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My own evidence that there is a sandbox...

Discussion in 'Search Engine Optimization' started by skunker, Mar 19, 2005.

  1. #1
    I can't speak for anyone else, but I do believe that the sandbox exists because of the following reasons:

    My site’s domain was purchased in early January 2005 and I did not put up a page until around January 20 2005. Currently, my site is less than 2 months old.

    Overnight, I received a TREMENDOUS amount of traffic, during the month of February, I hit over 2.2 million pageviews and 80,000+ unique visitors. Simultaneously, my site was featured in USATODAY’s HOT SITES page in print and online (PR7 page) and also quickly added to Yahoo’s Directory page as a result (yep, get listed in USATODAY and you are guaranteed a slot in Yahoo’s Directory).

    There was also a PR8 page that was linking to me, but I forgot the link.

    The number of links and traffic increases daily. I already broke last month’s vistors/traffic levels and this month is not even over yet. Also, I have hundreds, if not thousands of one-way back-links coming into the site.

    My site is optimized for SEO with CSS and minimal dynamic content.

    I rank #1-2 in MSN for several of my main keywords (world war 2 pictures, world war 2, etc) and those are very competitive terms. I also am in Yahoo’s SERPs for various words.

    My traffic rank from alexa.com is 148, 000.

    Here are my webstats to prove the site’s popularity: http://www.ww2incolor.com/webalizer/web/

    Here is my URL: www.ww2incolor.com

    I got over 8,200 of my pages indexed in Google (I did a site:ww2incolor.com command, is that the way to do it?) and yet, I am not in Google’s top 100?

    If anyone knows why I am "stuck" in limbo, please let me know. But I feel that no one has shown proof of getting their brand-new site in Google's top 10-15 in less than 6 months or so.
     
    skunker, Mar 19, 2005 IP
  2. crazyhorse

    crazyhorse Peon

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    #2
    The Google Sandbox theory, or Sandbox effect as it has become known in the SEO world, is a dampening filter that is applied to new websites. It usually lasts for between two and six months from the site's launch date. It's not unusual for a new website to enter the SERPs (search engine results pages), for a couple of weeks and then drop out of the search engine rankings completely, so if it happens to your new website - don't panic!

    Does the filter really exist?

    The Sandbox theory seems to be particularly apparent when a website's keyword phrases are fairly high profile and difficult to optimize for, such as playstation games, personal loans, search engine optimization, credit cards, SEO, etc. Although the sandbox effect is more obvious on website with products and services with high searched for keyphrases, it seems that most sites appear to suffer from the Sandbox effect, to some extent, irrespective of the keywords or the number and quality of incoming links from other websites. Although the Google sandbox effect is merely a theory, it is a theory that 75% of webmasters and search engine optimization professionals believe is a filter in the Google algorithm.

    The sandbox filter would appear to be designed to discourage spam websites, short term websites and to put short term link renters out of business.


    Another Sandbox theory is that Google may not be merely sandboxing complete new sites, but that they employing several filters, within the Google algorithm, that take into account the age of the site, the age of the links coming to the site, the range of internet hosting companies that are holding the incoming links, the PageRank, link text and page content of the incoming links and possibly even the title of the page that the links are coming from. More about this can be read here

    The cursive part applies to my site as well and i think to yours as well. Im having the same problem and im seeing the same thing happen to my own new site guess we need to give it a bit more time....
     
    crazyhorse, Mar 19, 2005 IP
  3. DarrenC

    DarrenC Peon

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    #3
    Good reply crazyhorse! I'll just add though, that I've heard / seen sites taken longer than six months get through the sandbox... as much as eleven months!
     
    DarrenC, Mar 19, 2005 IP
  4. crazyhorse

    crazyhorse Peon

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    #4
    Well to be honest i have heard that before as well ,but im not sure whether that more had to do with bad SEO techniques then with the sandbox theory.

    I just read some more about the changes in Google's algo/hilltop and someone mentioned in that article that pagerank is still important.

    RelevanceScore = 20%, PageRank = 40%, LocalScore = 40%

    Where:

    RS is the translation of all SEO efforts
    PR is the translation of Link-building efforts
    LS is the translation of links from the expert documents

    Taking this in consideration, not sure whether the figures are right, maybe i need to have a higher pagerank, maybe that can get you out of the sandbox earlier?

    Intresting is how they explain on how the hilltop functions:

    Google is running a batch processing of popular search terms (so-called ‘money keywords list’) and stores the results ready to serve. Google has vast database of popular search terms in its database, collected from actual searches as well as keyword phrases used in AdWords program. Google has perhaps set a threshold value to the number of searches a search term needs to have before it qualifies to get into the Hilltop pool for batch processing. The Hilltop runs on the total pool of popular search terms, maybe once a month. Incremental smaller size batch processing may be done more frequently on search terms that gain popularity and qualify to get into the Hilltop pool. Results for the major pool may be synchronized with the 10,000 servers once a month and the smaller batches updated more frequently.

    Search terms that do not qualify to kick in the Hilltop algo continue to show you the old Google ranking. Many SEO’s are happy and claim that their listings have not gone down for several client sites. They are perhaps checking with highly specific search terms that have not qualified to be on Hilltop radar yet. Read more about analyisis of hilltop algorithm
     
    crazyhorse, Mar 19, 2005 IP
  5. skunker

    skunker Guest

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    #5
    Thank you crazyhorse for backing up my evidence. I was killed over at the sitepoint forums because I said there is a 90% probability that a 'sandbox' filter exists. I can't believe some people are so blind....no one was able to give me any concrete evidence that a sandbox filer DOES NOT exist.
     
    skunker, Mar 19, 2005 IP
  6. seank1

    seank1 Peon

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    #6
    You were killed because you don't have any evidence of your 'claims'. How did you arrive at 90% probability? Did you run some statistical tests or something on G's algorithim?

    Just because there ISNT evidence, doesn't mean that it exists. That is a fallacy.

    People go both ways on this issue. Some people also like to tag on some statistics out of thin air to their beliefs.
     
    seank1, Mar 19, 2005 IP
  7. mizt

    mizt Active Member

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    #7
    Well my site is about the same as yours in age and is definately in the sandbox. Im 1, 2 for my search terms and 6, 8 for some very competive untargeted ones in MSN. Had all coop weight thrown at my sites and done countless link exchanges etc.. I know my SEO skills don't suck that bad that im not in the top 100 for "saltwater fly fishing". If someone wants to prove there is not a sandbox please place my site on the top 10 this month and then I will beileve you =).


    P.S. Just got google adsense with adlinks on my site. Check it out
     
    mizt, Mar 19, 2005 IP
  8. noppid

    noppid gunnin' for the quota

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    #8
    Your title is useless IMO with the pipe character in it. <title> | Saltwater Fly Fishing Portal</title>

    No one ever searches with special characters, that is diluting the possiblilty of the title being tied to your anchor IMO also.

    Reminds of of the guy that anchored his links with the pipe in the links as a seperator. He had no luck with his anchor keywords what so ever. But if ya searched with the pipes included, he was number one.
     
    noppid, Mar 19, 2005 IP
  9. Diamondbacks

    Diamondbacks Peon

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    #9
    You might check your backlinks somewhere like MarketLeap. This might shine some light on your issue.
     
    Diamondbacks, Mar 19, 2005 IP
  10. skunker

    skunker Guest

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    #10
    Someone show me a young site (2-3 months) that is out of the sandbox!!!! I bet you can't do it! No subdomains, please.
     
    skunker, Mar 19, 2005 IP
  11. noppid

    noppid gunnin' for the quota

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    #11
    Show me a site that is 3 months old that deserves the recognition? Why is it so hard to believe a new site does not and IMO should not, have a high rating.

    Unless you paid google for positioning, I think it's silly to complain that you don't have it.

    I'm gonna call my mommy and make her buy me a toy.
     
    noppid, Mar 19, 2005 IP
  12. ResaleBroker

    ResaleBroker Active Member

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    #12
    I have a site that's about that age that isn't in the sandbox: arizona manufactured housing.
     
    ResaleBroker, Mar 19, 2005 IP
  13. mizt

    mizt Active Member

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    #13
    If anyone that is good with php programing want to help me right a if statement for my titles. *|Saltwater Fly Fishing Portal . * is the page title of the cms part but since the main page has no title it looks goofy.
     
    mizt, Mar 19, 2005 IP
  14. noppid

    noppid gunnin' for the quota

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    #14
    Be more specific and I'll be glad to assist. :)
     
    noppid, Mar 19, 2005 IP
  15. wendydettmer

    wendydettmer Peon

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    #15
    The issue I think is more that a new site can rank well in the other major search engines and not google, begging the question why google would be different, hence the develipment of the sandbox theory.

    I do agree that it is impossible to do any form of legitimate statistical analysis in regards to this, or any form of real experimental testing, there are just too many unknown variables.
     
    wendydettmer, Mar 19, 2005 IP
  16. skunker

    skunker Guest

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    #16
    LOL, yea. Just a little frustrated here as you can see. Oh well, getting awesome traffic from MSN at the moment.
     
    skunker, Mar 20, 2005 IP
  17. sportsguru

    sportsguru Peon

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    #17
    I know that the Google Sandbox is real. Not sure sandbox is the best name for this or not; but whatever you call it it is real.

    I have a site that is not quite 5 months old. It has 529 Google backlinks (that show) 11,100 Yahoo backlinks and according to Marketleap.com has over 43,000+ backlinks altogether. Doing a Google advanced search for allinurl it is ranked at #2 for a highly competitive COMMERCIAL KEYWORD, #6 for allintext, #6 for allintitle and #6 for backlinks. Yet my site that contains over 7,000 pages of quality content, is in tons of directories - including the Yahoo! Directory has tons of one way links and many reciprocal link partners is not in the top 1,000 results in the Google index.

    My site is squeaky clean, no blackhat SEO, only uses ethical SEO and still is nowhere to be found. Also, the site is not tripping any Google OOP or Dup. content filters as the content is unique and the site has been de-optimized for any COMMERCIAL KEYWORDS.

    I've ranked several domains on page 1 of Google before the so called 'Florida' Update of November 2003 and one domain on page 1 of Google post 'Florida' Update and the main difference I see is the following:

    Before November of 2003 my domain mentioned above would have been on page 1 of Google for highly competitive commercial keywords in about 3 months tops. For the one site I got onto page 1 for highly competitive commercial keywords it took over 6 months. For the latter site it did well in the Google advanced search parameters; but was not in the top 1,000 results and then BAM! one day it was on page 1 where it should have been months earlier.

    IMHO, as someone that has experience the "Sandbox" up close and personal, Google has placed first A. Time delay on ALL new domains of approximately 6 months B. Time delay on backlinks - they don't count at all at first, then say after a couple of months they count like 20% and after 3 months a little more, etc., eventually the links count for 100% and IF the webmaster in question has been working hard at SEO, builiding a large quality site and building up tons of backlinks then he/she is rewarded with page 1 rankings.

    Those that say they have been in the 'Sandbox' for over a year etc., I believe have either been victimized by some really bad SEO, a Google penalty for duplicate content, over-optimization, spam, swapping liinks with link farms, etc. In other words there were OTHER REASONS for why they were not in the top 1,000 of the Google SERPS.

    I would strongly advise all webmasters who THINK that their domain is a victim of the so called 'Sandbox' to first make 100% certain that their page has not tripped any Google penalties for OOP, duplicate content, etc. Check who you are linking to - make sure that you are not linking to any bad neighborhoods. Don't use any tricky re-directs, hidden text or links, cloaking or any other black hat SEO. Also, keep working hard and keep getting QUALITY AND RELEVANT links from sites related to your site. In otherwords don't just wait for the Sandbox to go away. It will eventually; but you need to make sure that everything is in place so that when it does go away, that your site will get the high rankings that you desire.

    So, IMO, the Sandbox or whatever you choose to call it is REAL, it usually lasts about 6 months, and then your page is almost instantly released and page 1 rankings can occur providing that you worked hard at building up sufficient backlinks, etc.

    I believe there are two main reasons why the Sandbox exists. First as a way of dissuading website owners from purchasing text links to artificially inflate their Google PageRank and second I believe it is just a fact that the Google Index is now so huge that the whole process of finding, crawling, indexing a site etc., now just takes longer than it did before the Google Index doubled in size. Again, it used to take 3 months to get onto page 1 (with hard work) now it takes around 6 months (with the same hard work). Or twice as long and we have a Google Index that is twice as large as before. Makes sense to me.

    Again those that THINK that their page has been in the Google 'Sandbox' for 8 months or 11 months or I've even heard some claim for over a year - those webmasters/site owners need to look VERY CLOSELY at the things I mentioned above, regarding possible penalites for OOP, dup. content, spam, poor SEO, blackhat SEO, etc.

    So the Sandbox is REAL, lasts 6 months or so and DOES ALWAYS END. Will your site be on page 1 when it does end? Only if you work your you know what off! Use the 6 months to submit to every quality directory you can, keep optimizing your site's pages (all of them), build up a nice reciprocal links directory, don't use any blackhat SEO, get as many one way links as possible and yes then eventually your site will rank highly on the Google search engine. Build the best content rich website that you can and be patient - the rankings will come.
     
    sportsguru, Mar 20, 2005 IP
  18. ferret77

    ferret77 Heretic

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    #18
    I believe in the box too

    I just had 4-5 sites all 6-8 months old suddenly rank in the google index (top 20 or so)
     
    ferret77, Mar 20, 2005 IP
  19. riziko

    riziko Peon

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    #19
    Nice stats. How did you get so much traffic so quickly?

    If you do a link check in google (with link:www.ww2incolor.com) you can see that google does not recognize any of your backlinks. You need inbound links to get into the search results. MSN reports that you have 200 backlinks (go to the last page for the correct number).
    Well actually you have 173 pages in googles cache. It says 8,130 on the first page put if you keep moving through the pages it stops. The other pages are just links that are not fully indexed (and hence pretty worthless).

    I setup a free account at http://www.g-metrics.com/ to track the real number of indexed pages.

    Ross
     
    riziko, Mar 21, 2005 IP
  20. T0PS3O

    T0PS3O Feel Good PLC

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    #20
    Without telling us what phrases you think you deserve to be top 100 for there's no point in complaining about your ranking.

    Number of pages indexed has nothing to do with. You mentioned a total of 3 links plus 'number of links increased daily...'.

    If the anchor text of each of those links is 'click here' then you can forget about ranking anywhere soon.

    Show us some relevant analysis and we might be able to determine what's the matter.
     
    T0PS3O, Mar 21, 2005 IP