, when the browsers were primitive, you had no choice, but to do it right (Or the way a browser could handle it. I remember back then Chrome would show a page one way and Firefox another way. Today it's pretty much all the same). Today's browsers can handle whatever code you throw at them. Same goes for a site speed. On a dial up or some bad cable maybe you need to think about the code and such, but with fiber and DSL - the speed difference between a good and bad code is insignificant. And the majority of people are on good internet connections.

    Secondly, when users ask to review their sites, they don't mean the HTML / CSS code. Some do, but for the majority of them, it's not what they are asking. They have no way of controlling what Wordpress throws at them. Why bother criticizing someone for what they are not responsible for? Makes no sense.
     
    qwikad.com, Aug 15, 2020 IP
  6. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #6
    Half-truth at best. They got where they were by hard work at the beginning, and only started coasting once they were on top. Saying things like:

    Being nothing more than lame excuses for things that WILL bite them sooner than later.

    Because the site has problems. As @kk5st pointed out the page isn't responsive; it's a giant "screw you" to mobile. NOT good when more than half the web's browser traffic is now on mobile devices.

    Mobile devices that have a fraction the storage, memory, and processing power of the desktop, and in most places are bandwidth restricted and bandwidth capped out the yazoo.

    The BALD FACED LIE about "but with fiber and DSL" being just another lame excuse, just as "majority of people are on good Internet connections" is basically the equivalent of saying "most people are sighted and on screens". If nothing else, it's bigotry. You might as well be saying "F*** the farmers, f*** the people tethering, F*** the people in rural America, f*** the blind, and F*** everyone else who isn't my perfect ideal of a user".

    There's a word for that, it's called bigotry. AND it's also narcissistic sociopathy. "Well it's fine for me and the people I know". Well huffing good for THEM! It's the same "me me me me me f*** everyone else" idiocy that leads to public stupidity like anti-maskers, anti-vaxxers, running around waving a penis extension around on state house steps screaming about "but muh rights" whilst failing to realize one's rights end where it results in harm to others, and of course the Ice Capades.

    As such I guess I really shouldn't be surprised our society as a whole values a sociopathic lack of empathy as a flipping virtue, and will defend bigoted, ignorant, and broken practices to the very end so long as it's not something that inconveniences themselves.

    As users continue to complain about slow sites and more often than not browsers like Chrome and FF "taking more memory than they used to". As many clients are wising up and starting to get so obsessed with speeds they're getting right into lighthouse's breakdowns looking at FCP and FMP. (First contextual paint, First meaningful paint respectively). As people still go to tools (that aren't as useful as they once were) like pingdom and pagespeed insights / lighthouse pouring over the fine numbers as a number of search engines are now penalizing slow bloated sites.

    Except it's not JUST about the client-side. Bloated code also impacts the server-side. Separating into too many files impacts the server side. They make the server take longer to respond to new requests, uses up or hogs the simultaneous requests, etc, etc. Laughably the new speedup "push" technologies oft used to make up for shite code can make this only work, since you're holding the connection open so the server can't go round-robin around the wheel to serve others.

    But again even client-side the elitist "but everyone has broadband" LAME EXCUSE falls apart all over the globe. Large parts of Africa are stuck at PCM mobile speeds as their only connection. Large swaths of the US still shotgun dialup if they "need" internet access or rely on something massively overpriced like Hughsnet. And here's the kicker, those slower users also slow the server because they too are hogging a connection.

    It's why I make such a stink about raw file counts. REGARDLESS of connection throughput, each separate file has an overhead based more on the transfer route and overall "ping time" than they do the raw filesize.

    Which is why a fiber connect in NH takes over 20 seconds to load their page as I'm looking at near on one second of ping time betwixt here and wherever that is hosted. Yeah, the throughput is stellar, but the file counts are bending that speed over the table. Just because it's probably reasonably quick loading for people seeing 50ms or less overhead that doesn't mean its not an unmitigated disaster for everyone else.

    Again, it's not about the perfect user or the perfect connection or whatever luxury you happen to have, it's about the most reasonable worst case. As Dan used to say, "the only thing you can know for certain about who will visit your website is you have no idea who will visit your website". That's where "target audience" -- whilst often a valid point -- more often than not gets turned into a lame excuse for someone to not bother putting in the work.

    Thing is that code is often directly responsible for the problems even a casual inspection gives. That's what makes tools like "elementor" be nothing more than sleazy dirtbag predatory garbage.

    They were responsible for choosing it, likely through ignorance and propaganda. As such telling them how jacked up it is, why it's jacked up, and so forth to try and educate them isn't a horrible idea. They were suckered; how DARE we say that?

    Seriously, most of the code issues 1:1 relate to the problems in question.

    Site Problem                       Related Code
    
    non-elastic/useless font sizes     PX font-size in CSS
    
    broken responsiveness              Use of a shoddy WYSIWGY "site generator"
                                       (elementor) that mixes and matches metrics
                                       and far too many static presentational div
                                       and classes
    
    broken non-mouse/touch navigation  Gibberish non-semantic markup with zero
                                       Logical document structure
    
    Likely SEO issues                  See "broken non-mouse navigation"
    
    Nonsensical / broken on screen
    readers and braille readers        See "broken non-mouse navigation"
    
    slow loading                       Non-semantic markup and too many
                                       separate files. Likely to be penalized
                                       by search on these grounds as well.
    
    Code (markup):
    Such bloated wrecks being harder to maintain and costing more in the long run. That people think otherwise and think these disasters bound for failure are worth using is deeply rooted in confirmation bias. By getting A result, ANY result, they think they've done a good job, especially if it's pretty on the machine they happen to be seated in front of; completely blind to the fact there's more to websites than that.

    Once they've convinced themselves of having done a good job out of total ignorance, it becomes near impossible to tell them otherwise. No amount of facts can change their mind or defense of these rubbish broken tools... just like fundamentalists, political extremists, and other such snake oil doctors.

    These types of sleazy shortcuts mated to a "nobody cares about the code" attitude is why so many startups and "wishful thinkers" fail within their first year. Because the parrot the same half-assed nonsensical lame excuses over and over instead of actually putting in the work. I suspect this is from so many people treating websites as a get-rich-quick scheme instead of a serious investment of time and money. I've seen it far too many times where people think they can slop together an off the shelf answer -- that anyone and everyone else has access to-- and then wonder why they've got a money pit on their hands. It's because they didn't want to learn, made up excuses not to learn, got sucked by flash-over-substance marketing, and blindly believed propaganda that was in no way, shape, or form based in reality.

    Hence why when I hear someone on a web development forums say "nobody cares about the code" all I hear is that "as a 'web developer' I really don't give a flying f*** about doing my job".

    Now, I know a lot of you don't do this for work, but if this is for a business; it's work. Something I might add to my bag of catchphrases: I think a lot of people go into web development because they think it's easy and isn't "real work". If it's a job it's real work, and if you're not doing real work, you're not doing your job.

    Again though, far too many people who have no interest in how the web actually works seem to view slopping out a website as some sort of get rich quick scheme, and that's why it's so easy for the dirtbag predators to bend them over a log like Ned Beatty and tell them to "Squeal like a pig". Worse, some people even seem to enjoy it.

    Which is why 6 out of the last 10 contracts as a freelance accessibility and efficiency consultant, I ended up getting people fired. Because they refuse to accept that their development decisions are what got them in trouble in the first place, have this laissez-faire attitude towards their code, and will do anything to avoid taking responsibility for having been the ones who screwed up. Including defending these broken bloated SCAMS and the BALD FACED LIES that led to people choosing them in the first place.

    Like the clown I got fired from his six figure job at the fed a hair over two weeks ago; Who in under a minute said both "We need to use react and bootstrap so other people can figure out how it works" in nearly the same breath as "They can't fire me, I'm the only one here who knows how everything works".

    It's what happens when people who know jack about **** end up failing upwards into middle-management.
     
    deathshadow, Aug 15, 2020 IP
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  7. Spoiltdiva

    Spoiltdiva Acclaimed Member

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    #7
    I know as much about coding as I do about old kingdom Egyptian hieroglyphics. But like 50% of the members who read @deathshadow's posts, I don't read them to learn about coding....nope. I read them in order to learn unique and interesting ways to utilize the English language.
    If in time I may have picked up a trick or two about coding from his posts, then so much the better.:cool: I have given a like for the above quote.^^^ Let us just say it's from one masker to another.
     
    Spoiltdiva, Aug 15, 2020 IP
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  8. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #8
    I wonder if any of you have ever worked with a development team before or even at a company that creates software... When you're starting your initial phase of development and design everyone focuses the majority of their time on minor details. Your entire design team wants to take 4 months to design components (fonts, buttons, forms, grid, switches, navbars) etc. Your entire back end team want to spend their 4 months building their own "structure" (aka custom framework). The outcome is usually 1) inconsistent design/branding. 2) Inconsistent application structure that NO ONE can easily understand if they weren't part of the development. So what happens is your CTO or Lead will say "We are using Vuetify for design, Vue for front end, and Node.js with Express for backend". The results are: 1) Consistent well tested design with thoughtout dropin components. 2) Frameworks that provide consistent practical programming design that make it EASY to extend and EASY for newly hired developers to pick up. This allows the developers and designers to spend the majority of their time working on the project and NOT focusing on minor details.

    Your customers truly do NOT care how the site is coded. They don't know what bootstrap, foundation, etc are nor do they care. They don't care if you use PHP or Go. They don't care if you write out SQL queries or use an ORM. They don't care if buttons and forms were styled in-house or used out of the box from a design system. They also do NOT notice or care that your app is processed in 0.033s instead of the possibility of it processing in 0.019s.

    BIG companies can afford to "waste" time on these things because they are so damn profitable they have personnel for EVERYTHING imaginable (UI designer, UI sketcher, template designer, frontend developer, web designer, graphic designer, icon designer blah blah blah). A BIG company can spend 4 months on sketch and design while still updating their current product. They can also spend 6 months (at the same time) creating their own framework, design system etc. All at the same time.... A SMALL company or startup needs to focus on ONE thing. And that is getting your product to market AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. And that's why frameworks help... It's not about writing the most intelligent and least few CSS lines of code. It's about not wasting time to worry about the damn shape and design of your components.....
     
    NetStar, Aug 16, 2020 IP
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  9. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #9
    Warning, the kids gloves are coming off as I've had it with this know-nothing fool.

    Whilst I wonder the same of you, given your propensity for ignoring very important factors, painfully bad results, and other things that give the end user the middle finger. You sound like someone who's only ever worked with in-house crapplets, things built by your betters, or in an environment filled with sleazy dirtbags who filled your head with all these nonsensical lame excuses.

    Not even sure who you're directing that at -- yourself or us. Major details always come first... which is why most of the time you want content, structure, and logic handled long before you start dicking around with front-end eye candy.

    Hence why progressive enhancement starts with content or a reasonable facsimile of future content, as if HTML/CSS/JS don't even exist. Content dictates semantic markup giving you the baseline of accessibility for EVERYONE, then and only then do you layer the presentation atop it for each of the targets.

    A process that lets you start the back end long before you start worrying about the front-end, and hands you an accessible front-end on a silver platter. Hence why when you say nonsense like this:

    You're talking out your arse about things that should only be around 10-30 man-hours of work. If it takes longer than that, it's because of design approval by the client / higher ups which in developing a front end is where 90%+ of the time ends up wasted regardless of how you're building a front-end, frameworks or no.

    Again a bullshit amount of time that reeks of ineptitude and not knowing enough about whatever underlying langauges were chosen to even have such an opinion. The time would depend on the system, but really for anything unique, of value, and worth the time to build if it takes any more time without the frameworks for you and those you work with, you spent too much time learning frameworks and not enough time on learning the basics of whatever lies beneath.

    Because again, these dipshit frameworks take MORE time to work with, layer on MORE to learn, increase the layers and levels of complexity making it harder to work with, harder to build, and harder to maintain... and if you want it to do something the framework doesn't do out of the box, most of the time you end up in the hobble skirt becasue you never learned how to do anything on your own.

    That's again the bald faced lies on which these frameworks are built, because ANY of these claims of being easier, or letting you build faster, or being better for collaboration are 100% grade A farm fresh BULLSHIT! It has less truths in it than a Trump tweet or an episode of Dr. Oz.

    As opposed to the yawn-worthy cookie cutter broken appearance and layout everything built with bootcrap has?

    On front or back-end if simple clear consistent use of the language as intended is something "No one can easily understand" then something is criminally wrong. Again, less code, proper code, semantic markup, good practices, proper code formatting -- these things exist to make it EASIER for people to understand.

    These bloated hard to follow gibberish codebases these frameworks vomit up are what's inconsistent and hard to understand.

    Which is simpler or easier to understand/maintain? Incompetent trash like:

    
    <div class="elementor-element elementor-element-aba08ed header-left-menu-col elementor-column elementor-col-50 elementor-inner-column" data-id="aba08ed" data-element_type="column">
    	<div class="elementor-column-wrap  elementor-element-populated">
    		<div class="elementor-widget-wrap">
    			<div class="elementor-element elementor-element-29a2162 elementor-widget elementor-widget-ekit-nav-menu" data-id="29a2162" data-element_type="widget" data-widget_type="ekit-nav-menu.default">
    				<div class="elementor-widget-container">
    					<div class="ekit-wid-con" >
    						<div id="ekit-megamenu-full-menu" class="elementskit-menu-container elementskit-menu-offcanvas-elements elementskit-navbar-nav-default elementskit_line_arrow ekit-nav-menu-one-page-">
    							<ul id="main-menu" class="elementskit-navbar-nav elementskit-menu-po-right">
    								<li id="menu-item-79" class="menu-item menu-item-type-post_type menu-item-object-page menu-item-79 nav-item elementskit-mobile-builder-content"><a href="https://bridgeteams.com/how-it-works/" class="ekit-menu-nav-link">How it works</a></li>
    								<li id="menu-item-898" class="menu-item menu-item-type-post_type menu-item-object-page menu-item-898 nav-item elementskit-mobile-builder-content"><a href="https://bridgeteams.com/product/" class="ekit-menu-nav-link">Product</a></li>
    								<li id="menu-item-1113" class="menu-item menu-item-type-post_type menu-item-object-page menu-item-1113 nav-item elementskit-mobile-builder-content"><a href="https://bridgeteams.com/our-locations/" class="ekit-menu-nav-link">Locations</a></li>
    								<li id="menu-item-77" class="menu-item menu-item-type-post_type menu-item-object-page menu-item-77 nav-item elementskit-mobile-builder-content"><a href="https://bridgeteams.com/about-us/" class="ekit-menu-nav-link">About us</a></li>
    								<li id="menu-item-78" class="menu-item menu-item-type-post_type menu-item-object-page menu-item-78 nav-item elementskit-mobile-builder-content"><a href="https://bridgeteams.com/faq/" class="ekit-menu-nav-link">FAQ</a></li>
    								<li id="menu-item-509" class="menu-item menu-item-type-post_type menu-item-object-page menu-item-509 nav-item elementskit-mobile-builder-content"><a href="https://bridgeteams.com/contact-us/" class="ekit-menu-nav-link">Contact us</a></li>
    								<li id="menu-item-676" class="last-left-menu-item menu-item menu-item-type-post_type menu-item-object-page menu-item-676 nav-item elementskit-mobile-builder-content"><a href="https://bridgeteams.com/blog/" class="ekit-menu-nav-link">Blog</a></li>
    								<li id="menu-item-80" class="hard-hidden auth-menu-link menu-item menu-item-type-custom menu-item-object-custom menu-item-80 nav-item elementskit-mobile-builder-content"><a href="#" class="ekit-menu-nav-link">Sign up</a></li>
    								<li id="menu-item-81" class="menu-item-bordered-button menu-item menu-item-type-custom menu-item-object-custom menu-item-81 nav-item elementskit-mobile-builder-content"><a href="https://www.app.bridgeteams.com/login" class="ekit-menu-nav-link">Sign In</a></li>
    								<li id="menu-item-82" class="hard-hidden menu-item-bordered-button menu-item menu-item-type-custom menu-item-object-custom menu-item-82 nav-item elementskit-mobile-builder-content"><a href="#" class="ekit-menu-nav-link">Run the numbers</a></li>
    							</ul>
    
    Code (markup):
    Which also tells users to go F*** themselves due to the lack of navigable landings and semantics, or:

    
    <ul id="mainMenu">
    	<li><a href="/how-it-works/">How it works</a></li>
    	<li><a href="/product/">Product</a></li>
    	<li><a href="/our-locations/">Locations</a></li>
    	<li><a href="/about-us/">About us</a></li>
    	<li><a href="/faq/">FAQ</a></li>
    	<li><a href="/contact-us/">Contact us</a></li>
    	<li><a href="/blog/" class="ekit-menu-nav-link">Blog</a></li>
    	<li class="alternate"><a href="/signup">Sign up</a></li>
    	<li class="alternate"><a href="#signin">Sign In</a></li>
    </ul>
    Code (markup):
    Which is literally ALL the markup that should be present there.

    If you think the former snippet is the one that's easier to work with, or took less time to develop, or is any way, shape, or form worthy of defending... please -- for the love of whatever fairy tale about the genocidal maniac in the sky you subscribe to -- just back the away from the keyboard and go take up something a bit less detail oriented like macramé.

    Wow, I've not used that one in a while.

    Meaning he's exactly the type of useless shit that gets his IT advice from the pages of Forbes -- the equivalent of getting financial advice from Popular Mechanics -- and likely having experience and knowledge that amounts to dick. Exactly the type of know-nothing I've spent the past ten years having to tell clients/site-owners/boards/upper management to fire.

    That are often a buggy, unreliable mismatch of technologies with zero graceful degradation, zero accessibility, are harder to maintain, a thousand times more complex than need be, and took five times LONGER to develop than if all that crap had been tossed in the trash.

    Which is most always utter and total malarkey, A fiction used by people unqualified to do the job to hold on tooth-and-nail to the positions they failed upwards into. Because of course using ten times the code needed makes it easy for new hires to understand. Using all these different frameworks that violate good practices are SO much easier. OF course it is.

    Seriously, BULLCOOKIES and balderdash. Again, BALD FACED LIES not based in logic, reason, or reality; and why dealing with framework fanboys is more akin to being like dealing with cultists.

    Look in my eye, what do you see?

    Two to twenty times the code to work with is not easier to create.
    Two to twenty times the code to work with is not easier to blindly copy or learn from.
    Two to twenty times the code to work with is not better for collaboration or "new hires".

    ESPECIALLY when the results have -- again -- broken responsiveness, broken accessibility, are broken for on-page SEO efforts...

    Which is why all you're spewing is the same lame, limp, soft, PROPAGANDA that has absolutely not a damned thing to do with reality.

    Which is funny, since learning the derpy framework detracts from the time to work on the project. Dealing with the shortcomings and flaws of the frameworks

    ... and having to throw it all in the trash once you find out you've been suckered, you get a summons, or it's all spiralling down the toilet REALLY ends up being a waste of the developers time.

    THERE IS NO FLIPPING TIME SAVINGS, EASE OF USE, OR OTHER SUCH BULLSHIT PROVIDED BY THESE F**WIT FRAMEWORKS!

    Which is why they are a giant scam and those who create such systems are nothing more than sleazy predatory scumbuckets who should probably be out jizz mopping for a living, not making websites.

    Also why every time you parrot that unfounded claim, you just make yourself sound even dumber than you already have on the topic.

    But they do care when they get sued or fined for accessibility failings. They care when they can't figure out why bounce is so high. They do care when they can't figure out why conversions are so low. They care when they have an obvious no-traffic money pit on their hands. They care when no matter how much hardware and goofy tricks they throw at it, it chokes out hosting connections and drag the server under. They care when it takes longer to build, is harder to maintain, harder to modify, and so forth.

    All things these garbage frameworks and bad practices create.

    Things you clearly have never dealt with, or give a damn about... meaning near as I can tell you've never once worked on a real website for a real business.

    And that is why it sounds like you're talking out your arse.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2020
    deathshadow, Aug 17, 2020 IP
  10. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #10
    Oh my. This trigger excites me.

    Let me put things in to perspective for you. You and I are very different. Proceed to understand:

    NetStar: I am interested in making money.
    Deathshadow: I am interested in writing code.

    NetStar: I want to launch products and web sites as fast as possible.
    Deathshadow: I don't care about time I will take as along as possible just to do it all on my own.

    NetStar: I understand I can write everything myself but I also understand the benefits of using well tested components, frameworks, and libraries.
    Deathshadow: I can't deal with using code written by other people. It has to be written by myself.

    NetStar: I acknowledge that there are probably tons of people out there smarter than myself that create these libraries.
    Deathshadow: I am the smartest. I know best. Only I can do it the best way.

    NetStar: CSS frameworks like bootstrap are written by dozens, tested by thousands, and used by millions.
    Deathshadow: I write it myself. I test it myself. It's used by a few people who visit my 1990's style web site.

    NetStar: I believe in creating visually appealing UI's that follow reasonable modern trends that people are use to.
    Deathshadow: Craigslist is the best web site ever.

    NetStar: I want to get my product to market ASAP to start making money ASAP.
    Deathshadow: I don't care about making money with my product. I only care that I did it all on my own.

    NetStar: I don't care about saving 0.033s of processing. Why? Because it's not noticable.
    Deathshadow: I will spend 6 months writing code to save 0.02s of processing time. Why? Because I know it's faster.

    NetStar: I give advice that favors business and making money.
    Deathshadow: I only give advice that appeases me and other nerds. I have no idea that I am completely clueless when it comes to this topic.


    You see...thats how we differ. If you want to write 5 lines of code instead of 7 go ask deathshadow for advice. If you want to get your web site up to make money consider taking my stance on development.

    Here is a pop quiz for you:

    A client states they need a User Interface that has a consistent look across all components (switches, list/tree views, dropdowns, inputs, textareas, navigation bars, alerts, badges, notifications, chips, cards, fonts, etc) and you have 1 minute to create it. Which is faster:

    A. Select Bootstrap, Foundation, Vuetify, Tailwind, etc. and immediately show the client the components.

    -OR-

    B. Write all the CSS code yourself.

    That is why the framework is ALWAYS faster to develop with. Duh.

    You need a mentor.
     
    NetStar, Aug 17, 2020 IP
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  11. Efetobor Agbontaen

    Efetobor Agbontaen Active Member

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    #11
    hahahahaha....
    @NetStar, I really love how you are able to put your point across so clearly without sounding angry or insulting. (y)
     
    Efetobor Agbontaen, Aug 23, 2020 IP
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  12. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #12
    I get a laugh out of how he seems to be claiming I'm saying the exact opposite of what my posts say, loads up on claims without backing them in rational provable facts, continually moves the goalpost, and in general replies with nothing more than "wah wah, is not".

    See nonsense like "write all the CSS code yourself" when the alternative is pissing JUST AS MUCH CODE into the markup as if it was still 1997 and we were still using HTML 3.2. That's what makes everything he's saying amount to nothing more than lame excuses.

    Just like the 0.33s of processing shit, when it adds up to 20 seconds to a minute by the time you have hundreds of such failings and mistakes.

    Or the idiotic claim about "1990's style website" clearly proving he was never online in 1997. More so when most of what I build looks like or is based off of "material design" or concepts like "flat+" -- the design trend Apple nearly single-handedly started and that others adopted.

    Because making money is ok. Being a sleazy dirtbag running around ripping people off is not. As fast as possible is good, but not at the cost of usability, accessibility, speed, efficiency, and long term maintennance costs! Much less the utter time wasted when/if it comes time to customize any of that junk for the client thanks to specificity hell, over-use of !important, and all the other halfwit trash "frameworks" bring to the table.

    Which is of course why he parrots the same BS I get when dealing with "managers" that either end up getting demoted or fired when they refuse to take corrective action 4 out of 10 times I go into a place as an accessibility consultant.

    See his "one minute" claim, where to do that you'd basically be hitting ^C^V from a framework example page. That assumes the client doesn't kick you out when they see you do that, sue or fire you when they found out you did that, wonder what the *** they hired you for, but more importantly assuming that the framework even does or looks like what the client wants.

    More often than not, it doesn't. If you want to make anything unique from these frameworks, you're ending up writing as much HTML pissed on with endless pointless presentational classes, as you would normal semantic HTML and CSS.

    All because people dive for these stupid frameworks before they know enough HTML or CSS to form a rational or valid opinion on if they're any good or not; and then NEVER learn those underlying languages enough to know how badly they've screwed themselves until it is too late.

    ... becuase if your "get it to market as fast as possible" ends up a 100% cookie-cutter of what "dozens, thousands, and millions" have already done, what makes you better than anyone else? Much less -- again -- the bandwagon fallacy. Just because all the other lemmings are running off a cliff...

    "getting it to market ASAP" being one of the things that actually screws over many products, as you end up putting them out there before they are actually ready. Again, the dumbass "credit mentality" in action. Pay more later for something you can't afford now. That's NOT a recipe for success.

    You can see he keeps harping on the idea that I'm saying that "I hate it because I didn't write it myself". That's not what I'm saying because if you use something like bootstrap, you're STILL writing the same amount of -- if not more -- code. That's where every single claim about it is put to the test and revealed as a lie. I didn't write HTML or CSS myself, and I'm fine with using those. These front-end frameworks sit atop them resulting in more bloat, more to learn, AND MORE WORK without providing a single damned thing the underlying languages cannot do better without them!

    Because again, the mindset and mentality behind this trash is utterly broken, banjaxed, and otherwise fubar.

    He can't create a rational fact based response, so he has to mindlessly repeat propaganda with zero legitimate facts behind it. Thus his posts being filled to the brim with glittering generalities, transfer, plain folks, bandwagon, testimonial, card stacking, and of course name-calling (in the propaganda sense, which is more subtle than the crass flavor I use)

    Those seven core techniques that once you see them for what they are, it's like putting on Hoffman lenses for the first time after losing a fist-fight with the Hot Rod.

    [​IMG]

    Which might explain my constant headaches.
     
    deathshadow, Aug 23, 2020 IP
  13. Efetobor Agbontaen

    Efetobor Agbontaen Active Member

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    #13
    This explains a lot about all your posts. It was obvious before now but I just couldn't place it. So you are a consultant? Now I understand your pain with a lot of frameworks...

    The thing is that everyone has their specialty too and from were I'm from it's usually not frontend. I mean we write frontend but not as a core profession. Personally I'm more into backend and that's why a lot of people do not even already know some of your concepts.... and you should not blame them.

    I've read one of your Medium posts and I understood the guts of all you try to say on this forum. Honestly, till then, I didn't even know parts of html could be shown and hidden onclick strictly with CSS.... But coming from a core backend development background, you should understand why. (And it's the same for a lot of people)....

    Finally and more importantly, I really really want to encourage you to build an opensource framework like Bootstrap and WordPress, the reason is this:

    1. Your points are valid but they are not going to replace Bootstrap. A framework that does it normally might replace bootstrap.
    2. For content generation, still valid but WordPress is sooo not going away. Honestly, the amount of things you can do with WordPress in a day cannot just be beaten with pure coding. It's only after you've done a lot in a day and decide to peek at the generated source that you realize all the plenty plenty yamayama. So developing a similar cms like it with well generated codes is the best way to go
    I am a very big WordPress fan but I've also been considering No 2.
     
    Efetobor Agbontaen, Aug 23, 2020 IP
  14. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #14
    It's not about key strokes. It's about speeding up the time it takes to fiddle with design elements, whitespace and aesthetics. It's about using well tested reliable grids and UI components. It's about saving time on onboarding new developers and designers who can now look at documentation and figure out your code base without weeks of internal code training.

    But it doesn't take additional 20 seconds at all...

    You're focused on all the wrong things... You could benefit from some refreshing of your skills. Let's bring you up to speed son..
     
    NetStar, Aug 23, 2020 IP
  15. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #15
    Exactly, and that's why using presentational classes to say the exact same things in the markup that you'd say in the CSS without the framework DOESN'T SAVE YOU ANY DAMNED TIME! Particularly when you end up repeating yourself over and over and over in the markup for something you can say only once in the CSS. That's why the people who use DRY as an excuse for idiocy like bootstrap are talking out their arse.

    Clean consistent semantic markup can hand you your layout on a silver plate because you already have logical document structure upon which to base and apply things, without pissing on the HTML with classes that only apply to ONE media target. Content dictates markup, markup + content + user needs dictates layout, THEN you layer the eye candy on top.

    You mean like HTML and CSS actually provide you if you bother learning the bloody languages? Though don't even get me started on the idiocy that are "grids". Pre-determined brakepoints and layout that inevitably break for lacking the ability to adjust to the content; forcing the content creator to customize content to the layout instead of having layouts that adjust to the bloody content! The same backwards approach that I see time and time again screwing over the clients I go in to help.

    Used properly that shouldn't be a thing for vanilla code, since if the person you hire can't handle vanilla code what the hell are you even hiring them for? It means they're unqualified to fix when things go wrong, unqualified to build anything unique or of value, and are just the same types of lazy turds who don't know how to do anything but ^C^V other people's work; WITHOUT the knowledge to know what's good to copy and what's not.

    Again, what's going to be easier for someone to come in as a new hire and maintain/modify/update? This broken bloated train wreck flipping the bird at visitors and developers alike:

    
    <body itemtype='https://schema.org/WebPage' itemscope='itemscope' class="home page-template-default page page-id-22 ast-desktop ast-page-builder-template ast-no-sidebar astra-2.1.4 ast-header-custom-item-inside group-blog ast-single-post ast-inherit-site-logo-transparent elementor-default elementor-page elementor-page-22">
    		<div>
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    Or proper clean accessible markup that anyone should be able to understand:

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    Code (markup):
    That is why everything you claim is utter and total nonsense. You do not know the first blasted thing of which you speak.

    By the time you get to the OP's website -- remember there's an OP here -- it sure as shine-ola does because the failings and "shortcuts that take longer" are layered one atop the other atop the other, completely screwing them over. That's why:

    RIGHT BACK AT YOU! Because apparently you don't give a flying purple fish about usability, accessibility, sustainability, code clarity, or any other meaningful metric by which an actual professional opinion -- what the OP asked for -- should be based. Instead you spew lame excuses, a complete lassez-faire attitude, and advocating for things that WILL screw over the OP sooner or later just like it screws over the clients I go out there and actually help.

    You don't seem to be focused on anything that matters at all as you're ignoring the most important thing of all: THE USER. Who may not be at your perfect screen where the grids make sense. Where things like the mismatch of px and EM results in a broken layout. Where they may not even be sighted. All the people the broken, bloated, trash code that takes LONGER to create and is HARDER to maintain is telling to bend over so some lazy dirtbag unqualified to do the job can take a walk up their strada-chocolatta.

    Whilst you don't know the first damned thing about the topic of web development, don't give a **** about doing a good or proper job, and clearly have no skills worthy of mention. BOY!

    Hence why you never provided any useful information about yourself here; never once shown an example of your work worthy of mention; what it is you actually do; and for all intents and purposes hide anything about yourself that could give you the authority and justification for your nonsensical fairy tale claims. Just as you failed in this thread -- and nearly every thread of the past decade you've waltzed into -- to provide any useful, meaningful, or constructive advice; apart from a pat on the back and screaming "Wah wah, is not" at every other respondent. It's basically all you seem to do here.

    Almost as if you're applauding the sleazy fly-by-night predators; slapping the rose-coloured glasses on these poor fools heads, leading them down the path to failure so everyone can sing kumbayah around the drum circle; hippy-dippy feel good bullshit as the world burns down around everyone. Who cares how many people it f***'s over so long as you made a buck, huh? Can you say "narcissistic sociopath"? I knew you could.
     
    deathshadow, Aug 23, 2020 IP
  16. Spoiltdiva

    Spoiltdiva Acclaimed Member

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    #16
    ^^^Isn't that the gospel truth though? I suppose like an irritating housefly, Marco ought to be simply ignored. But it's hard to do and every once in awhile a virtual fly swat is required.
     
    Spoiltdiva, Aug 24, 2020 IP
  17. deathshadow

    deathshadow Acclaimed Member

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    #17
    Specifically accessibility and efficiency. These frameworks inherently create accessibility violations that could be avoided if people would learn the underlying languages instead of wasting their time with these broken frameworks built in broken mentality and architecture; all whilst under the DELUSION that they're saving themselves any time.

    Before I did accessibility consulting I did full stack development -- top to bottom -- in large teams, solo, and everything in-between. Before I did web development I created custom double-entry accounting systems in everything from Paradox to Oracle.

    I had to dial back to consulting -- which my existing skillset fit -- because I'm on doctors orders not to work thanks to non-24 sleep wake disorder (meaning I'll never be able to work "office hours" ever again) and Parkinson's. I probably shouldn't be working, but given this is 'Murica where everyone says "F*** the crippies" and I rather enjoy eating and having a roof over my head, I had to come up with something to do.

    I hear that type of thing a lot, and IMHO it's a lot of what's wrong with this industry. Like you'll hear some people say "Oh I really only do back-end with PHP and don't know the front end". Given PHP's flipping job -- or at least what it's best used for -- is to glue database to markup, if you don't know front end what the devil makes you qualified to create or work on the back end that spits out the front-end?!?. See the logic disconnect there?

    Much less how do you know if the front end you're using, or being given, is worth a damn.

    If you're working with web technologies, HTML/CSS should basically be oh-three-hundred.

    Fazio: What's 0300?

    SSgt Lloyce: Oh-three-hundred, Basic Infantryman.

    Fazio: Does that mean Vietnam?

    SSgt LLoyce: Goddamn right it means Vietnam, numbnuts. Goddamnit, oh-three-hundred is basic infantryman. Oh-three-hundred is the United States Marine Corps!

    The marines teach people to be infantryman first, regardless of what specialty you go into. Within infantry squads a degree of cross-training takes place so everyone knows everyone else's job, knows what they need, what they expect, so that things can run as smoothly as possible. Nobody starts out as a specialist.

    In web development right now we have overspecialization that's harming the industry as a whole, hence why we're starting to see backlash. What type of backlash?

    https://getadaaccessible.com/ada-compliance-law-and-penalties/
    https://www.globalreach.com/about/n...-lawsuits-threaten-non-ada-compliant-websites
    https://fortune.com/2019/09/21/beyonce-lawsuit-website-ada-compliant/
    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/07/dominos-supreme-court.html

    ... which is where "nobody cares about the code" becomes ignorant nonsense repeated by people who don't understand that this garbage code violates accessibility norms. That last link -- Dominos being refused a hearing by the supreme court upholding a lower courts finding against them? Well, that's open-season on any public-facing business.

    And systems like React, Vue, Bootstrap, Tailwind, W3.css (W3fools framework) etc, etc, all create such violations under laws like the US ADA and UK EQA.

    Said overspecialization resulting in many frauds, poseurs, and outright scam artists having a field day; since if the back-end guys don't know any better, any sleazy dirtbag can hand them copypasta of broken code and they won't know the difference. If the front end coder is handed a image created by some know-nothing PSD jockey under the delusion they're a "designer", they won't know enough to object. Checks and balances people!

    It's a problem top to bottom.

    1) Artists who THINK they are designers, but don't even know about how thin-glyph and serif fonts are bad for screen media legibility, or understand accessible font sizes or metrics, or how thinking in pixels results in a broken layout, or not knowing enough about HTML, CSS, and accessibility to be "designing" a blasted thing. Design is not art unto and of itself. Design is engineering that incorporates art; taking into consideration specifications, tolerances, and most importantly the needs of the end user. Things pushing pixels around in photoshop or any other visual tool simply is not going to give you.

    2) Front end "coders" who don't know enough about HTML/CSS to make the required corrections to what the "fraud designer" handed them, whilst also lacking the skills to hand the back-end folks what they need, or at least anything that might make their job simpler... like say, less markup. This situation is only exacerbated when the back end tries to get the front-end guys to be the ones slicing up their markup into the template system. They're expected to know enough back end to use derpy systems like smarty, but JOE FORBID the back-end guys be expected to be qualified to even touch markup, THE ENTIRE REASON THEIR BACK END SHOULD EXIST?!?

    3) Back end devs who don't know enough about the front-end to even write competent back-end code. Again, when the job is to glue database to markup -- aka what back end web development SHOULD be the be-all end-all of -- lacking knowledge of the front end makes such alleged back-end developers as unqualified to do their jobs as anyone else in this "perfect storm" of overspecialization.

    Thus HTML/CSS with a basic knowledge of accessibility minimums should be the "0300" of training. Because this is the web, and that's the bedrock. That's what the user is stuck dealing with and is the ONLY metric by which usability and accessibility would, should, or even can be measured.


    The blame comes about when they choose or force software stacks on the front-end whilst not being qualified to flap their trap ABOUT the front-end. IT's one of the classic lame excuses FOR frameworks is "it makes the back-end development easier" -- by pissing on the front-end in total ignorance. That's what I deal with around two-thirds of the time I take on a new contract.

    Though the real blame for these woes sits squarely on the shoulders of those who make them. It is PAINFULLY clear that the creators of things like Bootstrap and React are utterly unqualified to work on front-end code. The use of non-semantic markup, gibberish heading orders with a total lack of logical document structure, poorly planned and even outright pointless scripting utterly neutering any chance at graceful degradation, etc, etc, etc.

    Problems I go in to supervise the cleanup of. Problems where I have to educate the client's existing staff so they can learn to avoid them moving forward. Problems I get right down in there with their junior devs to coach, guide, teach, and aid.

    But because of the survivorship bias of "but we've been this way for years", the idiotic propaganda like the bandwagon fallacy "but thousands if not millions use this", glittering generalities over how "easy" these broken systems are (A bald faced lie, and actually a form of name calling in that by claiming to be easier, they are implying vanilla is harder -- it isn't!), and all the rest of the blindly repeated nonsense, there's always some poseurs who failed upwards into middle management who sound just like Netstar. Talking out their arse about things they don't understand, making up lame excuses for their own shortcomings, and oft willfully fighting against changes that -- in the case of my clients -- are required by LAW to avoid a fine, or even repeat fines.

    And that's fine... that's not where the problem is. The problem is that the sleazy dirtbag know-nothings who make frameworks don't seem to know it. They are ignorant of HTML/CSS capabilities diving for scripting for things that often NEVER needed to be scripted, or simply aren't JavaScript's job any time after around a decade ago. They are ignorant or willfully obtuse in their handling of semantic markup -- if any -- and seem to have no problem flipping the bird at "the cripples" or anyone who doesn't meet their perfect standard of perfect vision on screen media. They are at best ignorant, and at worst outright scams with less legitimacy than Amway or Mary Kay.

    Don't you find it troubling that the people who CREATE front-end frameworks are ignorant of the most basic rules of using HTML and CSS? That by their very nature they violate the separation of concerns and accessible document structure?

    Wordpress is not a framework, it's a CMS. I'm also getting sick of people labelling anything bigger than 10k of code as a "framework". It's a bloated, insecure, sloppy blogging system barely suitable for grandma to entertain the younglings with; and those who use it for business, well... again more dirtbag scam artists peddling their wares taking advantage of people who just don't know any better.

    As to building a framework, there's no point because there's not a single damned thing frameworks provide that HTML/CSS do not. If people just used logical document structure most of it's handed to you on a silver platter. More so in the modern arena with display:flex and display:grid, which take the last of the "but cross browser is hard" excuses and pitches them out the window. Hence why Bootstrap 5's dropping IE support entirely should be the final nail in any legitimate claim or excuse for its use.

    I do use a framework, it's called semantic markup with separation of presentation from content.

    The very nature by which these frameworks... "work" is flawed to the bone. The whole concept of them -- pissing endless pointless classes on non-semantic markup -- is utter and total shite that does nothing but make everything harder to work with, slower to develop, painful to maintain, agonizing to modify/customize, and on the whole are train wreck laundry lists of how NOT to build websites.

    ... and I've brainstormed multiple times trying to think of a way to do it, and every time I come back to the simple fact that vanilla HTML/CSS is many, MANY times easier, faster, and cleaner to develop if you take the time to learn them, instead of learning any of these dipshit idiotic dumbass frameworks.

    They are built upon lies. But as always people would sooner embrace the convenient lie than an uncomfortable truth. ESPECIALLY once that pesky cognitive dissonance kicks in.

    To paraphrase Franklin, "Those who would give up essential accessibility in the name of ease, deserve neither easy, nor accessibility".

    I think to a degree much of the problem is a lot of people go into programming thinking it's not "Real work". It is. If you're not doing real work you're not doing your job. That's why it's called "work" and not "happy happy fun time".
     
    deathshadow, Aug 25, 2020 IP
    kk5st and malky66 like this.
  18. NetStar

    NetStar Notable Member

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    #18
    A bunch of bloated nonsense.....

    People work smart. Use a framework to save time so you can focus on your product to get it to market ASAP. Then focus on making money. Ignore the horrible advice from "php programmers" who feel you need to reinvent the wheel over and over and over just because you can..... Horrible advice.
     
    NetStar, Aug 26, 2020 IP
    Efetobor Agbontaen and Saputnik like this.